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HR24-200 Sibilance


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55 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   Jacob Braun

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:46 PM

Your HR24 is almost certainly a leased receiver. There are no schematics available to the public and those are quite difficult to get into. Leased means it is DirecTV's property, not yours.
I was curious if you were still running the RCAs from the TV, or if you switched them to come from the receiver to your amp. That could potentially help.

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The postings on this site are my own and do not represent DirecTV's positions, strategies, or opinions.


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#27 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:15 PM

i everyone
doing this from my phone so ill be brief

sibilance is still there and i have tried many things but not turning off dolby.

o answer equip qs, preempt= dared tube analog in only
amp=Macintosh 2100 solid state
speakers=Bozak 302a completely redesigned (isobaric workers outward mid&sweet&new supertweet box) with drastically altered network
power conditioner
a lot of hand tweaking in everything

i too believe the issue is the dvr but have no optical in to test idea
feeding analog to the preempt yielded no improvement

still hoping to find a schematic for the dvr and start hacking
anyone have a schematic ?


If you tune to an SD channel do you still get this problem ?
They are not Dolby Digital 5.1 like the HD channels are.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#28 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

Here is a link to a photo of my system. This should answer a lot of people's questions.
http://audiophile-mu...-component.html

I understand that the equipment is leased.

The Dared preamp has no digital input so let's move on from there.

Yes, I have tried the direct analog feed to the Dared and the problem persists. the problem persists in no other attached peripheral, only the DRV regardless of source.

My Blu-ray is attached in an identical manner (HDMI) and the issue is not present.

My WD-TVLive media streamer is also attached exactly as the DVR (HDMI) and the issue is not present.

Other direct analog sources to the preamp are turntable (Pinoeer PL-L1000a), cassette (Nakamichi 680ZX), and FM tuner (Magnum Dynalab FT-11) also do not experience this issue.

So, IMHO, the issue is the DVR since is the only connected device with the sibilance issue. I can djust the Dolby setting but I am not convinced that this is where the source of the problem lies since two other sources are connected in an identical manner and do not have a sibilance issue.

Has anyone tried different HDMI cables?

#29 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:35 PM

So, IMHO, the issue is the DVR since is the only connected device with the sibilance issue. I can djust the Dolby setting but I am not convinced that this is where the source of the problem lies since two other sources are connected in an identical manner and do not have a sibilance issue.

This takes maybe 5 minutes tops.
Menu, Settings, Audio, Digital Dolby, OFF

If there is not difference repeat and choose ON.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#30 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:13 AM

Checked settings on the DVR and Dolby was already OFF as were settings for Sound Effects.

Checked settings on the TV. Internal speakers are OFF and the set bypasses user settings when speakers are OFF. Turned the speakers ON and checked the settings. Dolby was already OFF. Changed setting to ON (yuk!). Turned Dolby back to OFF. Turned OFF internal speakers.

Called DirecTV and they are coming out Tuesday.

Are there hidden service menus that I could access to check/change the DVR's audio settings?

Edited by inline_phil, 07 October 2012 - 06:27 AM.


#31 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:37 AM

Checked settings on the DVR and Dolby was already OFF as were settings for Sound Effects.

Checked settings on the TV. Internal speakers are OFF and the set bypasses user settings when speakers are OFF. Turned the speakers ON and checked the settings. Dolby was already OFF. Changed setting to ON (yuk!). Turned Dolby back to OFF. Turned OFF internal speakers.

Called DirecTV and they are coming out Tuesday.

Are there hidden service menus that I could access to check/change the DVR's audio settings?


Thanks for checking the Dolby Digital . When the Dolby Digital was OFF in the DVR and ON in the TV that might cause a problem.
IF Dolby Digital was ON in the TV settings I would think Dolby Digital would be ON in the DVR. They should Match when testing.

The Sound Effects basically is nothing more than when you push a wrong button on the remote it makes a "bonk" sound to alert you that you did something wrong.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM, HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#32 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

The DirecTV technician came out and much to my surprise head exactly what I described. I asked if there were hidden menus that he could check and his answer was no. He checked his inventory trying to find a different manufacturer/model we could test swap and alas there was none.

So the plan is this: he gave me his direct number and I will call next month to see if a new pallet of DVRs has arrived. When one comes in and it is not an HR24, we will swap it out to see if it helps. He asked to hear something through my media streamer in comparison and he picked out of all things "Hells Bells" by AC/DC. Not what I would have chosen but it was his request. He was indeed impressed at the extreme detailing of the sound through the streamer but sad at his inability to resolve the problem thorugh the DRV.

In his own words, he knows that he will never have another service call lke this one nor will he be able to explain to others what he so clearly and easily heard. He summed it up succinctly like this: Part of driving a Formula One racecar for a living is the cost of having to drive a mere mortal's Ferrari to work. I think it more like driving a VW to work, but hey, such is life.

So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.

#33 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:09 PM

The DirecTV technician came out and much to my surprise head exactly what I described. I asked if there were hidden menus that he could check and his answer was no. He checked his inventory trying to find a different manufacturer/model we could test swap and alas there was none.

So the plan is this: he gave me his direct number and I will call next month to see if a new pallet of DVRs has arrived. When one comes in and it is not an HR24, we will swap it out to see if it helps...

In his own words, he knows that he will never have another service call lke this one nor will he be able to explain to others what he so clearly and easily heard. He summed it up succinctly like this: Part of driving a Formula One racecar for a living is the cost of having to drive a mere mortal's Ferrari to work. I think it more like driving a VW to work, but hey, such is life.

So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.


Nuh-uh. Bad plan. You should not have to live with this problem, number one; the rest of us are not living with it. Number two, he had absolutely no other DVRs on his truck that you could swap and try? and Number three, you have to wait for him to get one? Sounds like the old Billie Holiday song, "Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me."
It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#34 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:14 PM

Did I miss something? Has it been determined that this is an HR-24 issue, and not a unit specific issue? If not, I certainly wouldn't wait for a non-HR-24 DVR to become available before testing a different unit.

#35 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:35 PM

Did I miss something? Has it been determined that this is an HR-24 issue, and not a unit specific issue? If not, I certainly wouldn't wait for a non-HR-24 DVR to become available before testing a different unit.


Agreed, I think it's his sound system. Old electronics are still usable and put out fine sound quality, but I'd be looking at a new receiver just for TV viewing if I were him. That was my first thought when I read his first post and nothing has changed my mind.

Rich

#36 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:38 PM

Nuh-uh. Bad plan. You should not have to live with this problem, number one; the rest of us are not living with it. Number two, he had absolutely no other DVRs on his truck that you could swap and try? and Number three, you have to wait for him to get one? Sounds like the old Billie Holiday song, "Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me."


Agreed. I'll bet any HR would have produced that ssssssibilance....:lol:

Rich

#37 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.

Have you thought about using a better D to A converter in your system?

The analog outputs are a low priority output on a DirecTV receiver, almost never used for primary sound. How about using something relatively inexpensive like a Musical Fidelity V-DAC or a Pro-ject DAC Box S FL on the digital output of your receiver instead? You are at the mercy of what must be a $1.99 D/A chip inside the HR24, and even with a different model, that won't change. Nose around Audiogon and I bet you can even find a cheap, used Peachtree DACiT. That's a real nice D to A. Obviously make sure you switch the receiver over to the PCM output. These D/As won't know Dolby Digital from a hole in the ground.

Just a suggestion.

I've been an audiofool for years. Right now my listening system has a VPI Classic 2 turntable with a Dynavector 20x2 cartridge, a Plinius 9200 integrated amp, and B&W 804 speakers. Next year I'd like to add John Curl's latest phono stage, the Parasound Halo JC 3 and a better cartridge, maybe a Clearaudio Talismann. Either that, or I'll trade the B&Ws for a pair of the new Magnepan MG 3.7 speakers. I've figured out how to set them up in my room where they would sound awesome. I love Maggies. The only thing stopping me is they would be big and out in the middle of the room. I would first cut out some cardboard versions and see if I could live with them dominating my living room.

I understand your pain. Once you experience sound on this level, it's tough to go back. I actually had to back away from owning audiophile gear for 25 years until I was mature enough to enjoy it even with its flaws. It's only recently I fully got back into the gear. Before, in the 1980s, when I'd play my high end system for someone, they'd say it sounded awesome but I'd be in pain, saying, "Can't you hear the slightly butterscotchy midrange?" or something silly like that. Now when the sound isn't up to par, I can just go, meh. A couple of nights ago, I was listening the the first Return To Forever record, Chick Corea's Light As A Feather album. Deliberately mixed into Chick's electric piano is a boatload of ugly, 1970s distortion. In my past life, I would have never made it to the end of the album side. I would have rejected it, screeching, "What were they thinking?" This time, I heard Airto's percussion instead and went, "Great jazz." To the Average Joe, that may not seem like a big thing. To an audiophile, it is a trick and a half.

Good luck!

Edited by Carl Spock, 12 October 2012 - 02:56 PM.

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#38 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:48 PM

I dont have what I consider an audiophile level system, but I've got some pretty decent gear, and I hear none of that either...

Of course, I would never connect my dvr through the output of my tv to my audio gear either....that just seems completely bass-ackwards to how an audiophile would do it. :lol:

Also, an audiophile has a separate music system from his HT system,and they do not cross into each other. Quite truthfully, the audio being sent by D* is not anywhere near audiophile quality, so it seems like this is a fool's quest. In HD, it's heavily compressed AC-3, much more so that any dvd or BD disk you would rent.

Edited by CCarncross, 12 October 2012 - 01:59 PM.


#39 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

an audiophile has a separate music system from his HT system

True, but how do you know this isn't the case? If all I wanted was two channel analog audio, I could today set up a system with a Mark Levinson ML-7 preamp, a NAD 2600 power amp and a pair of KEF 102.3 speakers, all of which are lying around my house. The KEFs are actually the main speakers in my home theater system. The other pieces are sitting, unused, in my basement.

It may well be the OP has another, main audio system that I'd really like to hear.

I do agree with one thing touched on in your post. I made the point upthread already but I must do it again: I can't help but think the OP is making a huge mistake using his TV for a volume control. The audio sections of televisions are jokes. I've yet to find one that was worth more than a two day old can of skunked beer. The OP seems to be handy, asking now twice for the schematic for the HR24. He can buy in kit form a remote controlled volume control that would use much higher quality parts than the junk that's in his TV. I would definitely remove the TV's volume control from the system if it was me.
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#40 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:59 PM

There seems to be some confusion about how the rig is connected. I use the HDMI To pass digital audio to the TV DACs then the analog output stage of the TV (not the same cheap section that dries the TV speakers but the line outputs). This is a fixed gain output from which other sources are selected via the TV source. See below as to why I believe this is NOT the source of the problem.

I am using this configuration to select what I call elevator music since everything connected to it is either compressed or of non-high end quality and there is no point. (Why would one waste time and money buying an outboard DAC for MP3 quality?)

I agree that the line sstage in the TV is not esoteric but it has no difficulties handling the other sources AND there is no sibilance in any of the other sources. Problem continues to point to the HR24.

It may have been a missed opportunity but we discussed many things, including swapping one to try and it was my call not to do this (I do not believe that the problem is with one HR24 but with them all). Even though you do not hear what I do may mean that your system is not as revealing as mine and as someone else said they had to abandon the high end because of the addiction effect higher and higher quality equipment has on lowering the quantity of acceptable source material.

I do not consider DirecTV to have audiophile quality signals nor do I expect their engineering department in delegating funds to design a power supply that would cost three times what their entire DVR sells for retail. I just hoped that someone else had run into this and knew of a quick fix, but apparently no one has. I was hoping that someone may know of how to access the service menus to see what was adjustable within the unit but even this technician did not and no one has volunteered this either.

So I will wait patiently and see what else I can determine externally resisting the urge to pop the lid and take a peek under the hood. It sounds like a few things to me without knowing anything about the design: 1) weak power supply, 2) ground loops, 3) oscillator instability, or 4) some cheap signal path coupling capacitor (although with a digital signal this is least likely). I've seen too many PC boards to know that budget engineers know anything about these two simple issues, and the HR2 falls into this category.

So folks, I am going to live with it for now. I appreciate the suggestions but I am not convinced that anything suggested would make any difference in its sound. Until next month...

Edited by inline_phil, 14 October 2012 - 04:15 PM.


#41 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:07 PM

I would connect a scope and will see by own eyes ...

#42 OFFLINE   inline_phil

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:17 PM

I was hoping to play pink noise through two sources and using my RTA to demonstrate a measurable effect to the technician but since he verified he heard the issue and he could not tell me how to access the same FLAC file we could not do this.

What would you look for with the scope?

#43 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:17 PM

It may have been a missed opportunity but we discussed many things, including swapping one to try and it was my call not to do this (I do not believe that the problem is with one HR24 but with them all).

You may well be right but how did you determine the problem is with all HR24s and not just yours? As you have noted, there hasn't been a general outcry against the sibilance you hear in your system. There are some very picky people on this forum. Why has no one else complained? You aren't the only audiophile here.
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#44 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 08:52 PM

I was hoping to play pink noise through two sources and using my RTA to demonstrate a measurable effect to the technician but since he verified he heard the issue and he could not tell me how to access the same FLAC file we could not do this.

What would you look for with the scope?


Everything, I would also run FFT on it (it's a digital scope) and get all freqs going thru.

#45 OFFLINE   Dylan

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

I'm pretty doubtful that the problem can be corrected. What could the DVR be doing to the signal while it's digital to cause extra sibilance? Maybe recompressing or transcoding? Not something you can fix or will be different in another unit.

I suspect you just aren't going to be happy with DirecTV's audio on your equipment. Your description sounds to me like a complaint about compression. I think your best bet is going to be to apply EQ (like the THX roll-off) to make it more pleasing.

#46 OFFLINE   Dylan

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:49 AM

Yes, I have tried the direct analog feed to the Dared and the problem persists. the problem persists in no other attached peripheral, only the DRV regardless of source.
...
Has anyone tried different HDMI cables?


You've tested that the problem remains when you connect the DVR to your preamp with analog cables. This eliminates the HDMI cable or anything involving your TV from being the cause.

If you want to compensate for the problem, downstream EQ or processing will be more predictable and effective than cable changes.

#47 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:56 AM

Agreed, I think it's his sound system.


That wasn't the point that I was trying to make.

You may well be right but how did you determine the problem is with all HR24s and not just yours?


This is the point that I was trying to make.

#48 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:21 AM

There seems to be some confusion about how the rig is connected. I use the HDMI To pass digital audio to the TV DACs then the analog output stage of the TV (not the same cheap section that dries the TV speakers but the line outputs). This is a fixed gain output from which other sources are selected via the TV source. See below as to why I believe this is NOT the source of the problem.

I am using this configuration to select what I call elevator music since everything connected to it is either compressed or of non-high end quality and there is no point. (Why would one waste time and money buying an outboard DAC for MP3 quality?)


A good DAC might well eliminate your nagging problem, that's why. And a well recorded, well processed MP3 feed can sound just fine for TV. Why do you think the line output isn't as cheap as the speaker outputs?

You have tried, no, hearing the sound through the TV speakers? (shudder.)

You have swapped your HDMI cables AND ports on the TV?
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#49 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:35 PM

inline_phil does have a point about TV sound.

In general, it is very compressed and with poor response at the frequency extremes.

But this is a problem of the source, not the format. I've heard great sound on some programs. Palladia generally has pretty good sound as everything isn't boosted to 0 VU all the time. There is dynamic range on many musical events on Palladia. Also, my local PBS feed can sound very good. Again, it's not driven as hard as a network channel is.

We should not forget that the PCM output of a DirecTV piece is 16 bit 44.1k, the same as a CD, and a farsight better than a MP3.

I agree with you, Laxguy. Especially if he is having problems, I wouldn't discount the possible improvement a good D/A converter can bring. I assume his TV has a Toslink optical output. He'd have to check, but that may well put out the digital stream that is coming from his HDMI inputs.

There is one remaining problem here. Putting a D/A after the television would eliminate his volume control. He's back to needing one. inline-phil, here's one by Keene I've looked at for years. You'd need to buy an American standard wall wart power supply but that should be under $10.
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#50 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 01:13 PM

sibilance is still there and i have tried many things but not turning off dolby.

There's not much point in leaving it on if you're going to use a simple stereo connection. Dolby signals in the HR2x (and most all modern source devices) travel uniquely over the digital outputs and the RCA outputs (from the DVR or TV) are probably some sort of unencoded analog mash-up of that signal.

GIGO is very much in play here. Putting a piano wire and a couple of cans (the TV DAC) between the source and the pre-amp is unlikely to be satisfactory.

As a check, you might want to see if the RCA outputs of the DVR sound any better than those of the TV. It is important to figure out if the sound is being colored by the TV so you know where to concentrate.

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