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Gannett Hopping Mad Over 'Hopper' -- Longterm agreement reached!


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186 replies to this topic

#81 OFFLINE   coldsteel

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:50 AM

Sounds more like, once again, Dish will be the one smacked back into line. Talk about an ethically bankrupt group of executives. They learned that from Charlie.


Wow. Just... wow. Really? Hoosier, you REALLY need to take a step back and re-evaluate yourself. I understand you're a D* fanboy, but this is a bit extreme.
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#82 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:03 AM

Wow. Just... wow. Really? Hoosier, you REALLY need to take a step back and re-evaluate yourself. I understand you're a D* fanboy, but this is a bit extreme.


Really? TiVo, Voom, AutoHop, etc. The list is a mile long.

That's all I will say on the topic. I normally see nothing but humor in all of the squabbles Dish/Charlie create, except the ones that could impact the entire industry.
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#83 OFFLINE   bills976

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:15 AM

This is all on the networks for failing to adapt to new technology. When the music industry failed to adapt, we saw the rise of Napster, bittorrent, and other technology that circumvented their entrenched, lucrative business model. The RIAA tried to fight against this in court, and was somewhat successful, but in the end you now see songs up for sale at $.99/pop. That's the price that people are willing to pay for that content.

I don't see anything different here. A new technology comes out, in this case, it's auto-skipping commercials. Instead of looking at alternative revenue models (product placement, micro-payments that would allow auto-hopping for a particular show, etc), the networks instead balk, increase rates, and file lawsuits preventing the use of new technology. This just serves to anger the end consumer who then looks at alternative forms of entertainment - $1 Redbox rentals, sharing a subscription over Slingbox, free OTA broadcasts, illegal streaming of content, etc.

If I were one of the major providers (Dish, DirecTV, Time Warner, etc) I would be very, very careful not to tip over the apple cart. On the one hand, your paying customers are getting fed up with increased rates that you have no choice but to pass on as a result of draconian content agreements with providers. On the other, your shareholders are balking at slow growing revenue, which is due in large part to perpetually increasing rates. On yet another, the networks are demanding more and more money in exchange for less original content, more restrictions on that content, and a larger say in the way that you package your product to your customers. It is not a good time to be in Charlie's shoes.
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#84 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:20 AM

D* has had this ability for a number of years but elected not to put it out there for any number of reasons, including those that are surfacing now.

http://www.forbes.co...ing-technology/


hmmmmm
never saw this article before, but it sort of validates what I said.

Let Dish test the waters.

I don't believe for a moment that DTV customers wouldn't like to have this option. "Raging demand" or not.

Which makes me wonder, how many hoppa people out there?

Also, what ever happened to the TV [ don't remember the brand] that lowered volume during commercials? That went away quietly [ probably had the same hassle from broacasters]

I understand the need to make money to stay in business, but strongarm tactics are like the block bully, either cross the street, or go in swinging.

Sorry, I don't know anyone who wants to sit through commercials because they enjoy it. With all the work-arounds to avoid commercials, one would think the networks would develop a better plan for revenue or [my big gripe here] commercials that are appealing. Of course after running that hundreds of times no one pays attention to that either.

This isn't the 60's where the family gathers around the tv and will watch Anything on it just because that's all there is.

The game has changed, period.

#85 OFFLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:28 AM

DISH Headquarters is about 5 miles from the two Denver stations (KUSA and KTVD). The crawls are running on the two stations. This could actually become something nasty fro DISH because of them being Denver based and the local media may not be too kind to them.

Of course, at one time NBC had NFL football, and if the Broncos were knocked off DISH, this town would be having an uprising.

As for Gannet wanting a 300% increase; it has been said before television stations should be paying to be on a system, not the other way around. Considering they get revenue from ads, this is just corporate greed.


The stations should pay cable, Dish, DirecTV. The system is backwards.

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#86 OFFLINE   kenglish

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:38 AM

The problem is that DISH is actively assisting the viewers with skipping the commercials, by timing the shows and sending data to the Hopper, so it knows when to skip the ads.
If DISH quit that part, the "DVR-Like" arguments would be OK....but, you'd just have a DVR, and you'd have to manually skip everything.

#87 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

If DISH quit that part, the "DVR-Like" arguments would be OK....but, you'd just have a DVR, and you'd have to manually skip everything.

A few years ago (ok, decades) the broadcasters were all annoyed about the possibility of recording their programs. They lost that battle.

Recently it seems that they have been winning ... with restrictions built in to DVRs that make it harder to share recordings at full quality being common. At least in DVRs designed for cable and satellite vendors who are under a great deal of pressure not to tick off broadcasters.

I would hate to see DISH pressured to remove innovation from their receivers.

#88 ONLINE   Henry

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:15 PM

I am one of those that do not have a Hopper. On the other hand, I have 2 DVRs, each with a Skip button. In a way, I use my DVRs to skip commercials just like the Hopper does – albeit, a little more labor-intensively.

Now, my problem is that I simply don’t care for commercials unless they are funny or interesting. But seeing the same funny or interesting commercial over and over again really gives me a headache. So I skip … by any means possible and live with the imbedded/placement stuff. Give me a skip button, and I’ll use it time and again.

If broadcasters would implement some sort or standards or a restraint on repeats, then maybe I’d be more willing to watch them. It seems to me that this is a two-way street that only seems to operate as a one-way.

Years ago, I owned a VCR (RCA, I think) that would record something for you and afterwards would rewind itself and detect the commercials. It was a bit funny because you could hear the thing going crazy Play, FF, Stop, Rewind, Play, FF… over and over. (Not the sort of thing you’d want in the bedroom.) But when you played your program back later, all of the commercials would automatically skip (FF) in their entirety – not even 1-3 seconds of them. And yet, nobody complained about that back then.

As I see it, I’m already paying premiums to HBO, Starz/Encore, Showtime/TMC/FLIX, Epix and Cinemax for the privilege of watching commercial-free programming. I expect that the rising boom in transmission rates will serve as a boon in increased original programming for these premium channels.

For the moment though, it looks like curtains for DWTS and Wipeout in Denver, unless Dish caves and then passes the cost on to us subs. Lucky for them, the Hopper thing isn’t a showstopper, so I expect they’ll keep it at our expense.

So it looks like I’ll be losing 2 channels in the Denver area. I guess I’ll just have to tighten the old belt and make do with the remaining 300-or so channels Dish is providing me.

Kinda makes you miss the old days, huh? :sure:
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#89 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:32 PM

I know this is not for everyone, but there was a time you could have locals for 5$.

I got the same credit from dtv when they didn't offer locals in my area.

Given the choice, I'd rather have the 5$ credit and dish could drop my locals.

I could then apply that 5$ to their BB package. I save a little, dish makes a little. win win:)

#90 OFFLINE   dakeeney

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:13 PM

A few years ago (ok, decades) the broadcasters were all annoyed about the possibility of recording their programs. They lost that battle.

Recently it seems that they have been winning ... with restrictions built in to DVRs that make it harder to share recordings at full quality being common. At least in DVRs designed for cable and satellite vendors who are under a great deal of pressure not to tick off broadcasters.

I would hate to see DISH pressured to remove innovation from their receivers.


Gannett is using the Hopper commercial skip as an excuse to charge more. I can live without the auto hop feature, but we the public ,have the choice of using the feature or not. Dish is not forcing the viewers to use it. It's our choice! The courts have already sided with the public on this issue. If the networks use this as blackmail then take them to court and see who wins...again and who is sued. It won't be Dish that loses.

#91 OFFLINE   scooper

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:45 PM

The problem is that DISH is actively assisting the viewers with skipping the commercials, by timing the shows and sending data to the Hopper, so it knows when to skip the ads.
If DISH quit that part, the "DVR-Like" arguments would be OK....but, you'd just have a DVR, and you'd have to manually skip everything.


They don't have to do that timing at all - I'd bet they're using the same control signals embeded in the broadcast you use. The only "timing" being done is when will the auto-hop be available to the viewer. (maybe some timing on each end of each break right before / after the program).
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#92 OFFLINE   rtd2

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:56 PM

So the content providers that produce/broadcast the programming you pay your service provider to retransmit are bad, while the service provider is good. Hmm...ok.




Yep you just about nailed my feelings on the situation ...what's strange is the big 4 networks have collectively opposed the hopper and have sued. I don't know what the status of the lawsuit(s) is but from what I've read most legal minds feel its gonna be in dish's favor ...I guess the big4 next move Is what we are seeing with gannett ..Backdoor disputes over hopper...funny thing is dispatch group just renewed their contract few days ago with dish after a 30 day + spat ....hope the big 4 plan to supplement these local owners especially the small ones cause it's obvious local owners have. Become attached to the big $$$$$ dish and directv retransmission contracts bring them...all this for local channels free via antenna ...

#93 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:02 PM

The Hopper does seem to cross a line, albeit a fuzzy one. There are times we record shows and then just let the commercials run (perhaps because we're reading or doing something other than just single tasking watching TV.)

My fear is that the result of commercials becoming easier and easier to skip is that we're going to start getting annoying banners and overlays with commercials on top of the actual shows. I remember the first time I saw the CBS eye and the NBC symbol overlayed on a show, and it irritated the crap out of me. Now, every show seems to have the bottom 3rd of the screen covered up, during the actual show, with faces smiling and saying "Watch New Girl at 8:00!" and other ads for TV shows. It's not a big step to having those same annoying overlays purchased by companies and have commercials overlain on our shows. I'd much rather have the Hopper's auto-commercial mode turned off than it come to that.

And make no mistake: companies WILL make sure you see the commercials, and if overlaying them on the actual show is the only way to do it, they will do it.

#94 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:13 PM

And make no mistake: companies WILL make sure you see the commercials, and if overlaying them on the actual show is the only way to do it, they will do it.

That is why it is called "commercial television". Broadcast channels want you to see the commercials.

As for the other content ... watch it get blocked out by banners when a pre-school wants to announce a closing or there is usual weather threatening. Watch as the weather guy or gal interrupts the other content to tell you about this devistating pre-school closing or usual weather. And watch as many stations (not all) return to full screen no interruptions when it is time for commercials. It is "commercial television" ... everything else is just filler.

#95 OFFLINE   sregener

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:56 PM

It is "commercial television" ... everything else is just filler.


In a very real sense, we the viewers are the product that is being sold. The programming is the bait to attract our eyes, so it isn't exactly filler.

I've probably watched less than 1000 commercials since 1998, when I got my first DVR. I've watched a lot more than 1000 hours of television in that time. The skipping commercial horse is well clear of the barn by now.

#96 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 07:51 PM

The Hopper does seem to cross a line, albeit a fuzzy one. There are times we record shows and then just let the commercials run (perhaps because we're reading or doing something other than just single tasking watching TV.)

My fear is that the result of commercials becoming easier and easier to skip is that we're going to start getting annoying banners and overlays with commercials on top of the actual shows. I remember the first time I saw the CBS eye and the NBC symbol overlayed on a show, and it irritated the crap out of me. Now, every show seems to have the bottom 3rd of the screen covered up, during the actual show, with faces smiling and saying "Watch New Girl at 8:00!" and other ads for TV shows. It's not a big step to having those same annoying overlays purchased by companies and have commercials overlain on our shows. I'd much rather have the Hopper's auto-commercial mode turned off than it come to that.

And make no mistake: companies WILL make sure you see the commercials, and if overlaying them on the actual show is the only way to do it, they will do it.


Well, if it comes to that, they better figure in the amount of viewership they will lose.
That would be one aggravation I could easily walk away from.

Who needs tv that bad?

There are channels that seem to limit their commercials. It's pretty easy to just migrate in that direction and leave the crap behind.

#97 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:52 PM

Keep hearing the 300% increase demanded of Dish. Is this just a flat out lie posted on Kare 11 (Gannett MPLS/St. Paul) stations website?

Q: I have heard DISH say that KARE11 is demanding a big fee increase, which would lead to higher satellite bills. Is that true?

A: No. KARE11 has successfully negotiated agreements with all the other providers in our area based on the same basic terms that are being offered to DISH. Those other providers were willing to reach a deal. So far, DISH is not. In any case, we do not believe customers should be dragged into the middle of business disputes. We know that what matters to you is getting what you pay for and not losing programs you love. That is why we are focused on reaching a fair, market-based deal as quickly as possible.


If they are asking for 300% and post this crafty but innocent sounding reply to the public then they are slime. They do not have to place the consumer in the middle of this and could keep the feed available to their "valued" viewers while negotiations take place. Can someone again tell me why we have to pay for channels that should be free anyway?

Glad I still have Windows Media Center running on my home server and will just record the local NBC programming on it. Oh, and my installation of WMC has fully automated commercial skipping (had it years before the Hopper came into my home) so removing ads while watching is even more seamless than autohop and there is also zero waiting time.

I will never go through the hassle of switching over this or any channel dispute unless it all gets to the point where I just cut the cord completely.

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#98 OFFLINE   Jim5506

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:06 PM

Something has been lost in all this angst... You can't use the auto hop feature until the next day!!

We are not talking about recording a program and jumping in 20 minutes into the program and just watching the programming while the receiver automatically skips all the commercials (which is what I do with my 722K).

If you turn on PTAT, it records Monday's prime time programming, but you cannot use the features until after 1 am the next morning, I personally prefer to just watch them a little later and skip the commercials with the skip FWD button.

I sort of have my own PTAT setup with two HD TiVos, each recording a different OTA channel and I come in and watch what I want, skipping ALL of the blessed commercials. Just because my TiVos do not do the deed for me does not change the outcome.

As someone earlier suggested, stations and networks need to adapt to the current and future technology, because this type of event is going to be more frequent and widely used, no matter what the outcome with Dish and Gannett, they are using their finger to plug a whole in the dike while the entire dike is starting to crumble.

Litigation and threats will not stop progress, I see Dish spreading this technology to most or all of the channels it carries, having multiple tuners that record entire categories of channels for us to watch later, bringing satellite VOD much closer to what cable has to offer, whether the commercial skip is in there is irrelevant, the real breaktrough here is the method of recording and playing back the stream.

With the current Hopper, there is potential right now to record 12 simultaneous data streams, but I do not think 4 channels per tuner is the limit there either, with some channel rearranging (putting similar channels from the same package on the same TP you can see where a 5TB drive could record 100 channels coming from the satellite for 24 hours, limit that to 8 hours/day and you already have 100 channels for 3 days, cut that to 50 channels and you could record 8 hours/day for 6 days, assunimg 2GB/hr, which is probably 2X high for MPEG4 recordings.

Anyway enough rambling - this multi channel recording technology is super exciting, and the autohop is not really that important in the overall scheme of things.

Personally I think Dish did it just to get the attention of the stations/networks and say if you keep gouging me for revenue, I'll make your revenue source irrelevant.

Edited by Jim5506, 06 October 2012 - 10:12 PM.

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#99 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 10:14 PM

Something has been lost in all this angst... You can't use the auto hop feature until the next day!!

Actually ... you can use it same day. I have watched 8pm-9pm programming around 10pm and have been offered the AutoHop option. It is not something that is useful during recording, such as you describe on your 722K, but it is no longer "next day". (Unless my receiver is broken and somehow figuring out breaks before the rest of the country. :))

#100 OFFLINE   runner861

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 11:06 PM

Sort of on topic, sort of an aside--Why doesn't the hopper have an ota module? Then even if a station pulls its signal over a desire to have the autohop feature disabled, ota viewers could continue to autohop. Or is there some reason that autohop won't work on ota?




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