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4th Gen iPad?


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76 replies to this topic

#51 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:52 AM

You must not have read the part where I said apple will still sell millions of these providing concrete evidence that the foundation of my argument is in fact right on.


Apple selling millions of these rejects your statement that the pricing of them is "stupid". You have no idea of their costs to manufacture or distribute; hence no idea of the markup. Selling them at a price you think is "right" might be at an unsatisfactory ROI or even at a loss.
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#52 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:09 PM

To some extent the apples and oranges are being thrown around here :)

This isn't about whether or not Apple will sell enough iPad minis to be a success.

It is about whether or not Apple accomplishes what is presumably their goal of releasing such a device.

The iPad mini has two primary competitors:

1. Amazon Kindle
2. Apple iPad

IF iPad mini is chosen over an iPad due to price being lower... then Apple loses... because they have just cannibalized their own existing customer base and given them a cheaper option to buy an Apple product.

IF iPad mini is chosen over a Kindle, however, then Apple is gaining new customers.

BUT... the iPad mini to Kindle comparison isn't as favorable to existing Kindle owners. Kindle owners must like reading books and must like the cheaper price... and the iPad mini isn't cheap enough to compete in that market. The iPad mini isn't that much cheaper than the full-size iPad really... or to look at it another way, you can almost buy two Kindles for the price of one iPad mini.

I have an iPad... I want a new iPad... but I have no interest in the iPad mini. IF I wanted just a book-reader with some other options, the Kindle is far cheaper... since I want the other stuff that the iPad offers, I'd rather have the only slightly more expensive full-size iPad.

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#53 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 03:19 PM

IF iPad mini is chosen over an iPad due to price being lower... then Apple loses... because they have just cannibalized their own existing customer base and given them a cheaper option to buy an Apple product.

Respectfully disagree. I read somewhere an estimate that it costs them $200 to build and ship an iPad Mini they sell for $130 more. Maybe not iPad maxi margins, but pretty good margins none the less, IMHO.

And they still bring a new iTunes customer into the ecosystem that otherwise might have become a Kindle or Play Store customer. Just my .02.
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#54 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:47 PM

Just as Amazon is probably selling the Kindle's on a very narrow margin for the book sales, Apple can reduce their margin on the hardware with book, magazine, iTunes, apps and cellular revenue.

It becomes the razor / razor blade model very quickly. Or eyes on the tablet.

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#55 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:21 PM

Apple selling millions of these rejects your statement that the pricing of them is "stupid". You have no idea of their costs to manufacture or distribute; hence no idea of the markup. Selling them at a price you think is "right" might be at an unsatisfactory ROI or even at a loss.


It's not just me and I am not making this stuff up. The technical spec's speak for themselves. The mini is not a superior product to the competition, therefore it may not be stupid but it sure seems idiotic to price it higher than the competitions products.

Stewart,
It is not just the kindle the mini is competing with. Here is a link to an article that outlines all of the existing competition in this space.

http://www.networkwo...-cost-less.html

#56 OFFLINE   pfp

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:27 PM

It's not just me and I am not making this stuff up. The technical spec's speak for themselves. The mini is not a superior product to the competition, therefore it may not be stupid but it sure seems idiotic to price it higher than the competitions products.

Stewart,
It is not just the kindle the mini is competing with. Here is a link to an article that outlines all of the existing competition in this space.

http://www.networkwo...-cost-less.html


Take two identical devices then slap in apple logo and $50 higher price on one and it will sell millions more than the other.
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#57 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:43 PM

The iPad mini has two primary competitors:

1. Amazon Kindle
2. Apple iPad

IF iPad mini is chosen over an iPad due to price being lower... then Apple loses... because they have just cannibalized their own existing customer base and given them a cheaper option to buy an Apple product.

IF iPad mini is chosen over a Kindle, however, then Apple is gaining new customers.

<< Snipped bits out >>


A new customer choosing a mini over the full size iPad isn't a 'lose' situation for Apple, unless the margins are quite different.

I have an iPad... I want a new iPad... but I have no interest in the iPad mini. IF I wanted just a book-reader with some other options, the Kindle is far cheaper... since I want the other stuff that the iPad offers, I'd rather have the only slightly more expensive full-size iPad


Each person will have his own set of druthers and bench marks. Some will just compare processor speeds, pixel count, # of apps., whatever. Some will buy just because it is made by Apple; some won't due to that.

Oddly enough, perhaps, if I didn't have an iPad3 I might buy the mini. At least give it serious thought. Then, I love my MacBookAir, and the iPad is too big for me to hold reading on my back in bed.
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#58 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 06:02 PM

Respectfully disagree. I read somewhere an estimate that it costs them $200 to build and ship an iPad Mini they sell for $130 more. Maybe not iPad maxi margins, but pretty good margins none the less, IMHO.

And they still bring a new iTunes customer into the ecosystem that otherwise might have become a Kindle or Play Store customer. Just my .02.


Those figures generally are just in the actual costs of the parts, not the other costs involved.

But it's no secret that Apple has a higher markup than others. But there are benefits to the Apple experience as well.

#59 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:21 PM

But there are benefits to the Apple experience as well.


After 3 years experiencing apple products and services I have yet to understand what those benefits truly are. Unless by benefits you mean paying a premium for a device that becomes obsolete at or near the speed of light. Or, perhaps you meant that it is of great benefit that the itunes experience is complete crap. Or maybe it is that this premium device becomes premium by having to jail-break it myself, setting it free from the apple choke hold of mediocrity and death.

No, I just thought of it. By paying the apple premium you get absolutely stellar customer service and support that is unmatched in the CE industry. Just like the time my wife took our gen 2 apple tv into the store because it would no longer boot up and I just did not have time to mess with it. She called me three hours later, said the apple geek took it in the back, messed with it for three hours (yes, three hours) handed it back and said - uh, it is 24 days out of your 1 year warranty. There is nothing we can do, it is broken. Now, I completely understand how this could happen as we used it at least 6 times in the year we had it, I am sure it just was not designed for that type of heavy usage model.:rolleyes: Here are your options, number one, you can buy a brand new unit for full price. Option two, oh, sorry there is no option two.

But FYI you are going to be thrilled that we just replaced the apple tv 2 with an apple tv 3!! You want to see it? It is really cool and it now comes in white!!! And since we see you really did not have a great experience with your apple tv gen 2 we will sell you one today for - wait for it.......... FULL PRICE!!! Just incredible customer service, white glove, top notch. But then I do understand times are tight at apple, all the billions of dollars in profit are stranded somewhere outside of the US, kept there so that the company can avoid paying zero taxes on any profits made here in the USA.

I bet you are wondering what I told my wife to do. Yep, bring it on home as I am certainly not buying another apple tv even if it does come in white. She brought it home and I re-flashed it in itunes running on my Windows notebook (took me all of 20 min). Maybe the apple geniuses just could not figure this out on their own or maybe the macbook they used just did not have this capability.:rolleyes: I should really give them the benefit of the doubt.

So I have to agree there are a multitude of benefits that up until now I have just not taken the time to appreciate. I do thank apple for not supporting the ipad gen 1 and that pushed me to get rid of all three of them when I would normally have said it was completely premature to do so. I also thank the the lord that both of my kids have their eyes and hearts set on another brand of phone when we upgrade this spring. Cannot come fast enough for me, we will be fresh out of apples by spring. Woot!!:D

#60 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:31 PM

I was having trouble with my iPod, it was out of warranty but they got it working. No charge, and I was thinking I'd probably end up getting the new one when it came out. Not going to now.

Getting software updates on iPhones etc certainly more reliable compared to Android.

I hate iTunes as well, but don't use it much.

Ok, they didn't release iOS 6 for the original iPad. But I can walk into a cellular store, get an Android phone with 2 year contract (though free), and it has Gingerbread or Froyo. That's more pathetic to me.

Apple released iOS 6 for the 3GS. There has to be a reason it wasn't released for the first gen iPad.

Edited by dpeters11, 25 October 2012 - 07:37 PM.


#61 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:00 PM

Apple released iOS 6 for the 3GS. There has to be a reason it wasn't released for the first gen iPad.

3GS was still a currently active model when iOS 6 was released.
/steve

#62 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:04 PM

True. But i don't think that is a requirement. Certainly isn't for Android. Now, I will say there was a time I was upset with Apple. I was very annoyed when I was charged to get access to apps like Mail and such, then charged for OS updates. Fortunately, they don't do that anymore.

#63 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:06 PM

Respectfully disagree. I read somewhere an estimate that it costs them $200 to build and ship an iPad Mini they sell for $130 more. Maybe not iPad maxi margins, but pretty good margins none the less, IMHO.

And they still bring a new iTunes customer into the ecosystem that otherwise might have become a Kindle or Play Store customer. Just my .02.


It's not just me and I am not making this stuff up. The technical spec's speak for themselves. The mini is not a superior product to the competition, therefore it may not be stupid but it sure seems idiotic to price it higher than the competitions products.

Stewart,
It is not just the kindle the mini is competing with. Here is a link to an article that outlines all of the existing competition in this space.

http://www.networkwo...-cost-less.html


I'm less familiar with the other tablets, so I couldn't fairly bring them into my post conversation... though I know there are some others out there to compete with.

Generally what I'm saying is this...

Without even trying to compete directly with those products, the iPad was selling similar to warm pancakes :)

So... if Apple doesn't introduce the iPad mini, people would still line up to buy the iPad.

Apple introduces an iPad mini that is slightly cheaper than an iPad and has slightly less capability than the full-size iPad... but still costs substantially more than its closest competitors.

The comparison between a Kindle and an iPad full-size is all the different/better stuff you can do with an iPad besides the books. The comparison between a Kindle and the iPad mini is less sexy.

I can talk someone into spending a little more for an iPad... even a lot more... but I don't feel like I can talk someone into an iPad mini.

I have an iPhone, iPad, and iMac... I also have an older PC and still run Windows in a virtual machine on my Mac... I think I can be pretty fair about the things Apple does right and the places where it is worth the money Apple charges.

All I'm really saying is... this late into the game... I'll be surprised if the iPad mini does much damage to the Kindle/other smaller tablet market that the iPad full-size wasn't going to do anyway.

And ever user that buys an iPad mini, is not going to buy an iPad full size.

As I said... I have an iPhone, iPad, and iMac... it makes zero sense for me to consider an iPad mini.

For the consumer who wants the iPad mini... Apple might lost an iPad sale (so that's maybe an equal profit margin trade perhaps) but they might also lose an iPhone sale as well... because that person might opt for a cheap smartphone to make up the difference they had to pay for the iPad mini over a Kindle or similar smaller tablet.

Only time will tell... I just don't think Apple needed small, medium, and large sizes to compete... I think small and large were option enough.

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#64 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:19 PM

Stewart,
Totally agree with you on that point. The relatively small difference in price between the mini and the new 4th gen ipad is so close that portability alone does not make up for it.

Anyone looking at both should think long and hard before dropping $329 plus the cost of accessories on a mini. You are also almost guaranteed that most of that investment will evaproate once the gen 2 comes out in 6 - 8 months and with a retina display.

#65 OFFLINE   djlong

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:20 AM

The hardcover book I'm reading now costs $27.99. I'm almost done with it and I started it yesterday. I'm gonna open a thread about it later today, it's a really good read. Cost: $0.00. How can you beat that?


Simple. The stuff I like typically isn't available at a library - and when it is, it's often checked-out. Also, I didn't have to drive through town to get there. Another benefit is that my wife and daughter have Kindle software on their phones linked to my account so they can read the book as well. Oh yeah - I also have the newspaper delivered to my Kindle (it's never late, wet or missing). But, by the same token, I also voted in the town election to marshall the funds to build the new library. Not everyone is in my situation and, to me, libraries are something essential.

I certainly don't argue that there's a cost involved with convenience. But it's different strokes for different folks. It took some doing for me to 'switch' to e-books (for the most part) but that reasoning was because I was running out of bookshelves. The reason for THAT was that I simply liked owning the books. I like supporting the authors. They're performing a service that, to me, is worth it (at least when priced right - I remember the days of 'waiting for the paperback').

#66 OFFLINE   Sixto

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:55 AM

I'm just happy that I can buy an electronic copy, and can sync it to every device throughout the family, and have it forever. Great flexibility. It costs what it costs, but at least for me it's worth it, for others maybe not.

For the price of the iPad Mini, same, it is what it is, it's it's too high and doesn't sell well then they'll lower it if the targets don't work out.

For the iPad 4th generation, I may stick with my 3rd generation for while, unless I impulsively decide to sell it for more then $500 if I'd ever find anyone. Really would prefer to wait for a thinner and lighter 5th generation which will probably come with the newer less power consuming screen.

Certainly great to see them keep adding to the Apple ecosystem, the more the better, with UI consistently on every device. Also have a close family member who just moved the whole family to iPhone's, and they're now also looking at the iPad, and Apple TV for family photos on the big screen. Awesome time that we live in.
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#67 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 09:14 AM

Just because the maker of your device comes out with a new model, design or OS doesn't make what you have obsolete. Unless you're way focused on what's new and cool, or the new device does something you have to have or your life becomes a big empty hole.
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#68 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:53 AM

Just because the maker of your device comes out with a new model, design or OS doesn't make what you have obsolete. Unless you're way focused on what's new and cool, or the new device does something you have to have or your life becomes a big empty hole.


Right. I'm keeping my iPad 2 until they stop releasing iOS versions for it. That is probably the point I'll get a new one.

#69 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:06 AM

Right. I'm keeping my iPad 2 until they stop releasing iOS versions for it. That is probably the point I'll get a new one.

Not sure which model you have, but if you do get the urge to upgrade, a clean 32gb iPad 2 wifi is worth up to $345 on Amazon instant sale. They're also selling for over $400 on eBay.

Even used original iPad 16gb WiFi models are still selling for over $200!
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#70 OFFLINE   klang

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:21 AM

I've got an iPad 2 I'm still happy with. I'm waiting to see if an iPad 5 is due in the spring. That will be a two year upgrade cycle which is what I do with my phone.

#71 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:56 AM

Just because the maker of your device comes out with a new model, design or OS doesn't make what you have obsolete. Unless you're way focused on what's new and cool, or the new device does something you have to have or your life becomes a big empty hole.


It has nothing to do with what's cool. Once apple decides to stop supporting the device with OS upgrades it is considered end of life, done. Try buying a refurbished gen 1 ipad from the apple site, they no longer exist in the eyes of the company. Yes, it will still function just like early generation ipods and iphones do but application support quickly rolls off and batteries die and become more expensive to replace than what the device is worth.

The reason you are forced to sell is the larger community is just now beginning to realize that unsupported devices from apple are obsolete so there is a small window where you can sell it and recoup at least some of the premium you paid for it. Every new generation product is billed as the "best apple ithing ever." Case in point, if you just bought a third generation ipad you are not the happiest apple customer ever now that ipad 4 came out of nowhere.

The ipad mini will most likely refresh very quickly to add a retina display which it should already have had out of the gate at its premium to the marketplace. Buy one, see what it is worth after the new mini comes out next spring or summer. This trend apple has introduced to its loyal customers will eventually catch up with them. Three years of it and I am ready to tap out. Lesson learned. As someone else already stated we are living in great times, choices and options are quickly becoming abundant. This is good.

#72 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:14 PM

Simple. The stuff I like typically isn't available at a library - and when it is, it's often checked-out. Also, I didn't have to drive through town to get there. Another benefit is that my wife and daughter have Kindle software on their phones linked to my account so they can read the book as well. Oh yeah - I also have the newspaper delivered to my Kindle (it's never late, wet or missing). But, by the same token, I also voted in the town election to marshall the funds to build the new library. Not everyone is in my situation and, to me, libraries are something essential.

I certainly don't argue that there's a cost involved with convenience. But it's different strokes for different folks. It took some doing for me to 'switch' to e-books (for the most part) but that reasoning was because I was running out of bookshelves. The reason for THAT was that I simply liked owning the books. I like supporting the authors. They're performing a service that, to me, is worth it (at least when priced right - I remember the days of 'waiting for the paperback').


I can't even imagine how much my wife and I would spend on books if we had to buy them. But, you're right, different people will look at this differently. I've never had an urge to keep books, except for a very few reference books.

Don't get me wrong, if folks want to read e-books it makes little difference to me. What worries me is the direction libraries are taking. But that's a story for another thread.

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#73 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:24 PM

Right. I'm keeping my iPad 2 until they stop releasing iOS versions for it. That is probably the point I'll get a new one.


Case in point!

In some instances with computers, receivers, phones and tablets, they don't become obsolete even when the next OS won't run on them, perhaps even when all updates stop. Mileage, usage varies.

Now, my 8500 is obsolete!
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#74 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:24 PM

I have an original iPad... the biggest problem right now with it is... they didn't support iOS6 on it, and the iOS 5.1.1 has been buggy for me... lots of crashes... so it has reached its end of life in terms of support, though not for usefulness.

IF I had a new iPad from earlier in the year, I wouldn't be tempted... but having skipped iPad 2, and the earlier release... this new iPad is more tempting to me for all the things I'll get since the original.

I had the iPhone 3G... and didn't upgrade that until iPhone 4. I have no plans for an iPhone 5... I'm still happy and 5 doesn't offer enough to suck me into more money and a new 2 year contract with the phone company.

Maybe iPhone 6 will tempt me. I'm fine skipping every other generation or so to get the most bang for my upgrade bucks.

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#75 OFFLINE   jdskycaster

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:47 PM

Case in point!

In some instances with computers, receivers, phones and tablets, they don't become obsolete even when the next OS won't run on them, perhaps even when all updates stop. Mileage, usage varies.

Now, my 8500 is obsolete!


Except prior to the new world of apple it was considered standard practice to design a removable battery into any portable device. I am very happy to see that new offerings in the tablet arena will soon be offering this as an option. Sure it may not be as thin as a sheet of paper but contrary to current popular belief form should often times follow functionality.

Anyone with a two to three year old device is walking a fine line where the internal battery will cost more to replace than the device is worth. Another reason I dumped my Gen 1's a month ago.

As for running an older OS, Apple makes sure new features and functionality are inherent to any new release. If you cannot consume it on your device then it becomes that much less desirable and therefore can still inhabit the walled garden of apple it is just relegated to the area closest to the dung heap.




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