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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Where is 1080p programming?


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30 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:35 PM

Any decent HD display these days does 1080p/24...just check the next time you play a BD movie.


Yes, but that wasn't my query!

Others have replied, and I think I am a tad closer to understanding more of the issue. For broadcast or VOD viewing, at some point the 24 fps gets converted to 60, 120, or 240 fps. Is it not sent out at 60fps, and our TV sets show it at that or the higher frame rates got by interpolation and or duplication?
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#22 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:06 PM

Right, but you forgot to include into the chain DVR/STB what doing own conversion of movie's stream 1080p24 into 1080i30 or 720p60 or pass-thru.

#23 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 05:34 PM

Yes, but that wasn't my query!

Others have replied, and I think I am a tad closer to understanding more of the issue. For broadcast or VOD viewing, at some point the 24 fps gets converted to 60, 120, or 240 fps. Is it not sent out at 60fps, and our TV sets show it at that or the higher frame rates got by interpolation and or duplication?


Again, AIUI, though as P. Smith notes its a complicated and at times proprietary process.

But in general if a standard 60 Hz set receives a 1080p@24 Hz signal it adds 2:3 pull-down on a frame basis with one frame repeated once, the next twice, the next once, the next twice, etc. to pad the frame rate up to an average of 60/sec. for display which causes judder of course.

For 120 and 240 Hz there is no pull-down process to add redundant frames, but the signal is kept at the native 24 fps rate of the input signal and screen is simply refreshed at 5 or 10 times per frame for a judder free picture.

#24 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 07:55 PM

Again, I am talking broadcast, not blu-ray, DVD, laser disc nor tape!

Are you two saying DIRECTV® sends 24 fps?

Mr. Smith: Please don't tell me what I've forgotten when you don't understand my question.
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#25 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:14 PM

Yes, for VOD, PPV.

#26 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:31 PM

If you want to consider the 1080p PPV time cycled programs in the 100-200 channel range as a form of broadcast, then yes but in 1080p@24 Hz format.

But does DIRECTV broadcast any programs in 1080p@60? No, and not even for internet VOD or satellite PUSH content to an HD-DVR's HDD either.

#27 OFFLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:18 PM

Just picking nits here, but the ATSC standard does include 24fps as an option. There are a total of 12 different NTSC HD formats allowed, including both 24 and 23.976. Check the Wiki.

In practice, all broadcasters in the US have chosen to pick just one of those 12 formats and to stick with it at all times. In addition, I believe they are all using one of only two HD formats (what we typically call 1080i and 720p).

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Cool. So I wonder what it would look like if say a (hypothetical) broadcaster decided to transmit at 24fps (maybe to save on bandwidth or something) and my vintage (2001) HDTV with integrated 8vsb OTA receiver were tuned in on it. I would assume it would just be "converted" to the set's (native) 1080i (as it does with 720p signals) or in the case of standard - def (480i) supposedly to 540p. Obviously somewhat depends on the resolution of the signal, but I'd be curious. I can't even recall now if 24fps is supported in the lower resolutions.

Anyway, if the circuitry is indeed included in all tuners, I would guess (on this set at least) it should just appear as any other ordinary 24fps material would that were broadcast at 60 fields per second.

They've obviouly left a lot of "wiggle room" for various possibilities in the orginal implementation of digital broadcast standards. I also like that they've apparently been updated to include the newer compression standards.

With all of this then begs the question of the OP. I guess my answer would also be that there's no reason they couldn't do it, either, but there wouldn't be much noticeable inprovement for most folks, (esp. in my case with my old TV) and those that want it can at least enjoy 1080p/24 PPV channels already.

On another note, there's supposedly talk of theatrical moving toward 48fps! Might that be some kind of conversion problem, or does it fit mathematically like 60 fields seems to with 24fps? Hmmm..... Can't wait to see that on the big screen. Maybe we might live to be able to say goodbye to judder forever!

#28 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:14 AM

Cool. So I wonder what it would look like if say a (hypothetical) broadcaster decided to transmit at 24fps (maybe to save on bandwidth or something) and my vintage (2001) HDTV with integrated 8vsb OTA receiver were tuned in on it. I would assume it would just be "converted" to the set's (native) 1080i (as it does with 720p signals) or in the case of standard - def (480i) supposedly to 540p.
You just invented the personal format :)
Obviously somewhat depends on the resolution of the signal, but I'd be curious. I can't even recall now if 24fps is supported in the lower resolutions.
That would require a reference. ;)
Anyway, if the circuitry is indeed included in all tuners,
Nope, tuners are not dependent to the parameter as a resolution, colors, etc
I would guess (on this set at least) it should just appear as any other ordinary 24fps material would that were broadcast at 60 fields per second.
Umm, sorry, you didn't get how it working.
They've obviouly left a lot of "wiggle room" for various possibilities in the orginal implementation of digital broadcast standards. I also like that they've apparently been updated to include the newer compression standards.

With all of this then begs the question of the OP. I guess my answer would also be that there's no reason they couldn't do it, either, but there wouldn't be much noticeable inprovement for most folks, (esp. in my case with my old TV) and those that want it can at least enjoy 1080p/24 PPV channels already.

I recall theater's projectors just holding each frame for 2x time longer while freq of changing frames on the matte is 48 Hz in reality.
On another note, there's supposedly talk of theatrical moving toward 48fps! Might that be some kind of conversion problem, or does it fit mathematically like 60 fields seems to with 24fps? Hmmm..... Can't wait to see that on the big screen. Maybe we might live to be able to say goodbye to judder forever!

See above in color

#29 OFFLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:42 PM


See above in color


I didn't "invent" 540p. It just happens to be the native scan rate of standard def in this particular direct view set (RCA F38). All 480i is converted to 540p for display.

But it is rumored, according to its "unofficial FAQ" to accept 540p through the component input. I wouldn't even begin to know where one might find a 540p signal to try it with.

#30 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:55 PM

It's close to EU 576p50, perhaps it's universal model for US and EU.

#31 OFFLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

I'd always just assumed it had something to do with 540 being half of 1080, perhaps making it easier for the picture tube and display electronics to deal with.

I can say with certainty, though, that all 480i is, in fact, de-interlaced for display on this set. If anyone remembers those iGlasses 3D DVDs, they never worked on this set because both L and R images dispay simultaneously rather than one after the other. I'd always have to set it up on an old standard def picture tube set to properly view the 3D effect. (Apologies for straying OT.)




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