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3TB and 4TB Drives. The Danger!


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192 replies to this topic

#101 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:04 AM

If only one Rich did 60, then your number is not correct for sure.


You must have misread my post. I've got about 60 HRs documented by D*. I never opened that many up. I don't know how many of my owned HRs have been opened and had a large HDD installed in them over the years. I'd guess I've opened about 20 or 30. I have to keep external drives on my leased HRs so I can keep track of what's leased and what's owned. Every time an owned HR fails I take the HDD out and put it in it's replacement. I have no real idea how many times I've done this. Four times in the last two months.

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#102 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:06 AM

Does doing about 15 by one person count somehow? ;):D

As for the topic at hand...I'm still trying to comprehend any "danger"... :shrug:

I "get" all the other stuff.


Perhaps "danger" was a bit strong. But you noticed it!... :lol:

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#103 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:18 AM

I guess the "danger" is the possibility of losing your recordings. And while I would not want to, it is not the as a big of issue as it used to be. When DVR's came and I had a TiVo Series 1, if you lost a drive or something didn't record, you were SOL until it that episode came back as a rerun.


That's what I was thinking when I used that word. No real DANGER. Just a word to catch your attention.

Today, it is not the issue it was because you can always watch it online or buy it from iTunes. But still I don't want to lose everything.


I've got that covered, but it cost me. I'd hate to lose, say, 3.5TBs of recordings just because an HR failed. If the HDD failed, I'd understand that, but the massive amounts of recordings some folks put on their HRs and have the HR go south are surely losses that are felt by those folks.

One thing you have here, and the providers have help people buy into it with larger and larger hard drives, is that we now use DRV's for archiving as much as time-shifting. There are some shows that get watched later the same day or within the week. There are others that will stack up and get watched say over Thanksgiving week when no new shows are on.


I can actually archive recordings. If I put the same show on five or six HRs, what are the odds of all of them failing? But I don't. I like to keep my HDDs partly empty, they seem to run much better that way. There's really nothing out there that I want to archive.

At that point, I think they have a responsibility to do all they can to allow the customer to save their content should there be a box failure. Now they can't do anything about drive failure, but they can about other types of receiver failures.


And that's the point of this thread.

Rich

#104 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:29 AM

Perhaps "danger" was a bit strong. But you noticed it!... :lol:

Yup....but this would have worked too...

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Danger...danger....danger.... :D
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#105 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:45 AM

That's the wall we hit every time we start a thread such as this. If people understood the benefits of an external drive, I think they'd go for it.

My wife was at a business dinner recently and someone brought up D*. After a bit of listening, she told the table about the system we have and, while several people had D*, they had no idea what MRV was. That surprised me. It's not like D* didn't advertise it when it was introduced. People just seem to tune out what they don't understand. My point being, if folks don't know about a fully supported function, one that was widely advertised, how are they gonna know and understand an unsupported and unadvertised function such as the eSATA function?

Not that I want to see D* go into the external drive business. I like the freedom to choose my HDDs myself. And my external devices.

Kind of a quandary, no?

Rich


That's an interesting story. I had always assumed that the lack of interest in external drives was caused by MRV...why attach another drive when (for roughly the same price) you can have another DVR instead of a basic receiver in the bedroom, double your disk space, gain an extra couple of recording tuners and still watch where you want. If people aren't using MRV, I don't know how they manage the limited diskspace, particularly on the HR20 and HR21 models.

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#106 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:07 AM

I'd guess I've opened about 20 or 30. I have to keep external drives on my leased HRs so I can keep track of what's leased and what's owned. Every time an owned HR fails I take the HDD out and put it in it's replacement. I have no real idea how many times I've done this. Four times in the last two months.

In all (or at least most) of these cases, it was the receiver that failed and not the hard drive?

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#107 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:30 AM

That's an interesting story. I had always assumed that the lack of interest in external drives was caused by MRV...why attach another drive when (for roughly the same price) you can have another DVR instead of a basic receiver in the bedroom, double your disk space, gain an extra couple of recording tuners and still watch where you want. If people aren't using MRV, I don't know how they manage the limited diskspace, particularly on the HR20 and HR21 models.


No, the lack of interest in externals goes much farther back than MRV. We've been asking for the ability to have all HDDs recorded within an account read by any HR within the same account for years. I've been time shifting since the mid '80s and I had twelve VCRs running off cable receivers before I made the shift to D* and discovered DVRs. That was back when all the DVRs only recorded SD shows. As soon as the HRs came out and I discovered the eSATA function, I started putting externals on all my HRs.

I've always wondered how someone with a stock HDD in a 20 or 21 coped. Guess they just make do. So many families with kids and both parents working and just not enough time to watch TV, perhaps? I dunno.

Rich

#108 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 10:38 AM

In all (or at least most) of these cases, it was the receiver that failed and not the hard drive?


Yup. I really haven't had much trouble with HDDs. With my Tivos, it seemed like I was constantly changing HDDs. Refreshing change, the HRs have been.

Of course, every eSATA (all-in-one devices) that failed for quite a while was thought to have a bad HDD. We proved to my satisfaction that the external devices were the problem, not the HDD. In most cases.

I can only remember one internal HDD that failed.

When you get the blue screen that says your storage device is shot, that doesn't always mean the external HDD is bad, it's usually the external device not the HDD.

Rich

#109 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

The enclosures are the weak link in the chain. I've had many failures.

Rich


True, but I was mostly focused on his flame of $99 HDDs and cheap cables.

The only enclosure I've had fail was my original Free Agent Pro when we first got eSATA. That wasn't the enclosure even, it was the power supply.
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#110 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:24 PM

True, but I was mostly focused on his flame of $99 HDDs and cheap cables.

The only enclosure I've had fail was my original Free Agent Pro when we first got eSATA. That wasn't the enclosure even, it was the power supply.


Did you think of ripping the HDD out of the enclosure? Took me a while to figure that out. Also took me a while to figure out how to get the HDD out of that enclosure. The Xtremes were even harder, they didn't want to let go of those HDDs.... :lol:

Cheap cables? I use them all the time and they work well.

$99 HDDs? Those same HDDs used to cost ~ $300 and I haven't seen that $99 price since the floods. The last HDD I bought before the floods cost me $69 for a 2TB EARS. Last one I bought recently cost me $128. Same model and size.

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#111 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:38 PM

Did you think of ripping the HDD out of the enclosure? Took me a while to figure that out. Also took me a while to figure out how to get the HDD out of that enclosure. The Xtremes were even harder, they didn't want to let go of those HDDs.... :lol:


Oh, when it failed I pulled the drive out and put it in another enclosure and had no problems. Shortly thereafter I swapped that drive (750G) for 1TB using the xfsdump/xfsrestore method.

Cheap cables? I use them all the time and they work well.


Same here. They are the same quality as the cables inside the DVRs so I'm not sure why someone would think those cables would be worse than what's inside. *shrug*

$99 HDDs? Those same HDDs used to cost ~ $300 and I haven't seen that $99 price since the floods. The last HDD I bought before the floods cost me $69 for a 2TB EARS. Last one I bought recently cost me $128. Same model and size.


I can't really comment on price, I get my drives at cost. However prices have come back down and stock has caught back up. Newegg had 2TB drives last week for $99. Those $99 drives are of the same, or better, quality so again not sure why someone would think the drives we buy would be worse.
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#112 OFFLINE   JonW

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:51 PM

I think it saves DirecTv a ton of money. Because all your recordings are locked away and tied to a specific DVR, the last thing you ever want to do is upgrade that DVR, or swap it out. You can't just swap DVRs or even service, you have to run the old side by side with the new until you've watched enough of your backlog to let it go.

If you've been archiving shows, you're just out of luck.

#113 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:57 PM

The fact is there isn't a demand because your average consumer just doesn't need it. If HD storage space was a primary driver of consumers needs for a DVR then cable companies would have increased their HD years ago.

This board is full of power users and even here only a small % use them. I'd be interested to see what % of DISH subs use this feature and it has everything that people here are asking for. I still bet it's a small % of DVR users that have the ability to do so.
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#114 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:19 PM

I think it saves DirecTv a ton of money. Because all your recordings are locked away and tied to a specific DVR, the last thing you ever want to do is upgrade that DVR, or swap it out.


That's an interesting point. I'm going through that right now. I've been debating an upgrade to an HR-34, but didn't want to deal with losing the programming that I already have. Recently, I did a system test on my HR-20, and it's telling me that I have a hard drive problem and that I should call DirecTV.

Because it looks like I may need to replace my HR-20 anyway, now I'm back thinking about getting an HR-34. I'm actively trying to watch everything that's already recorded on the HR-20 and am shifting as many of the "season passes" that are currently on the HR-20 off to my other DVR's, so that when I finally do upgrade, I'm not going to lose anything that I care about.

#115 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:46 PM

I think it saves DirecTv a ton of money. Because all your recordings are locked away and tied to a specific DVR, the last thing you ever want to do is upgrade that DVR, or swap it out. You can't just swap DVRs or even service, you have to run the old side by side with the new until you've watched enough of your backlog to let it go.

If you've been archiving shows, you're just out of luck.


Perhaps you can explain the savings? If a customer orders another receiver and then pays the additional TV fee on it until they're done watching it then they would make money.

That's an interesting point. I'm going through that right now. I've been debating an upgrade to an HR-34, but didn't want to deal with losing the programming that I already have. Recently, I did a system test on my HR-20, and it's telling me that I have a hard drive problem and that I should call DirecTV.

Because it looks like I may need to replace my HR-20 anyway, now I'm back thinking about getting an HR-34. I'm actively trying to watch everything that's already recorded on the HR-20 and am shifting as many of the "season passes" that are currently on the HR-20 off to my other DVR's, so that when I finally do upgrade, I'm not going to lose anything that I care about.



If you ordered the HR34 and had it installed how long would it take you to watch the stuff on there? 3 months of an additional TV fee is $18.
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#116 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:13 PM

Darn it! I just screwed up my post... :lol:

Edited by inkahauts, 03 October 2012 - 02:19 PM.


#117 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:18 PM

Lets put it this way, my mom is a danger to electronics when she's is dusting them, so yeah, there is a danger in people opening up the units... :lol:

Now that is just plain.... !rolling

Mrs HDTVFan must have some of the same DNA in terms of that trait. :D:lol:
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#118 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:22 PM

I just don't thin the majority of people understand the concept of recording everything and watching latter, much less the need for more space if they are coming from cable where they had maybe 20 hours of recording space an snow have four or five times that.

People often don't get these concepts unless they. Are explained to them in a store or in their home by someone else who gets it.

#119 OFFLINE   unixguru

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 06:01 PM

The fact is there isn't a demand because your average consumer just doesn't need it. If HD storage space was a primary driver of consumers needs for a DVR then cable companies would have increased their HD years ago.

This board is full of power users and even here only a small % use them. I'd be interested to see what % of DISH subs use this feature and it has everything that people here are asking for. I still bet it's a small % of DVR users that have the ability to do so.


Since we are talking about low consumer demand, why did the 2GB limit get removed for the HR34? If the logic is that DTV never does something unless there is a lot of demand then that change would never have been made. I've never met a Product Manager yet that was in favor of spending any time/money on upgrading core technology just to stay current with technology trends.

It sure wasn't done to make the few external storage geeks happy since it's not supported at all.

That means that larger internal storage is coming - because there is demand for it. It's a duh moment for a device marketed as a "Home Media Server".

The gist of this thread, whether internal or external storage, is that as the capacity rises people will be utilizing it and the reaction to a device failure is going to be hotter.

I'm sure the average consumer has not a care in the world about RAID storage either. They don't even have a clue that such a thing is available. But I would be surprised if any consumer was happy about a DTV DVR failure! If they were aware that technology existed that prevented loss from a drive failure they would WANT IT. Likewise if they knew their programming could be easily transferred if the box died, they would WANT IT. Neither of these is difficult.

What is a moderate irritation today is going to be a whole world of hurt when an "average consumer" finds out that >2TB of programming for their entire household is GONE.

It's just lame that a "Home Media Server" was even brought to market without both of these issues being addressed. It should have had at least 2 (RAID1) "storage cartridges" (ie consumer removable disk magazines). If Joe Consumer (and Joe Installer) can handle inserting and removing CDs and DVDs they can sure handle a disk cartridge. I can recall my 5-year-old son swapping Nintendo cartridges!

The obvious solution now is for DTV to come out with an HR34 model without internal storage and sell something similar to a TenBox (only with removable drives). And fix the program locking.

The extra cost always comes up when talking about RAID. It's a short-sighted perspective. How much programming is recorded on your DVR that you haven't watched yet? How much is it worth to you - or more like how much did you already pay for it? And how much of it won't be rebroadcast anytime soon? It doesn't take long before the insurance offered by RAID is dirt cheap. For me, I've had 2 drives fail in the last 5 years. The programming that was saved, not to mention the aggravation avoided, was easily worth the expense of RAID.

#120 OFFLINE   acostapimps

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:28 PM

I have a question I have a WD 1TB EHD that I had for a year and never had any problems with it, but one time will I was moving stuff around and i accidentally bump the external and fell but not too badly, and when i hooked it back up again I didn't think much of it until recently having picture freezing occasionally and the DVR won't respond and to had to reset and DVR would all of a sudden won't recognize the EHD and heard which sounded like a clicking sounds repeatedly from EHD,and all of a sudden started to work again and the clicking sound disappeared and started to spin normally and DVR recognized it again, is this a sign of EHD failing?

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