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Closed Captioning??


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27 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   reubenray

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:21 PM

Anyone else having issues with the closed captioning? Some times it works and then sometimes the letters are just random letters and symbols.

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#2 OFFLINE   jdspencer

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:39 PM

What receiver and what channel?
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#3 OFFLINE   reubenray

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:49 PM

It happens on my HR34- I will need to check the channels.

#4 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:50 PM

Anyone else having issues with the closed captioning? Some times it works and then sometimes the letters are just random letters and symbols.


You have closed caption on through your television and you have the text format mode on. Change this within your TV.

#5 OFFLINE   west99999

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 06:46 PM

Well if you are using HR34 with HDMI then it may be something else. How is it connected?

#6 OFFLINE   MONSTERMAN

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 11:44 PM

I used to constantly have troubles with CC, until I correctly re-grounded everything. CC is a very sensitive feature, be sure your receivers are all properly grounded and of course that your TV's CC is off.

#7 OFFLINE   reubenray

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 05:51 AM

This is a new issue as it worked correctly until about a week ago and my other receiver does the same thing. The closed captioning feature is not turned on the TV/projector, but only the D*receivers. It also happens on most channels and only occurs when the captioning is at the top of the screen due to the show info is at the bottom.

My HDMI connection in the LR/projector goes through my A/V receiver. The HDMI connection in the BR goes straight to the TV.

Edit: Being there was not any reasons nor cures for this I went ahead and did hard reboots on both of my receivers. This appears to have fixed the problems.

Edited by reubenray, 11 October 2012 - 03:04 PM.


#8 OFFLINE   Capmeister

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:03 PM

I see that I *do* need to come back to DTV if only to get CC testing going. :)
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#9 OFFLINE   wahooq

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:46 PM

I've seen a handful of issues with CC lately...not sure why...
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#10 OFFLINE   Capmeister

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:31 AM

Is there any consistency to the channels it occurs on? Do you have Digital cc on as well?
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#11 OFFLINE   JeffBowser

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 01:13 PM

My CC garbles periodically as well. Sometimes turning it off and back on again clears it. Other times the problem is in the source. We don't have much leverage.
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#12 OFFLINE   Capmeister

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 02:48 PM

My D* stuff will be here on Tuesday, so I will be able to do some testing myself, but if either of you can tell me some channels it happens on more often than usual, if that's possible, that would be helpful. :-)
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#13 OFFLINE   Capmeister

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 03:17 PM

So, I slingboxed into a friend's HR34. I note that it only has the new digital closed captioning: DTVCC1 though 6. On my current TiVo I actually leave that off and just use normal CC1. I'd like to see that as an option to see if that solves some CC issues people are having (so long as using CC1 disables the use of DTVCC1 as I've seen conflicts if both are on). I wonder how difficult that would be for DirecTV to institute.
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#14 OFFLINE   reubenray

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 06:16 AM

It has been several days since I did hard reboots on the receivers. Everything is working OK for now.

#15 OFFLINE   âêîôû

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 07:37 AM

Really? Resurrecting a 3-year old thread?

Yes... We can!

 

For the past week (of June 2015 and into July), there has been "Poltergeist" remnants of the same text appearing in closed captioning across all channels.

What randomly and frequently (every couple of minutes) appears is:

"We had William Shatner" or some slightly abbreviated versions "We had Wil" or on rare occasions the full sentence:

"We had William Shatner on the line" or "We had William Shatner in the studio"

I can't remember exactly what the full sentence was, but on the rare occasions the extended version showed up it was something similar.

 

It will pop up in the middle of someone (Not William Shatner and not on any show he was in) talking, and not necessarily triggered by any speech recognition patterns (No one started a sentence with "We had...") so I can't account for it.

It does this on more than one DVR (20's and 21's) and persists after reboot.

 

More of a very minor nuisance than a problem, but just curious if anyone else using CC has experienced this? 



#16 OFFLINE   Mad.Scientist

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 12:56 PM

 

 

More of a very minor nuisance than a problem, but just curious if anyone else using CC has experienced this? 

I have noticed missing letters, words and sometimes whole sentences in closed captioning on my Genie, but on my wireless Genie Mini, the CC is practically flawless, as CC is never perfect.  I have checked the very same dialogue in a program where it is consistently missing parts and tried repeatedly to see if it was a one time thing and the same letters and words are missing each time I rerun the passage, and then I go and watch the same part of the program on the TV that the Wireless Genie Mini is connected to and it is all there with nothing missing at all.  Really annoying to me and I do not hear dialogue well, as the Genie HR44 is on the mainly used TV while the Genie Mini is in a room that does not get as much use.  I do have CC turned off on both TVs in the TV settings. Both are connected with HDMI cables. 



#17 OFFLINE   allenn

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Posted 03 July 2015 - 11:04 PM

The CC shows weird characters on the Genie, HR44. I have an HR24 HD DVR, and the CC works great on all channels. Both TVs are connected via HDMI cables.  


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#18 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 05:53 PM

CC is not robust. You can see a CC error, skip back, and it will play fine. This indicates that the basic decoder itself is not robust.

 

Delivery is also not robust. CC arrives as a part of the VANC and is metadata interleaved with the video and audio. Video and audio is fairly robust because it has forward error correction, and because if a macroblock does get dropped, keeping the previous macroblock on the screen until the next one arrives is often invisible. If an audio frame gets dropped, it is muted, so often there may be a dropout that is not audible. Theoretically, FEC is applied to all packets, so it should help when any corrupted packet needs a replacement packet, but I am not sure that ability is baked into FEC the same way that audio frames and video macroblocks are backed up, which may be why when reception is spotty, CC has issues that are not reflected in the video and audio, which still appears OK.

 

And while it does not appear so, reception is always pretty imperfect, which is the entire idea behind FEC for digital transport in the first place. A number of corrupted packets is normal, but FEC makes that invisible by replacing corrupted packets with duplicates. You can have your reception a little marginal and still get good video this way.

 

So the takeaway here is to keep that dish optimized. Even if reception is a bit off, video and audio will survive. CC, maybe not so much.

 

Back to the decoder issue, this thread alone proves that this can go screwy, and that a reboot can fix it. I think CC decoding runs as a software service, so that would make sense that a restart often can fix it.

 

But bottom line, it is not a well-thought-out delivery protocol for CC, and constantly has errors. Maybe ATSC 3.0 will deal with that a little better, or a better version of DVB. I hope so, because we will all need CC by the time ATSC 3.0 is available.


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#19 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 06:09 PM

That replaying the content or a reboot seems to cure the problem suggests that delivery isn't the issue.
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#20 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 06:58 PM

That replaying the content or a reboot seems to cure the problem suggests that delivery isn't the issue.

 

Yes, when that happens. If it plays OK the second time, delivery is not the issue. Decoding is the issue. I thought that was pretty clear.

 

But that does not indemnify delivery from being problematic. It is problematic, and often.


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#21 OFFLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 04:59 PM

What amazes me is how well CC actually does (and did) work, especially with old, low-def equipment (such as DVD recorders and old VCRs, set to their crappiest-quality settings!).  I guess this assumes that the sets used for playback probably have pretty good decoders in them, though.  That signal had to survive snowy, RF analog transmission, as well.

 

I too, would've thought that these digital technologies should've brought us more reliable captioning.

 

Most of the "errors" I experience are from live, or live-to-tape stenographers not being able to keep up with the dialog.  There are some good ones out there, though.

 

While I've never experienced anything quite like the "William Shatner Haunting, "  I have noticed (both the H and the HR receivers) take longer these days from the point of turning captioning on until it actually starts displaying, and sometimes there are jumbled remnants of a previous program from when the last time the captioning had been turned on.  At least I've assumed they are.  I'll take notice now and see if it looks like the same text every time...



#22 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 06:37 PM

There was an Asian guy I heard about who was a whiz with computers and all sorts of digital processing issues. He wore an analog watch. "Very reriable", is what he used to say.

 

Analog CC was pretty "reriable", because it was based on turning groups of pixels in an unseen (usually) scan line from 0 IRE to 100 IRE. Snow that was mild enough to not make the picture unwatchable would have no effect on that. So it WAS robust. It was hard for the decoder not to work, and work "reriabry". The task for digital CC is much more difficult. Add the latency, the 46,000 mile path, format conversions, and 200:1 compression, and it gets even harder.


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#23 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 07:57 AM

But that does not indemnify delivery from being problematic. It is problematic, and often.

If the CC decodes consistently, the delivery is the problem but if the same content decodes differently most of the time, the problem is the decoder.
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#24 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 07:56 PM

If the CC decodes consistently, the delivery is the problem but if the same content decodes differently most of the time, the problem is the decoder.

 

I can't see that logic. It is not as simple as that. If CC decodes consistently (meaning that it fully decodes properly and consistently), then there is no problem. If it decodes improperly consistently, the file is likely corrupted, whether that is due to delivery, storage or playback issues.

 

If the "same content" is the same file being played back more than once, that is post-delivery. But iffy or corrupted bits from the delivery recorded on a HDD can be decoded differently twice in a row by the same exact decoder, so delivery still may be a part of the problem. So it is not black and white "the decoder", even in that case.

 

The overarching problem is exactly what I was talking about: a lack of robustness in the protocol.

 

And they are all moot points. We can't change the protocol, and we can't change the decoder. And we can't make the captioner any smarter or skilled at their job. All we can really do, and this is not all that much regarding CC, is maximize the Qos by maximizing reception and using top-shelf distribution. Captioning, it is what it is.


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#25 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 10 July 2015 - 08:29 AM

But iffy or corrupted bits from the delivery recorded on a HDD can be decoded differently twice in a row by the same exact decoder, so delivery still may be a part of the problem. So it is not black and white "the decoder", even in that case.
 
The overarching problem is exactly what I was talking about: a lack of robustness in the protocol.

I think you've reached too far here. It is likely that the protocol is robust.

There's nothing iffy about digital. Once recorded, it should be interpreted the same way each and every time. You simply can't record iffy in the digital domain.

If you're not seeing significant aberrations in the picture and/or hearing lots of garbage in the sound, there's no logical reason to assume that the CC data is getting singled out to be trashed. CC is not dependent on data that came before or after like MPEG is.
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK




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