Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

HR24-200 Sibilance


  • Please log in to reply
55 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Registered
  • 3,497 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 28 September 2012 - 07:46 PM

I am a fringe high-end audiophile cursed with really sensitive ears. Let's not stoop to the cheap shots and focus instead on solving an issue.

I have a new HR24-200 with a severe sibilance issue. Connecting the HR24-200 to the Samsung 650 series TV via a BetterCables HDMI cable...Has anyone else noticed this extreme exaggeration of SSSSSS sounds regardless of channel from the HR24-200? If so, what did you do to eliminate it?

First, you can assume that anyone who questions your definition of yourself (fringe high-end, sensitive ears) based on what equipment you own has deeper issues and displays their own ignorance by making such a tenuous connection (IOW, consider the source). If it sounds right to you, then it's right for you, period (ignore them). Also, we can only assume that you are indeed such a person. If you were not such a person, there certainly would be a low probability of you merely thinking you were such a person. Rest assured, Phil, the rest of us are with you; we'll begin by not questioning your premise.

I will say this; your ears are not so sensitive or golden that you are imagining sibilance or perceiving it where the rest of us just don't. You do have a real sibilance issue here. That you may have sensitive golden ears is really beside the point; it just makes the fact that there really is sibilance that much more annoying for you, likely.

Sibilance. There are really two definitions; one would be an unusually higher frequency peak in the "s" and "z" consonant range of human speech, compared to the rest of the band. The other is actual distortion at that frequency that sounds very similar, because there is a lot of aggregate energy from the distortion that manifests directly at that same frequency. Most electronic sibilance is of the second type (dropped mics can do this), but it sounds like what you are experiencing is of the first type. So it might aid you, and you have the ears for it, to listen closely to see if there is actual distortion there, or just an abrupt level change there.

Equalization is at best a workaround. It is best to fix the issue at the source. You would also need a 32-band EQ to be able to notch that frequency effectively (and you can't EQ actual distortion, only minimize it). a 12-band or less will distort the response too much for "golden ears". I own a 32, but good luck finding something that can be used in the digital domain or for 5.1. I don't think EQ is your anwer.

The other thing is the nature of digital audio. Once digitized, and assuming all parts are working properly, digital audio can't possibly become distorted without performing math on it; it is completely represented by binary coefficients, and they don't change unless we change them on purpose. Of course if you send digital audio where 0 dBFS is calibrated in the target system at one level into a destination system where it is calibrated at a different level (and that is technically a change in the math), distortion can occur.

But that does not seem to be the problem here either.

Sibilance or any other distortion in properly designed and working digital audio is rare, indeed; that is usually an analog issue (or issssssue, as you are unfortunately used to hearing it. Sorry, couldn't resist). But the critical thing there is "properly...working"; I suspect things are not working as they should, most likely in the DVR, and when things are not working properly, all bets are off and all of "what should be" regarding digital audio is completely out the window.

Audio arrives in your DVR (for HD sources) typically as AC3. It is then decompressed back to PCM for HDMI, I think, and DAC'ed for analog out. If the analog is good, that might point to the AC3 decoding in the DVR as the problem, or not. If both are bad, that points to either a problem in the DVR or the AVR (you could try the HDMI direct into a TV to eliminate the AVR), with that problem most likely close to the DAC or decoder (it may even be the same chip). That all has to work right for things to sound right, and there really isn't much more that could possibly go wrong.

So, the smart money here is on a defective HR24. There is a small possibility of simple idiosyncratic incompatibility between the DVR and AVR, but again, those would be the longer odds.

Were it me, and without more info, I would have the DVR exchanged.
It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#22 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 19,723 posts
  • LocationBay Area
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 28 September 2012 - 09:45 PM

Looks like his golden ears become adapted to the hissing and he is satisfied to that level when our mumbling is not interesting to him anymore.

#23 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,209 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:45 AM

My first post yay!

I just had direct hooked up at my apartment yesterday and love it beyond words. I too noticed this issue on my HR24-200 once the installer left. Currently using a Sony A/V 7.1 receiver and have the HR24, a PS3 and a WDTV Live Hub all hooked up via HDMI. The PS3 and WDTV didn't show the same symptoms, so I went in and switched Dolby Digital off (as was suggested above). Lowered the treble a few points on the A/V receiver for that source and now it sounds beautiful :)


What kind of TV do you have, a Sony or a Samsung? You shouldn't have to switch off DD to get the sound corrected.

Rich

#24 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,209 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:52 AM

Looks like his golden ears become adapted to the hissing and he is satisfied to that level when our mumbling is not interesting to him anymore.


I love it when ssssomeone sssstartssss a thread and jusssst sssstopssss possssting.

Seriously, I find this behavior a bit strange.

Rich

#25 OFFLINE   inline_phil

inline_phil

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 12 posts
Joined: Sep 22, 2012

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:58 AM

i everyone
doing this from my phone so ill be brief

sibilance is still there and i have tried many things but not turning off dolby.

o answer equip qs, preempt= dared tube analog in only
amp=Macintosh 2100 solid state
speakers=Bozak 302a completely redesigned (isobaric workers outward mid&sweet&new supertweet box) with drastically altered network
power conditioner
a lot of hand tweaking in everything

i too believe the issue is the dvr but have no optical in to test idea
feeding analog to the preempt yielded no improvement

still hoping to find a schematic for the dvr and start hacking
anyone have a schematic ?

#26 OFFLINE   JBv

JBv

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 796 posts
  • LocationTulsa, OK
Joined: Oct 05, 2011

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:46 PM

Your HR24 is almost certainly a leased receiver. There are no schematics available to the public and those are quite difficult to get into. Leased means it is DirecTV's property, not yours.
I was curious if you were still running the RCAs from the TV, or if you switched them to come from the receiver to your amp. That could potentially help.
DirecTV Employee
The postings on this site are my own and do not represent DirecTV's positions, strategies, or opinions.

#27 ONLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,188 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 04 October 2012 - 02:15 PM

i everyone
doing this from my phone so ill be brief

sibilance is still there and i have tried many things but not turning off dolby.

o answer equip qs, preempt= dared tube analog in only
amp=Macintosh 2100 solid state
speakers=Bozak 302a completely redesigned (isobaric workers outward mid&sweet&new supertweet box) with drastically altered network
power conditioner
a lot of hand tweaking in everything

i too believe the issue is the dvr but have no optical in to test idea
feeding analog to the preempt yielded no improvement

still hoping to find a schematic for the dvr and start hacking
anyone have a schematic ?


If you tune to an SD channel do you still get this problem ?
They are not Dolby Digital 5.1 like the HD channels are.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#28 OFFLINE   inline_phil

inline_phil

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 12 posts
Joined: Sep 22, 2012

Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

Here is a link to a photo of my system. This should answer a lot of people's questions.
http://audiophile-mu...-component.html

I understand that the equipment is leased.

The Dared preamp has no digital input so let's move on from there.

Yes, I have tried the direct analog feed to the Dared and the problem persists. the problem persists in no other attached peripheral, only the DRV regardless of source.

My Blu-ray is attached in an identical manner (HDMI) and the issue is not present.

My WD-TVLive media streamer is also attached exactly as the DVR (HDMI) and the issue is not present.

Other direct analog sources to the preamp are turntable (Pinoeer PL-L1000a), cassette (Nakamichi 680ZX), and FM tuner (Magnum Dynalab FT-11) also do not experience this issue.

So, IMHO, the issue is the DVR since is the only connected device with the sibilance issue. I can djust the Dolby setting but I am not convinced that this is where the source of the problem lies since two other sources are connected in an identical manner and do not have a sibilance issue.

Has anyone tried different HDMI cables?

#29 ONLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,188 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:35 PM

So, IMHO, the issue is the DVR since is the only connected device with the sibilance issue. I can djust the Dolby setting but I am not convinced that this is where the source of the problem lies since two other sources are connected in an identical manner and do not have a sibilance issue.

This takes maybe 5 minutes tops.
Menu, Settings, Audio, Digital Dolby, OFF

If there is not difference repeat and choose ON.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#30 OFFLINE   inline_phil

inline_phil

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 12 posts
Joined: Sep 22, 2012

Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:13 AM

Checked settings on the DVR and Dolby was already OFF as were settings for Sound Effects.

Checked settings on the TV. Internal speakers are OFF and the set bypasses user settings when speakers are OFF. Turned the speakers ON and checked the settings. Dolby was already OFF. Changed setting to ON (yuk!). Turned Dolby back to OFF. Turned OFF internal speakers.

Called DirecTV and they are coming out Tuesday.

Are there hidden service menus that I could access to check/change the DVR's audio settings?

Edited by inline_phil, 07 October 2012 - 06:27 AM.


#31 ONLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,188 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:37 AM

Checked settings on the DVR and Dolby was already OFF as were settings for Sound Effects.

Checked settings on the TV. Internal speakers are OFF and the set bypasses user settings when speakers are OFF. Turned the speakers ON and checked the settings. Dolby was already OFF. Changed setting to ON (yuk!). Turned Dolby back to OFF. Turned OFF internal speakers.

Called DirecTV and they are coming out Tuesday.

Are there hidden service menus that I could access to check/change the DVR's audio settings?


Thanks for checking the Dolby Digital . When the Dolby Digital was OFF in the DVR and ON in the TV that might cause a problem.
IF Dolby Digital was ON in the TV settings I would think Dolby Digital would be ON in the DVR. They should Match when testing.

The Sound Effects basically is nothing more than when you push a wrong button on the remote it makes a "bonk" sound to alert you that you did something wrong.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#32 OFFLINE   inline_phil

inline_phil

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 12 posts
Joined: Sep 22, 2012

Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

The DirecTV technician came out and much to my surprise head exactly what I described. I asked if there were hidden menus that he could check and his answer was no. He checked his inventory trying to find a different manufacturer/model we could test swap and alas there was none.

So the plan is this: he gave me his direct number and I will call next month to see if a new pallet of DVRs has arrived. When one comes in and it is not an HR24, we will swap it out to see if it helps. He asked to hear something through my media streamer in comparison and he picked out of all things "Hells Bells" by AC/DC. Not what I would have chosen but it was his request. He was indeed impressed at the extreme detailing of the sound through the streamer but sad at his inability to resolve the problem thorugh the DRV.

In his own words, he knows that he will never have another service call lke this one nor will he be able to explain to others what he so clearly and easily heard. He summed it up succinctly like this: Part of driving a Formula One racecar for a living is the cost of having to drive a mere mortal's Ferrari to work. I think it more like driving a VW to work, but hey, such is life.

So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.

#33 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Registered
  • 3,497 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:09 PM

The DirecTV technician came out and much to my surprise head exactly what I described. I asked if there were hidden menus that he could check and his answer was no. He checked his inventory trying to find a different manufacturer/model we could test swap and alas there was none.

So the plan is this: he gave me his direct number and I will call next month to see if a new pallet of DVRs has arrived. When one comes in and it is not an HR24, we will swap it out to see if it helps...

In his own words, he knows that he will never have another service call lke this one nor will he be able to explain to others what he so clearly and easily heard. He summed it up succinctly like this: Part of driving a Formula One racecar for a living is the cost of having to drive a mere mortal's Ferrari to work. I think it more like driving a VW to work, but hey, such is life.

So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.


Nuh-uh. Bad plan. You should not have to live with this problem, number one; the rest of us are not living with it. Number two, he had absolutely no other DVRs on his truck that you could swap and try? and Number three, you have to wait for him to get one? Sounds like the old Billie Holiday song, "Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me."
It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#34 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

Bill Broderick

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,393 posts
  • LocationLong Island
Joined: Aug 25, 2006

Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:14 PM

Did I miss something? Has it been determined that this is an HR-24 issue, and not a unit specific issue? If not, I certainly wouldn't wait for a non-HR-24 DVR to become available before testing a different unit.

#35 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,209 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:35 PM

Did I miss something? Has it been determined that this is an HR-24 issue, and not a unit specific issue? If not, I certainly wouldn't wait for a non-HR-24 DVR to become available before testing a different unit.


Agreed, I think it's his sound system. Old electronics are still usable and put out fine sound quality, but I'd be looking at a new receiver just for TV viewing if I were him. That was my first thought when I read his first post and nothing has changed my mind.

Rich

#36 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,209 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 12 October 2012 - 12:38 PM

Nuh-uh. Bad plan. You should not have to live with this problem, number one; the rest of us are not living with it. Number two, he had absolutely no other DVRs on his truck that you could swap and try? and Number three, you have to wait for him to get one? Sounds like the old Billie Holiday song, "Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me."


Agreed. I'll bet any HR would have produced that ssssssibilance....:lol:

Rich

#37 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

Carl Spock

    Superfly

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,567 posts
Joined: Sep 03, 2004

Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

So the answer is that there is most likley no answer (I am not encouraged with the option of even a different model). I must put up with mediocrity in the audio playback design and when I want to hear quality audio I'll have to flip to the over-the-air broadcasts.

Have you thought about using a better D to A converter in your system?

The analog outputs are a low priority output on a DirecTV receiver, almost never used for primary sound. How about using something relatively inexpensive like a Musical Fidelity V-DAC or a Pro-ject DAC Box S FL on the digital output of your receiver instead? You are at the mercy of what must be a $1.99 D/A chip inside the HR24, and even with a different model, that won't change. Nose around Audiogon and I bet you can even find a cheap, used Peachtree DACiT. That's a real nice D to A. Obviously make sure you switch the receiver over to the PCM output. These D/As won't know Dolby Digital from a hole in the ground.

Just a suggestion.

I've been an audiofool for years. Right now my listening system has a VPI Classic 2 turntable with a Dynavector 20x2 cartridge, a Plinius 9200 integrated amp, and B&W 804 speakers. Next year I'd like to add John Curl's latest phono stage, the Parasound Halo JC 3 and a better cartridge, maybe a Clearaudio Talismann. Either that, or I'll trade the B&Ws for a pair of the new Magnepan MG 3.7 speakers. I've figured out how to set them up in my room where they would sound awesome. I love Maggies. The only thing stopping me is they would be big and out in the middle of the room. I would first cut out some cardboard versions and see if I could live with them dominating my living room.

I understand your pain. Once you experience sound on this level, it's tough to go back. I actually had to back away from owning audiophile gear for 25 years until I was mature enough to enjoy it even with its flaws. It's only recently I fully got back into the gear. Before, in the 1980s, when I'd play my high end system for someone, they'd say it sounded awesome but I'd be in pain, saying, "Can't you hear the slightly butterscotchy midrange?" or something silly like that. Now when the sound isn't up to par, I can just go, meh. A couple of nights ago, I was listening the the first Return To Forever record, Chick Corea's Light As A Feather album. Deliberately mixed into Chick's electric piano is a boatload of ugly, 1970s distortion. In my past life, I would have never made it to the end of the album side. I would have rejected it, screeching, "What were they thinking?" This time, I heard Airto's percussion instead and went, "Great jazz." To the Average Joe, that may not seem like a big thing. To an audiophile, it is a trick and a half.

Good luck!

Edited by Carl Spock, 12 October 2012 - 02:56 PM.

hangin' with the bros at 40 Eridani A

#38 OFFLINE   CCarncross

CCarncross

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 7,058 posts
  • LocationJackson
Joined: Jul 19, 2005

Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:48 PM

I dont have what I consider an audiophile level system, but I've got some pretty decent gear, and I hear none of that either...

Of course, I would never connect my dvr through the output of my tv to my audio gear either....that just seems completely bass-ackwards to how an audiophile would do it. :lol:

Also, an audiophile has a separate music system from his HT system,and they do not cross into each other. Quite truthfully, the audio being sent by D* is not anywhere near audiophile quality, so it seems like this is a fool's quest. In HD, it's heavily compressed AC-3, much more so that any dvd or BD disk you would rent.

Edited by CCarncross, 12 October 2012 - 01:59 PM.


#39 OFFLINE   Carl Spock

Carl Spock

    Superfly

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,567 posts
Joined: Sep 03, 2004

Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

an audiophile has a separate music system from his HT system

True, but how do you know this isn't the case? If all I wanted was two channel analog audio, I could today set up a system with a Mark Levinson ML-7 preamp, a NAD 2600 power amp and a pair of KEF 102.3 speakers, all of which are lying around my house. The KEFs are actually the main speakers in my home theater system. The other pieces are sitting, unused, in my basement.

It may well be the OP has another, main audio system that I'd really like to hear.

I do agree with one thing touched on in your post. I made the point upthread already but I must do it again: I can't help but think the OP is making a huge mistake using his TV for a volume control. The audio sections of televisions are jokes. I've yet to find one that was worth more than a two day old can of skunked beer. The OP seems to be handy, asking now twice for the schematic for the HR24. He can buy in kit form a remote controlled volume control that would use much higher quality parts than the junk that's in his TV. I would definitely remove the TV's volume control from the system if it was me.
hangin' with the bros at 40 Eridani A

#40 OFFLINE   inline_phil

inline_phil

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 12 posts
Joined: Sep 22, 2012

Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:59 PM

There seems to be some confusion about how the rig is connected. I use the HDMI To pass digital audio to the TV DACs then the analog output stage of the TV (not the same cheap section that dries the TV speakers but the line outputs). This is a fixed gain output from which other sources are selected via the TV source. See below as to why I believe this is NOT the source of the problem.

I am using this configuration to select what I call elevator music since everything connected to it is either compressed or of non-high end quality and there is no point. (Why would one waste time and money buying an outboard DAC for MP3 quality?)

I agree that the line sstage in the TV is not esoteric but it has no difficulties handling the other sources AND there is no sibilance in any of the other sources. Problem continues to point to the HR24.

It may have been a missed opportunity but we discussed many things, including swapping one to try and it was my call not to do this (I do not believe that the problem is with one HR24 but with them all). Even though you do not hear what I do may mean that your system is not as revealing as mine and as someone else said they had to abandon the high end because of the addiction effect higher and higher quality equipment has on lowering the quantity of acceptable source material.

I do not consider DirecTV to have audiophile quality signals nor do I expect their engineering department in delegating funds to design a power supply that would cost three times what their entire DVR sells for retail. I just hoped that someone else had run into this and knew of a quick fix, but apparently no one has. I was hoping that someone may know of how to access the service menus to see what was adjustable within the unit but even this technician did not and no one has volunteered this either.

So I will wait patiently and see what else I can determine externally resisting the urge to pop the lid and take a peek under the hood. It sounds like a few things to me without knowing anything about the design: 1) weak power supply, 2) ground loops, 3) oscillator instability, or 4) some cheap signal path coupling capacitor (although with a digital signal this is least likely). I've seen too many PC boards to know that budget engineers know anything about these two simple issues, and the HR2 falls into this category.

So folks, I am going to live with it for now. I appreciate the suggestions but I am not convinced that anything suggested would make any difference in its sound. Until next month...

Edited by inline_phil, 14 October 2012 - 04:15 PM.





spam firewall