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DISH Network and Voom Reach Settlement


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#161 OFFLINE   Wildblue

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:54 AM

Wow, this thread got ugly.

So I'll just add what I was going to post--I'm happy AMC is back, and the other channels will be nice, too. When I switched from D* to Dish a couple months ago, not having AMC was honestly one of the very few hangups for me, but I decided to go through with it anyway. I really enjoy Mad Men, and was really not wanting to miss out on it.

So I'm happy that I'll get Mad Men again, and will check out the other stuff too. Cool! At first, I was a bit disappointed when I discovered that channel 131 HD is placed on one of the satellite channels that we don't get in Alaska. (we still get SD versions of most of those channels, though) But then I found an AMC HD channel up on 5658 or something, so all is good. :)

Oh, and whoever posted that the TWD season premiere is available for a limited time On Demand, I'm not finding it in the On Demand listings.

Edited by Wildblue, 24 October 2012 - 03:01 AM.


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#162 OFFLINE   joyandjerry

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:58 AM

Wow, this thread got ugly.

So I'll just add what I was going to post--I'm happy AMC is back, and the other channels will be nice, too. When I switched from D* to Dish a couple months ago, not having AMC was honestly one of the very few hangups for me, but I decided to go through with it anyway. I really enjoy Mad Men, and was really not wanting to miss out on it.

So I'm happy that I'll get Mad Men again, and will check out the other stuff too. Cool! At first, I was a bit disappointed when I discovered that channel 131 HD is placed on one of the satellite channels that we don't get in Alaska. (we still get SD versions of most of those channels, though) But then I found an AMC HD channel up on 5658 or something, so all is good. :)

Oh, and whoever posted that the TWD season premiere is available for a limited time On Demand, I'm not finding it in the On Demand listings.


It's also available directly on AMC's site to view. The premiere ep of the season will be rebroadcast Sunday at 7:00 PM EST.

Edited by joyandjerry, 24 October 2012 - 08:59 AM.
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#163 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:07 PM

It looked for all the world to me like Rainbow was going to win this case and get a large settlement given the last week's worth of testimony and the uncovering of Dish-deleted emails that appeared to support the Voom view and squash the Dish view of what was allowed.

So... when we then see such a quick settlement for frankly a half or so of what I would have thought Dish would have had to pay...

It doesn't make Dish right... it still looks like Dish was in the wrong... but clearly to most people Dish still "won" the war here... because the payout was way less than probably would have come in a verdict, and it didn't look like Dish had any legs to stand on anymore.

So, I don't see anyone spinning that Dish was right... just that Dish seems to have won, because Rainbow blinked and settled what was looking more and more like a "sure thing" court victory over Dish.


If a win means you didn't lose nearly as much as you could have, sure, you can call it a win. As opposed to actually winning the case. Like Michigan and Ohio State going into a football game, no one knows who will win, and in the 4th quarter Ohio State starts getting their tails kicked, and it looks like they're going to lose 100-0, and Michigan pulls their starters and OSU only loses 70-0. I guess they could call that a win. So if going to court, paying the millions to your team of attorneys, with every intent of walking away with a win, then being discovered as having lied to the court and the public and paying several hundred million out to the people you're fighting is better than it could have been and thus that is the definition of a win, OK.

People keep saying Voom "blinked" as if Dish stared them down and they crumbled. I doubt, with all the evidence that was uncovered, and the sudden "WHOA - um, can we stop this trial, please, judge?" that occurred as soon as this evidence was introduced, I just don't believe Voom backed down or blinked in any way. They knew they had the upper hand. As a couple of experienced attorneys have commented, most plaintiffs never expect to get what they are suing for, you always make claims for far above what you expect to get, that's just part of the game. And we do not know all the details of the agreement.

So yeah, if that's a win for Dish, we'd better hope they don't have a win every year or they'll go bankrupt! ;)

#164 OFFLINE   ehilbert1

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:39 PM

If a win means you didn't lose nearly as much as you could have, sure, you can call it a win. As opposed to actually winning the case. Like Michigan and Ohio State going into a football game, no one knows who will win, and in the 4th quarter Ohio State starts getting their tails kicked, and it looks like they're going to lose 100-0, and Michigan pulls their starters and OSU only loses 70-0. I guess they could call that a win. So if going to court, paying the millions to your team of attorneys, with every intent of walking away with a win, then being discovered as having lied to the court and the public and paying several hundred million out to the people you're fighting is better than it could have been and thus that is the definition of a win, OK.

People keep saying Voom "blinked" as if Dish stared them down and they crumbled. I doubt, with all the evidence that was uncovered, and the sudden "WHOA - um, can we stop this trial, please, judge?" that occurred as soon as this evidence was introduced, I just don't believe Voom backed down or blinked in any way. They knew they had the upper hand. As a couple of experienced attorneys have commented, most plaintiffs never expect to get what they are suing for, you always make claims for far above what you expect to get, that's just part of the game. And we do not know all the details of the agreement.

So yeah, if that's a win for Dish, we'd better hope they don't have a win every year or they'll go bankrupt! ;)



I take issue with you having that team up north winning!! Try the other way around! Go Bucks!! OK as you were!

#165 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 12:58 PM

If a win means you didn't lose nearly as much as you could have, sure, you can call it a win. As opposed to actually winning the case.


Are you reading the same info as the rest of us?

Like Michigan and Ohio State going into a football game, no one knows who will win, and in the 4th quarter Ohio State starts getting their tails kicked, and it looks like they're going to lose 100-0, and Michigan pulls their starters and OSU only loses 70-0. I guess they could call that a win.


Umm.. no, that analogy isn't correct at all. Trying to stay within sports...and using your example...

Michigan and Ohio State start a game... nobody scores for a while, but the penalty yards and field position game are becoming increasingly one-sided... It is a 3-3 game with all the yards and time of possession and field position are WAY in Michigan's favor... and the Ohio State players are starting to get tired in the second half... Michigan starts running the ball for big yards each play and takes a 17-3 lead.

BUT... instead of playing the game out... Michigan and Ohio State agree to settle for a 20-20 tie game so that neither suffers a loss... and Michigan sends a couple of players over to Ohio State in a trade deal.

That's a little closer to what happened.

Rainbow, given the way the trial was proceeding as far as we can tell, was raking up the points with the judge (and presumably the jury)... so it was looking like a win was inevitable... but instead of going for that... Rainbow settles with Dish for far less than they were asking AND gives Dish something else (the wireless licenses) in the process.

On what planet is that not a win for Dish? Dish turned a sure loss into at worst a tie, at best a win on paper.

So yeah, if that's a win for Dish, we'd better hope they don't have a win every year or they'll go bankrupt! ;)


Sorry... but a company like Dish has lawyers on retainer year-round anyway... so they probably pay the lawyers pretty much the same whether in court or not... might as well put them to use!

Also, even with those fees and the settlement... Dish still spent less than they would have had to pay for Voom HD on the original contract... so Dish saved that money literally!

I make the case that IF Dish lost all of its court-cases like this, they will beg to be sued!

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#166 OFFLINE   dennispap

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:28 PM

Wow, this thread got ugly.

Oh, and whoever posted that the TWD season premiere is available for a limited time On Demand, I'm not finding it in the On Demand listings.


I dont watch the show, but the on demand listing shows ep 303 "seed". I don't know if that is the one you are looking for or not.

#167 OFFLINE   gpg

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:29 PM

Don't forget that AMC got moved to a lower package with many more subscribers, and got Fuse back on Dish along with the other channels. None of us knows what Dish is now paying for AMC and the other channels, but I feel confident that it's significantly higher than what Dish would have been willing to pay if there had been no settlement.

Without knowing the terms of the renewal agreement, I don't see how anyone can reasonably declare Dish the winner. I'm not saying AMC won either, but I think they may have done much better than some of you may be giving them credit for.
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#168 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:20 PM

People keep saying Voom "blinked" as if Dish stared them down and they crumbled. I doubt, with all the evidence that was uncovered, and the sudden "WHOA - um, can we stop this trial, please, judge?"



Point is, we're really not sure who said 'Whoa!' For all we know, the Dolans found something that they didn't want to get out in open court. Maybe something bigger than the Dish emails.

I still don't know how the spectrum got into this. That was never mentioned publicly prior to the other day. Why would they give that up the way they did? Especially when Cablevision is expanding into wireless distribution on their own.
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#169 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 02:55 PM

It just stands out to me that Dish was going to introduce something next week, something that Cablevision felt would mitigate the outcome, though still in their favor. These two sides really virtually hated each other. To come up with this kind of settlement, where Dish actually gets something valuable was from way out of left field.

And think about this. If Dish proposed the possible settlement, out of complete weakness, how did they ask for, and get spectrum? And get Cablevision down to about $620 Million?
And reverse that, if Dish was so weak, why would Cablevision propose a settlement, much less selling them something valuable at a reasonable price giving Dish the biggest piece of the spectrum. And then accept $620 Million? Cablevision had to think they had very little chance on part of their claim flying, and felt this settlement was good for a sure thing.

The answer points to Dish was not in as much of a weak position as we thought. That, or they hypnotized the negotiators.

#170 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:15 PM

It just stands out to me that Dish was going to introduce something next week, something that Cablevision felt would mitigate the outcome, though still in their favor. These two sides really virtually hated each other. To come up with this kind of settlement, where Dish actually gets something valuable was from way out of left field.

And think about this. If Dish proposed the possible settlement, out of complete weakness, how did they ask for, and get spectrum? And get Cablevision down to about $620 Million?
And reverse that, if Dish was so weak, why would Cablevision propose a settlement, much less selling them something valuable at a reasonable price giving Dish the biggest piece of the spectrum. And then accept $620 Million? Cablevision had to think they had very little chance on part of their claim flying, and felt this settlement was good for a sure thing.

The answer points to Dish was not in as much of a weak position as we thought. That, or they hypnotized the negotiators.


Obvious answer - avoid Dish appealing the decision and dragging it out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but lawyers must share evidence that they'll present. If Dish had something detrimental on CV, why would Dish just settle? They'd want to win...heck, they had no trouble lying and destroying evidence to win. Keep defending the lying company...
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#171 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:20 PM

I went out of my way to say it was something to mitigate the outcome, not that it was detrimental. And never did I say Dish could have won, I said not in as a weak position as we (or many of us) thought.
And what dragging out? Dish hasn't even given their testimony yet. It's that fact, that Cablevision entered into this agreement before Dish goes in next week that is no coincidence. Cablevision had to think their case could be weakened, and they will not get anywhere near what they were going for. (I will say, no way were they ever going to get 2.5 Billion) But if they were in such a strong position, this settlement might have happened, but for much more money, and perhaps no spectrum for Dish, or a higher amount to buy it.

#172 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:25 PM

...
And what dragging out? ...


Appeals court after the case repeatedly ...thus delaying any payment and costing CV more.
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#173 OFFLINE   Hunter844

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:41 PM

Is it me or does AMC Just play the same stuff over and over again? Every time I check my guide they are showing Halloween: Resurrection
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#174 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:42 PM

Then you do that after the case, and see how strong you think you are on appeal. Then assess how much to settle for. Your idea is not incorrect, just too early to be probable. Doing it earlier underscores that Dish's position was not as weak as some thought.

Edited by tampa8, 24 October 2012 - 05:02 PM.


#175 OFFLINE   garys

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:59 PM

Is it me or does AMC Just play the same stuff over and over again? Every time I check my guide they are showing Halloween: Resurrection


They are showing scary movies since it is October. It ends on the 31st. You can check AMCtv for their schedule after the marathon is over.

#176 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:20 AM

I went out of my way to say it was something to mitigate the outcome, not that it was detrimental. And never did I say Dish could have won, I said not in as a weak position as we (or many of us) thought.
And what dragging out? Dish hasn't even given their testimony yet. It's that fact, that Cablevision entered into this agreement before Dish goes in next week that is no coincidence. Cablevision had to think their case could be weakened, and they will not get anywhere near what they were going for. (I will say, no way were they ever going to get 2.5 Billion) But if they were in such a strong position, this settlement might have happened, but for much more money, and perhaps no spectrum for Dish, or a higher amount to buy it.


Of course, the unknown factor is what Dish is paying for the AMC channels. Also, the spectrum sale has to clear the FCC (though that is likely).

I suspect there is enough in the full details of the deal to let both CEOs claim victory to their boards.

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#177 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:54 PM

Are you reading the same info as the rest of us?

Michigan and Ohio State start a game... nobody scores for a while, but the penalty yards and field position game are becoming increasingly one-sided... It is a 3-3 game with all the yards and time of possession and field position are WAY in Michigan's favor... and the Ohio State players are starting to get tired in the second half... Michigan starts running the ball for big yards each play and takes a 17-3 lead.

BUT... instead of playing the game out... Michigan and Ohio State agree to settle for a 20-20 tie game so that neither suffers a loss... and Michigan sends a couple of players over to Ohio State in a trade deal.

That's a little closer to what happened.

Rainbow, given the way the trial was proceeding as far as we can tell, was raking up the points with the judge (and presumably the jury)... so it was looking like a win was inevitable... but instead of going for that... Rainbow settles with Dish for far less than they were asking AND gives Dish something else (the wireless licenses) in the process.

On what planet is that not a win for Dish? Dish turned a sure loss into at worst a tie, at best a win on paper.

Sorry... but a company like Dish has lawyers on retainer year-round anyway... so they probably pay the lawyers pretty much the same whether in court or not... might as well put them to use!

Also, even with those fees and the settlement... Dish still spent less than they would have had to pay for Voom HD on the original contract... so Dish saved that money literally!

I make the case that IF Dish lost all of its court-cases like this, they will beg to be sued!



One - yeah, they have lawyers on retainer. But having been involved in a lawsuit in which the amount being sued for was a little over a million, and with a company which had a 3 story building that was our lawyer building, I can tell the ADDITIONAL cost for a trial like this was quite a few million. You don't pay trial lawyers their per hour fee for a major lawsuit until you are in the lawsuit. And they charge a fortune per hour, per lawyer. I guarantee you that there were major lawyer fees (for both sides) in this case above and beyond.

Without all the contortions, let me ask you the simple question: If you hadn't read anything at all in the last week, and someone told you Dish won the case, what would you have guessed the result was? That they won and didn't have to pay anything, that the jury agreed with them. Right? Let's say there was no settlement, and the jury came back and said we find Dish guilty as charged, and assess the damage to be $700 million, plus we order Dish to immediately start carrying AMC and related channels, and we order Dish to carry AMC on a lower tier than what they were before the dispute in order to be able to tell their advertisers they not only have all of those viewers back but a huge number more, and we also order Dish to pay XX for AMC and other channels, would you have said Hah, take THAT Voom!

I've been involved in 3 cases like this, 2 of them very closely. I doubt Voom thought when they sued for the amount they did they would ever get that amount, and I would bet you a lot that if Dish said, hey, how about we give you $700 million and take AMC back at a really nice fee you like and also put it on a lower tier and give you double the viewership (I dont know what it is but I guess a lot) and pay for these other channels also, oh, and also give you that 20% back so that you get ALL the money, I suspect there would have never been a trial. It's kinda silly (just IMO) to think that Dish had something on Voom - it's no coincidence they stopped the trial as soon as it was proven in court that Dish was lying.

I suspect that Voom/AMC is breaking out the champagne.

(BTW - lest ye think I hate Dish, I'm on a business trip in Germany right now, watching shows from my DVR at home, on my iPad in my hotel room. I love Dish's product. I'd be with DirectTV if I didn't. I switched from DirectTV after being with them since 1995 and frankly also think they have a great product. I'll be getting a Hopper once I figure out how much it will cost me. So I have no problem with Dish the service even though I don't agree with a few of their choices. FWIW.)

At the end of the day, it is what it is, so call it whatever you like, it makes no practical difference to us as viewers, other than those who will now get to watch some shows at a lower tier than before.

#178 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:31 PM

The problem in that logic is...

Whatever Dish is now paying for AMC... will be passed to the consumer/subscriber once we get to the next rate increase... so that is a non-issue to the lawsuit. Even if Dish is paying more for AMC now than previously, WE will be paying that just as we would if they had extended the contract independently of the settlement.

So the only relevant points are... cash out of hand from Dish to Voom AND the wireless licenses that Rainbow gave to Dish.

And you simply cannot dismiss that original 15 year Voom HD contract. The whole reason there is a lawsuit is that Rainbow said Dish broke a 15-year contract... so IF Dish was ruled to have broken that contract, it is reasonable to assume at least the amount due over the last 4.5 years was due + something for court costs and damages... maybe not the full 15-year contract... but at least the part I described.

Had Dish NOT broken the contract... Dish would still be in that 15 year contract... so Dish saved all that money by breaking it.

Think of it like a customer. You sign up for a 2 year commitment with Dish... but after a few months you decide you want DirecTV. You can either pay Dish for the remaining 21 months OR pay them the substantially lower cancellation fee and go ahead over to DirecTV now. You can do this because the contract says you can.

The Voom contract didn't say Dish could get out with an early-exit fee... but Dish basically ended up negotiating an early-exit fee through court. That's a win for Dish... because when the dust settles:

1. Dish isn't forced to pay the Voom contract in full.
2. Dish has the channels back they recently dropped.
3. Dish has new wireless licenses.

Rainbow has:

1. $700 million cash in-hand.
2. AMC carriage contract with Dish.

Dish, in the end, basically has everything they wanted... they knew they were going to have to pay something... but this way they got stuff in return!

Rainbow, got a little bit... but not what they wanted... and they had to give up something to get it.

Rainbow should have won this case in court and got more for it. Dish wins in a settlement here. The longer Dish was beaten down in court and the bigger the verdict, the worse that would have been for Dish in the long run.

A year from now, this will all be forgotten.... just the way Dish would like it!

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#179 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:51 PM

The problem in that logic is...

Whatever Dish is now paying for AMC... will be passed to the consumer/subscriber once we get to the next rate increase... so that is a non-issue to the lawsuit. Even if Dish is paying more for AMC now than previously, WE will be paying that just as we would if they had extended the contract independently of the settlement.

So the only relevant points are... cash out of hand from Dish to Voom AND the wireless licenses that Rainbow gave to Dish.

And you simply cannot dismiss that original 15 year Voom HD contract. The whole reason there is a lawsuit is that Rainbow said Dish broke a 15-year contract... so IF Dish was ruled to have broken that contract, it is reasonable to assume at least the amount due over the last 4.5 years was due + something for court costs and damages... maybe not the full 15-year contract... but at least the part I described.

Had Dish NOT broken the contract... Dish would still be in that 15 year contract... so Dish saved all that money by breaking it.

Think of it like a customer. You sign up for a 2 year commitment with Dish... but after a few months you decide you want DirecTV. You can either pay Dish for the remaining 21 months OR pay them the substantially lower cancellation fee and go ahead over to DirecTV now. You can do this because the contract says you can.

The Voom contract didn't say Dish could get out with an early-exit fee... but Dish basically ended up negotiating an early-exit fee through court. That's a win for Dish... because when the dust settles:

1. Dish isn't forced to pay the Voom contract in full.
2. Dish has the channels back they recently dropped.
3. Dish has new wireless licenses.

Rainbow has:

1. $700 million cash in-hand.
2. AMC carriage contract with Dish.

Dish, in the end, basically has everything they wanted... they knew they were going to have to pay something... but this way they got stuff in return!

Rainbow, got a little bit... but not what they wanted... and they had to give up something to get it.

Rainbow should have won this case in court and got more for it. Dish wins in a settlement here. The longer Dish was beaten down in court and the bigger the verdict, the worse that would have been for Dish in the long run.

A year from now, this will all be forgotten.... just the way Dish would like it!


I would say spot on, SV.
Everyone gets what they want, except of course, the price increase for us.

Also, if Ergen holds on to that spectrum, It's value will excede the quoted 80 mill. as there is only so much to go around. What remains to be seen is how he'll use it.:)

#180 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:16 PM

I would say spot on, SV.
Everyone gets what they want, except of course, the price increase for us.

We were getting an increase anyways ... unless another lawsuit against DISH stops it. :)




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