Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

3TB and 4TB Drives. The Danger!


  • Please log in to reply
192 replies to this topic

#121 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 20,058 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:52 PM

it sort of total offtopic (yes, the drive is bad - you'll need another one )
:backtotop:

...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#122 OFFLINE   Herdfan

Herdfan

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 6,083 posts
  • LocationTeays Valley, WV
Joined: Mar 18, 2006

Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:03 AM

I've always wondered how someone with a stock HDD in a 20 or 21 coped. Guess they just make do. So many families with kids and both parents working and just not enough time to watch TV, perhaps? I dunno.


That is the main reason for the need for large hard drives. I get the time to watch maybe an hour of TV per day. So if I want to be able to watch my shows, then I need to be able to store it for when I can watch it. If networks didn't take breaks in the middle of the season, I don't think I would ever catch up.

I think it saves DirecTv a ton of money. Because all your recordings are locked away and tied to a specific DVR, the last thing you ever want to do is upgrade that DVR, or swap it out. You can't just swap DVRs or even service, you have to run the old side by side with the new until you've watched enough of your backlog to let it go.


Perhaps you can explain the savings? If a customer orders another receiver and then pays the additional TV fee on it until they're done watching it then they would make money.


It saves and make them money. It isn't hard to imagine that if recordings on an eSATA from an HR21 could be moved to an HR24, that there would be a higher than normal failure rate on HR21's. And it make them money because as noted, I have my old HR20-700 doing nothing but serving up recordings.

Edited by Herdfan, 04 October 2012 - 07:41 AM.

My Setup

 

 


#123 OFFLINE   docderwood

docderwood

    Mentor

  • Registered
  • 36 posts
Joined: Oct 27, 2006

Posted 04 October 2012 - 08:43 AM

Since we are talking about low consumer demand, why did the 2GB limit get removed for the HR34? If the logic is that DTV never does something unless there is a lot of demand then that change would never have been made. I've never met a Product Manager yet that was in favor of spending any time/money on upgrading core technology just to stay current with technology trends.

It sure wasn't done to make the few external storage geeks happy since it's not supported at all.

That means that larger internal storage is coming - because there is demand for it. It's a duh moment for a device marketed as a "Home Media Server".

The gist of this thread, whether internal or external storage, is that as the capacity rises people will be utilizing it and the reaction to a device failure is going to be hotter.

I'm sure the average consumer has not a care in the world about RAID storage either. They don't even have a clue that such a thing is available. But I would be surprised if any consumer was happy about a DTV DVR failure! If they were aware that technology existed that prevented loss from a drive failure they would WANT IT. Likewise if they knew their programming could be easily transferred if the box died, they would WANT IT. Neither of these is difficult.

What is a moderate irritation today is going to be a whole world of hurt when an "average consumer" finds out that >2TB of programming for their entire household is GONE.

It's just lame that a "Home Media Server" was even brought to market without both of these issues being addressed. It should have had at least 2 (RAID1) "storage cartridges" (ie consumer removable disk magazines). If Joe Consumer (and Joe Installer) can handle inserting and removing CDs and DVDs they can sure handle a disk cartridge. I can recall my 5-year-old son swapping Nintendo cartridges!

The obvious solution now is for DTV to come out with an HR34 model without internal storage and sell something similar to a TenBox (only with removable drives). And fix the program locking.

The extra cost always comes up when talking about RAID. It's a short-sighted perspective. How much programming is recorded on your DVR that you haven't watched yet? How much is it worth to you - or more like how much did you already pay for it? And how much of it won't be rebroadcast anytime soon? It doesn't take long before the insurance offered by RAID is dirt cheap. For me, I've had 2 drives fail in the last 5 years. The programming that was saved, not to mention the aggravation avoided, was easily worth the expense of RAID.


Well written post. What I'd REALLY like is the ability to use a NAS on my network to backup/store stuff on the HR34.

#124 OFFLINE   bobcamp1

bobcamp1

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 895 posts
Joined: Nov 08, 2007

Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:54 AM

I just don't thin the majority of people understand the concept of recording everything and watching latter, much less the need for more space if they are coming from cable where they had maybe 20 hours of recording space an snow have four or five times that.

People often don't get these concepts unless they. Are explained to them in a store or in their home by someone else who gets it.


The majority don't record EVERYTHING, just what they know they'll watch later. I think it's called, "having a life outside of TV", which I'm not familiar with. My parents never have more than 4 shows in their playlist. They record, watch it later that day or the next, then delete it. They just have 5 or 6 series links. They love their DVR, and it's from TWC (no accounting for taste)!

If you think about it, if some people only have an hour or two each day to watch TV, why do they record at a rate more than that? That'll produce a backlog of recorded shows that will never be watched. It's kind of like an electronic version of hoarding. If you wait longer than 6 months to watch it, the DVD for it will be out anyway. Just delete the unwatched show and let it go. :D

I'm somewhere in between. My main 500 GB drive is never more than 80% full with four people using it. We do have shows from the last month or two but that's about it. The only exception is recordings of movies during the premium channels' free preview weekends. I don't know why we record them -- we never watch those movies and end up deleting them a year later still unwatched.

#125 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 21,476 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:16 AM

The fact is there isn't a demand because your average consumer just doesn't need it. If HD storage space was a primary driver of consumers needs for a DVR then cable companies would have increased their HD years ago.

This board is full of power users and even here only a small % use them. I'd be interested to see what % of DISH subs use this feature and it has everything that people here are asking for. I still bet it's a small % of DVR users that have the ability to do so.


That's the answer I've been getting for years. I believe it. I think it's typical of the Great American Herd to ignore the good things technology can provide. Or just not understand it. I don't think the eSATA function is a "good" thing, I think (hell, I know) it's a "great" thing.

But, I do believe you're correct in your assumptions.

Rich

#126 OFFLINE   rbpeirce

rbpeirce

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 431 posts
Joined: Feb 23, 2006

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:30 AM

FYI, OSX is BSD which is a variant of Linux.


Other way around. BSD is a variant of AT&T Unix and Linux came later as a way to get a PD form that was very similar.

Over the years they have gone slightly different ways but I am willing to bet that C source code for Linux programs would compile under OS X without too much trouble if it ran in a terminal window. There might be issues with libraries, but that might only be an issue for programs specifically needing Linux capabilities not present in BSD.

As an example, I had source from the old Unix ToolChest (System III) that I was able to compile with no problem under OS X. However, much of that has been replaced by GNU programs which I guess is the Unix variant of Linux.

#127 OFFLINE   CCarncross

CCarncross

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 7,058 posts
  • LocationJackson
Joined: Jul 19, 2005

Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:38 AM

I've been using eSATA setups on my HR2x's since 2006, in all that time I've only lost 2 HDD's between my 3 DVR's....but several had been upgraded multiple times as larger capacity hdd's hit that pricepoint...like going from 1TB drives a few years ago, to 1.5TB, and finally 2TB's where I sit until they increase the allowable size on the HR2x line.

#128 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 21,476 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 04 October 2012 - 11:59 AM

I've been using eSATA setups on my HR2x's since 2006, in all that time I've only lost 2 HDD's between my 3 DVR's....but several had been upgraded multiple times as larger capacity hdd's hit that pricepoint...like going from 1TB drives a few years ago, to 1.5TB, and finally 2TB's where I sit until they increase the allowable size on the HR2x line.


That's what I did too. Spent a lot of money doing it. With multiple HRs, I don't think I really need an HDD larger than 2TBs. Very rarely do I ever approach 20% Available on any of my HRs.

Rich

#129 OFFLINE   Drew2k

Drew2k

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,063 posts
Joined: Aug 16, 2006

Posted 04 October 2012 - 12:18 PM

[The Home Media Server] should have had at least 2 (RAID1) "storage cartridges" (ie consumer removable disk magazines). If Joe Consumer (and Joe Installer) can handle inserting and removing CDs and DVDs they can sure handle a disk cartridge. I can recall my 5-year-old son swapping Nintendo cartridges!

The obvious solution now is for DTV to come out with an HR34 model without internal storage and sell something similar to a TenBox (only with removable drives). And fix the program locking.

For several years HP sold a PC with a drive bay where users could plug in a USB drive and swap it out at will. It looked great and worked well, but HP stopped doing it because the plug-in drives were of course proprietary, undersized and expensive.

I love your idea of extending this to the HMC, and either allowing users to swap drives or if nothing else, giving techs spare drives to plug in during a service call. It's plug-and-play at its simplest.

This would require a much larger chassis, though, and likely will raise the cost of the devices, so unfortunately I don't see it happening. Would be really nice though ...

#130 OFFLINE   Richierich

Richierich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 8,479 posts
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:10 PM

That's what I did too. Spent a lot of money doing it. With multiple HRs, I don't think I really need an HDD larger than 2TBs. Very rarely do I ever approach 20% Available on any of my HRs.

Rich


I spent a lot of money buying Owned DVRs so I could Upgrade the Internal Hard Drives with 2 TB Hard Drives and now I am happy to have 7 DVRs with 14 Terabytes of Hard Drive Capacity.

3 of my 7 DVRs Backup the other 4 DVRs and that is their Sole Purpose.

And I just Love my WHDVR Service.
*
DIRECTV CUSTOMER SINCE 1997
Here's My Setup

#131 OFFLINE   Herdfan

Herdfan

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 6,083 posts
  • LocationTeays Valley, WV
Joined: Mar 18, 2006

Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:24 AM

If you think about it, if some people only have an hour or two each day to watch TV, why do they record at a rate more than that? That'll produce a backlog of recorded shows that will never be watched. It's kind of like an electronic version of hoarding.


I do kind of agree on the hoarding comment. :)

We over-record, but we do so for the times where are no new network shows on. Take the week before Thanksgiving. There will be no new shows on, so nothing will be recording. We will use this time to check out new series. For example, we are recording Vegas. We watched the Pilot and liked it, but not enough yet to have it bump 5-0 or Castle or Person of Interest. So episodes will pile up and we will get to it when nothing new is available. The network season is getting shorter and shorter, so we just make sure we always have something new.

My Setup

 

 


#132 OFFLINE   bobcamp1

bobcamp1

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 895 posts
Joined: Nov 08, 2007

Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:37 AM

I've been using eSATA setups on my HR2x's since 2006, in all that time I've only lost 2 HDD's between my 3 DVR's....but several had been upgraded multiple times as larger capacity hdd's hit that pricepoint...like going from 1TB drives a few years ago, to 1.5TB, and finally 2TB's where I sit until they increase the allowable size on the HR2x line.


Only the HR34 will ever support more that a 2.2 TB hard drive. There is a universal barrier at play here. Older PCs using BIOS also can't ever support more than 2.2 TB. The fix for the older receivers involves a significant firmware change and either playing games with the partition table (always dangerous) or formatting the hard drive, which would tick off just about everybody. It may even be a chipset limitation which would make it physically impossible.

In fact, I think the HR34 is the only DVR on this planet today that supports more than 2.2 TB hard drives.

#133 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,423 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:28 AM

The fact is there isn't a demand because your average consumer just doesn't need it.

I disagree. In the case of the DIRECTV implementation, there are a number of impediments:
  • users can't bring themselves to "waste" the internal drive
  • little to no marketing of the feature
  • weak official documentation of the feature
  • uncertainty of what hardware will get you what you want
  • significantly more hardware combinations don't work 100% than do
  • having to reprogram recording preferences with each drive
  • all of your eggs in a bigger basket that cannot survive a DVR failure

If HD storage space was a primary driver of consumers needs for a DVR then cable companies would have increased their HD years ago.

Most cable DVRs don't need a whole lot of space because so much of the content is instantly available via VOD. Some cable setups don't even require a DVR for VOD. DIRECTV can't provide that kind of VOD accessibility so their customers need to store it locally.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#134 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,423 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:32 AM

Older PCs using BIOS also can't ever support more than 2.2 TB.

You have to go back to Y2K's demon child, Windows Me, to find an operating system that relies on the motherboard BIOS for its low level hard drive functions.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#135 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 20,058 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 05 October 2012 - 11:11 AM

Only the HR34 will ever support more that a 2.2 TB hard drive. There is a universal barrier at play here. Older PCs using BIOS also can't ever support more than 2.2 TB. The fix for the older receivers involves a significant firmware change and either playing games with the partition table (always dangerous) or formatting the hard drive, which would tick off just about everybody. It may even be a chipset limitation which would make it physically impossible.

In fact, I think the HR34 is the only DVR on this planet today that supports more than 2.2 TB hard drives.


Where is a 'magic' number 2.2 came from ?

No one did post partitioning of the HR34 with 3 TB drive. I would say it's using 2 TB of total space these 3/4 TB drives.

Dish is supporting 3 TB for EHD.

No need to do "a significant firmware change" (why you exaggerating ?), just a few changes related to buffer size (512->4096) and corresponding use of it.

#136 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

RunnerFL

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 16,071 posts
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Posted 05 October 2012 - 12:52 PM

No one did post partitioning of the HR34 with 3 TB drive. I would say it's using 2 TB of total space these 3/4 TB drives.


And you would be wrong... I'm pretty sure I posted the partition information and it is using all 3TB of a 3TB drive, all 4TB of a 4TB JBOD, all 6TB of a 6TB JBOD and all 12TB of a 12TB JBOD. My 9TB RAID 5 Array is using all 9TB.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

#137 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 21,476 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:26 PM

And you would be wrong... I'm pretty sure I posted the partition information and it is using all 3TB of a 3TB drive, all 4TB of a 4TB JBOD, all 6TB of a 6TB JBOD and all 12TB of a 12TB JBOD. My 9TB RAID 5 Array is using all 9TB.


Don't understand that. I know what a JBOD is but I don't understand what you're doing with all of the setups. In short, I'm lost. Whoosh.

Rich

#138 OFFLINE   palmgrower

palmgrower

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 92 posts
Joined: Jul 18, 2011

Posted 05 October 2012 - 01:52 PM

I'm lost as well, please explain.

2- HR24-500 with AM21n OTA's & RC65RBX Backlit Remotes
1- HR34-700 with AM21n OTA & RC65RBX Backlit Remote
2- Samsung PN59D8000 Plasmas
Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000
Televes DAT 75 Deep Fringe UHF
DIRECTV AU9-SWM-13 LNB


#139 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,423 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:08 PM

Dish is supporting 3 TB for EHD.

I'm relatively certain that this is a false statement.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#140 OFFLINE   bobcamp1

bobcamp1

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 895 posts
Joined: Nov 08, 2007

Posted 05 October 2012 - 02:08 PM

Where is a 'magic' number 2.2 came from ?

No one did post partitioning of the HR34 with 3 TB drive. I would say it's using 2 TB of total space these 3/4 TB drives.

Dish is supporting 3 TB for EHD.

No need to do "a significant firmware change" (why you exaggerating ?), just a few changes related to buffer size (512->4096) and corresponding use of it.


The MBR can only support 2^32 unique LBAs, because it only supports 32-bit values for them.

2^32 * 512 bytes/sector = 2.2 TB. No partition can go past the 2.2 TB point on the hard drive when using MBR.

You need to replace the MBR with a GPT, update all the built-in disk tools (ex. gdisk not fdisk) accordingly, and whatever little misc. things the software and/or firmware might need to get it to work. It's not trivial, especially when trying to do it remotely for millions of customers with existing boxes full of recordings they'd like to keep.

It's a lot easier to do what D* did -- create a new branch of software for a new device and have that device support it from its initial release.

It was thought that advanced format drives would set this limitation to 17.6 TB, but to make them backward compatible they emulated 512 bytes/sector. Each one of those emulated sectors needs a unique LBA entry, and you have the same exact problem.

The THR22-100 (and all Tivos) have the same problem, as the Apple Partition Manager is also limited to 32-bit LBA entries.

Edited by bobcamp1, 05 October 2012 - 02:15 PM.





Protected By... spam firewall...And...