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What are your plans after price freeze expires?


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76 replies to this topic

#51 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:11 PM

It's actually a case of collusion when you think about it. Sort of like DOC fees at a car dealer.

collusion
1. a secret agreement, especially for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy: Some of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.
2. Law . a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement: collusion of husband and wife to obtain a divorce.
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What is the secret? What is illegal?

Charging a fee for the service is not against the law ... and there is no secret that fees are charged for having a DVR on the account. DISH and other providers openly publish their fee schedules, which are readable by subscribers and non-subscribers.

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#52 OFFLINE   Orion9

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 10:20 AM

The first dvr I had with no fee was a Replay TV and it had a remote head you stuck on the receiver that changed the channel.


When ReplayTV and TiVo came out, ReplayTV cost just about the same as a TiVo plus lifetime service. So I think it had a fee, just priced differently. Everyone breaks out their fees differently so I think you should look at the total cost and not get annoyed by a certain label on some fraction of your total fees. So far to me it looks like my 722K with dual tuners, HD, and much more disk space, is costing about as much over time as my original single tuner SD TiVo plus lifetime service, so I think it's OK.

#53 OFFLINE   inazsully

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:33 PM

collusion
1. a secret agreement, especially for fraudulent or treacherous purposes; conspiracy: Some of his employees were acting in collusion to rob him.
2. Law . a secret understanding between two or more persons to gain something illegally, to defraud another of his or her rights, or to appear as adversaries though in agreement: collusion of husband and wife to obtain a divorce.
dictionary.com

What is the secret? What is illegal?

Charging a fee for the service is not against the law ... and there is no secret that fees are charged for having a DVR on the account. DISH and other providers openly publish their fee schedules, which are readable by subscribers and non-subscribers.

Well, the secret would be that they did not want anybody to know that the dvr fee agreement was made in the first place. The fraud part would have to be proved in a court of law. But, in the court of public opinion the fraud here is two or more companies agreeing to ad a charge for the simple purpose of profit, ie: to charge for something that did not exist in the past (a dvr fee). In this case, as long as every provider does it the customer has no option to change providers in an attempt to not be charged said fee. As I mentioned concerning the DOC fee at car dealers. They all decided together to charge a DOC fee. No exceptions. All for the good of the owner. It is what it is. Nothing we can do about it if we want the service.

#54 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 04:40 PM

I just don't see the legitimacy of it. I can see a lease fee if you're leasing the box. But to add a DVR fee on top of the lease fee makes no sense. If you buy the box, adding a DVR fee makes no sense. It doesn't cost Dish a dime for the customer to use the DVR functions. In fact, they really don't know if you're using it or not.

And this is all on top of your subscription rate.

When you buy a refrigerator, the manufacturer or retailer don't charge you extra to use the ice maker.
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#55 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:10 PM

Well, the secret would be that they did not want anybody to know that the dvr fee agreement was made in the first place.

It is not kept a secret. As one signs up for service it is disclosed. Before one signs up for service the fee can easily be found.

As I mentioned concerning the DOC fee at car dealers. They all decided together to charge a DOC fee. No exceptions. All for the good of the owner. It is what it is. Nothing we can do about it if we want the service.

It is a payment for a service rendered - and it is disclosed as the purchase deal is signed. At least it was when I bought my cars.


I just don't see the legitimacy of it. I can see a lease fee if you're leasing the box. But to add a DVR fee on top of the lease fee makes no sense. If you buy the box, adding a DVR fee makes no sense. It doesn't cost Dish a dime for the customer to use the DVR functions.

It may not have cost DISH a dime for you to use the DVR but it cost them a pretty penny to develop and maintain a DVR for your use.

Why should a non-DVR customer pay the same as a DVR customer when they are not getting the benefit of the DVR? A person who chooses to have a DVR and not use it still has a DVR available to them (and they could choose to not have a DVR). DVR fees are avoidable ... don't have a DVR.

In fact, they really don't know if you're using it or not.

If it is connected to phone or internet they do. :)

And this is all on top of your subscription rate.

OK ... lets make a deal. Raise EVERYONE'S rate by $7 and cancel the per account DVR fee. :D

When you buy a refrigerator, the manufacturer or retailer don't charge you extra to use the ice maker.

You pay a monthly fee to your refrigerator supplier? Perhaps you do if it is from a rental place. I would not be surprised to pay more per month to rent a refrigerator with an ice maker.

Manufacturers and retailers charge extra for refrigerators with ice makers.

#56 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:23 PM

You pay a monthly fee to your refrigerator supplier?

No, I don't. That's the point. I pay once when I buy it with no monthly fees to use it. Same should apply for the DVR I bought.

In fact, I should be able to buy a third party DVR and use it. Seems like people could do that in the past if I remember right. Maybe that was pre-DVR days.
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#57 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:52 PM

No, I don't. That's the point. I pay once when I buy it with no monthly fees to use it. Same should apply for the DVR I bought.

Somehow the fridge I bought requires electricity to keep it running and the car I bought requires gas and other consumables.

If I understand correctly, you have already said that you don't mind paying the monthly lease fee or additional receiver fees. I don't see DVR service to be much different than any other service fee. I would watch a lot less TV if it were not captured for me on my DVR. If I were to take the hours watched divided by the monthly cost having the DVR increasing the hours watched makes my subscription a better value. Even with the fee factored in.

In fact, I should be able to buy a third party DVR and use it.

You can ... you can even build your own DVR ... just don't expect it to work as well as a DVR built in to your satellite receiver. Or be cheaper than the DVR fee you don't want to pay.

#58 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 05:58 PM

Somehow the fridge I bought requires electricity to keep it running and the car I bought requires gas and other consumables.


I knew somebody would bring that into it, but remember, the DVR uses electricity also on top of everything else. That doesn't get paid to Dish though, so it isn't really relevant any more than it is on a fridge.
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#59 OFFLINE   Orion9

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:01 PM

When you buy a refrigerator, the manufacturer or retailer don't charge you extra to use the ice maker.


But if you buy, for example, Windows 7, and you want the features of a higher edition, you just pay more, because in most cases, those extra features are already on your disk. You just pay to use them. Many software products are like that these days.

Some hardware products are different only in the firmware that is loaded on them and some even have the same firmware and become the cheaper or more expensive product via a jumper. etc.

My car came with a satellite radio but I have to pay to use it. My neighbors car and my car both have GPS built-in. Only he has to pay to use his and using mine was included in the base price.

There are an infinite number of pricing analogies that you can point to so you can always say someone/something else is not like "this".

Edited by Orion9, 26 November 2012 - 06:13 PM.


#60 OFFLINE   tsmacro

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:18 PM

Wow there's still people complaining about DVR fees? Really?! Thought that ship sailed years ago. Like noted above no one has to pay a DVR fee if they don't want to, so if the fee bothers you then get rid of the DVR. Personally the $6/mo I pay for my DVR is about the best monthly investment I have for my entertainment dollar!


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#61 OFFLINE   Orion9

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:42 PM

Here's another one I just remembered. At the optometrist, they had me look into a machine which took digital pictures of my retinas. Later the doctor told me we could "develop" those pictures and she could look at them without dilating my eyes and we would have a nice record for future comparison - but this would cost extra. Or, she could dilate my eyes and peer in the old-fashioned way. I went with the modern more expensive way, and she said, "OK we'll develop the pictures" and with a click of her mouse, there they were. The "magic" of digital "development". :D Of course the work of having me sit in front of the machine had already been done by the technician. It cost me extra to save the doctor from basically redoing it the old way. (Not to mention they didn't have to send me home with disposable sunglasses.)

Just another funny pricing model for you. Value to you is often priced higher even if it costs them less.

#62 OFFLINE   mike1977

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:53 PM

I don't pay Microsoft a monthly fee to use my hard drive and Windows on my computer and maintain it with the updates.

So what if one has to pay more for a certain model with more features? That should be it, and done with. Isn't all the software doing is reading the interactive tv guide? Why isn't there a separate non-dvr receiver interactive tv guide fee to maintain THAT?

#63 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:04 PM

BTW: One of the features of the DVR is the 9 day guide, instead of 48 hours. Being able to look ahead is just another benefit that comes from having a DVR.

And for the $10 DVR fee that applies to my Hopper I get to use PTAT ... and record things that I didn't know were on. Every once in a while I hear of a show that was on last night or last week that is still on my Hopper available to be viewed. Value for $$.

#64 OFFLINE   Orion9

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

So what if one has to pay more for a certain model with more features? That should be it, and done with.


That's certainly one way to do it. ie: take the monthly cost, multiply it by some estimate of the lifetime of the unit and add it to the price.

Of course when you do that, many will complain about the high up-front cost. Many people want the cheap/free cell phone and barely bother to ask what the monthly fee is going to be. For better or worse, many companies have figured this out.

#65 OFFLINE   brant

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

You can ... you can even build your own DVR ... just don't expect it to work as well as a DVR built in to your satellite receiver. Or be cheaper than the DVR fee you don't want to pay.


while not as bad as most cableco dvr's, dish networks dvr is nothing to brag about. I think the lack of 3rd party availability is what keeps dish and DirecTV from putting anything really worth paying for on the market.

There is a 3rd party Dvr already built and waiting for dish or direct to pick it up, but i doubt it will ever happen.

Both dish and DirecTV built USB tuners for windows media center also, but for reasons unexplained, decided not to make them available.

#66 OFFLINE   brant

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 09:36 PM

BTW: One of the features of the DVR is the 9 day guide, instead of 48 hours. Being able to look ahead is just another benefit that comes from having a DVR.

.


I have a 14 day guide that costs $0/mo with media center. SageTV also provided their guide service for free.

As far as I know, all htpc front-ends provide their guides for free.

#67 OFFLINE   inazsully

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 11:10 PM

I did not say that the dvr fee was a secret. I said that the agreement between the providers to all ad a dvr fee was the secret. Hence the term "collusion". If all the providers do it then the customer is caught between a rock and a hard place. If Directv decided to drop its dvr fee how long do you think it would take Dish to follow suit? This type of universally added fee concept, "collusion", is so unfair that a few states have put a ceiling on DOC fees concerning car dealers.

#68 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:19 AM

Ok ... so if everybody is doing it then it must be a crime. Everyone charges an additional receiver fee. Must be collusion. Everyone charges a monthly fee for their service. That is definitely collusion.

More like market forces. DISH did not have a DVR fee ... then their DVRs got popular enough that they found it to be a good way of making money so they charged a fee PER receiver ... except on the top package where AEP included the DVR fee. Then they didn't include the fee in AEP (back to per receiver fees). Then DISH moved to a per account fee (but somehow charged more for a solo DVR than a solo receiver and a duo DVR than a duo receiver). And with the 922 they added an additional couple of dollars for the larger hard drive.

Now with The Hopper the per account whole home DVR fee is $10 ... which happens to be what DirecTV charges. DISH still charges $6 on non-Hopper accounts. DISH still charges more for non Hopper DVRs than they do similar receivers.

Occam's razor says each company is just charging what they believe the market will bear. But if you believe DISH and DirecTV got together behind the scenes to conspire to set up this price structure I suppose I can't stop you.

#69 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:40 AM

There is a 3rd party Dvr already built and waiting for dish or direct to pick it up, but i doubt it will ever happen.

Both dish and DirecTV built USB tuners for windows media center also, but for reasons unexplained, decided not to make them available.



My guess is that is has something to do with encryption of content.
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#70 OFFLINE   brant

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:14 AM

My guess is that is has something to do with encryption of content.


I was thinking more along the lines of lost revenue. They wouldn't have a way of charging you extra for connecting extenders to the system. WMC handles cablecard encryption just fine. The biggest complaint of cablecard users is that content can only be watched on the PC that recorded it and its extenders; you can't transfer recordings between PC's.

#71 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:36 AM

^ Well, that's pretty much the same as the DVRs. I can see that for Premium channels, and possibly for traditional cable/sat channels like USA, TBS, et al., but I can't see it for OTA channels.

Maybe a site license/key where you could play content on any machine you own, perhaps with a limit of 10 or 15 devices.

But that's another thread I guess.

Nobody has really answered the question I asked a while back though if I discontinue my subscription but keep the 512 connected:

Question though. I've read that some people get some programming on certain receivers even without a paid subscription. What, if anything is available? Is there a list of channels? What about the rotating free preview channels?


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#72 OFFLINE   tsmacro

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 09:52 AM

I don't pay Microsoft a monthly fee to use my hard drive and Windows on my computer and maintain it with the updates.

So what if one has to pay more for a certain model with more features? That should be it, and done with. Isn't all the software doing is reading the interactive tv guide? Why isn't there a separate non-dvr receiver interactive tv guide fee to maintain THAT?


There are some differences here, first of all Microsoft isn't providing you content just software and maybe hardware depending what you buy from them. They've chosen a pricing model that you either pay upfront (when you buy a computer part of the price, a pretty big part actually, is what the computer manufacturer pays to software companies like Microsoft to have their popular software on their computers) or you pay to upgrade when Microsoft comes out with a new version of one of their programs.

Dish on the other hand is primarily in the business of providing entertainment content to your home. When they started they actually had a similar business model, you pay for your equipment and installation up front, but of course the difference here is that to view the content you did have to keep paying a monthly fee for it. Well the industry figured out that they could spread out the cost of their equipment & installation by adding the cost to the monthly bill and getting customers to agree to a minimum subscription time (aka contract). As it turns out people preferred this and they got a lot more people to sign up for their services over the old way of paying upfront for equipment and labor. Also they noticed that subscribers who had DVR's cost them more because of the cost of developing, manufacturing and maintaining them. So sure they could just charge their customers who want DVR's an upfront charge for them but market forces have spoken and has shown that people are more willing to pay a small monthly fee rather than a few hundred dollars upfront.

Edited by tsmacro, 28 November 2012 - 08:30 AM.



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#73 OFFLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:03 PM

Which I won't be doing.

WMC, OTA, DVD, maybe some streaming, etc. Might even look at trying FTA. My ISP has a TV page included in their home page that offers quite a bit of choice in free programming, both classic and current.

If I can get anything in stray programming from Dish, fine.

I already have the PC, etc. so no cost involved there.

No matter what, I won't be paying $700/yr or more plus getting nickle and dimed by a DVR fee.


So don't get a DVR. Just a VIP 222.

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#74 OFFLINE   brant

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 01:19 PM

Nobody has really answered the question I asked a while back though if I discontinue my subscription but keep the 512 connected:


I'm not sure about it working with a dish receiver, but you can pickup whatever is in the clear, including free previews, with a turbo-8psk tuner card.

#75 OFFLINE   joyandjerry

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 02:20 PM

Wow there's still people complaining about DVR fees? Really?! Thought that ship sailed years ago. Like noted above no one has to pay a DVR fee if they don't want to, so if the fee bothers you then get rid of the DVR. Personally the $6/mo I pay for my DVR is about the best monthly investment I have for my entertainment dollar!


+2!!! The DVR allows us to watch so many things we enjoy. It is an excellent value!
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