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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Are any receivers responsive?


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544 replies to this topic

#251 ONLINE   MysteryMan

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:21 PM

I have two HR24-500s. Both are set with Native-On, Scrolling Effects-Off, All Resolutions selected and both are connected to AV/receivers via HDMI cable. Current software on both is 0x05d2. Time frame for channel changes, HD-HD 5 seconds, HD-SD 7seconds, SD-SD 3 seconds. Considering my settings and what takes place when I change channels I'd say they are pretty fast. The only slow features are the Active Channel and TV Apps. And from what I've read, the new national release (0x062c) is improving speed.
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#252 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:30 PM

These "slowness" threads are enough to drive anyone crazy. Short drive for me.... :lol:

What everyone seems to be talking about is the process of getting to a program. That's not an HDD problem, I think. I've taken 2TB HDDs on/in 21-700s and put them on/in 24s and never seen any of the slowness of the 21-700s (which, I think, were the best of the 21 series).

Rich


Some of the complaints I've seen are in going through the guide, even with scrolling effects off, compared to the same thing on a non DVR. I think there may be a difference due to the drive there, as the guide is on the hard drive, and not in memory like it is on a receiver.

#253 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:31 PM

I have two HR24-500s. Both are set with Native-On, Scrolling Effects-Off, All Resolutions selected and both are connected to AV/receivers via HDMI cable. Current software on both is 0x05d2. Time frame for channel changes, HD-HD 5 seconds, HD-SD 7seconds, SD-SD 3 seconds. Considering my settings and what takes place when I change channels I'd say they are pretty fast. The only slow features are the Active Channel and TV Apps. And from what I've read, the new national release (0x062c) is improving speed.


All 12 of mine are set the same way. I'd kinda like to play with a new Dish DVR and see how they perform. Just out of curiosity. I don't know anyone who has Dish.

Rich

#254 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:36 PM

My take between the HD receivers and the HDDVR receivers is that there is a lot more going on in the DVR than in the HD receiver.
There are a lot more graphics in the DVR to manipulate and load into memory.
The HD has one tuner and the DVR has 2.
It appears to me that the DVR is always buffering 2 tuners.
It also looks like the DVR starts buffering before anyting is put to the TV screen.

DMA is a wonderful and liberating thing. It takes much of the load off of the main processor so that the many dedicated processors (decoding, decryption, character generator/video mixer, scaler) can do their thing.

Since the DIRECTV HR2x series can't do PIP or a second TV, the second tuner is a red herring. If the second tuner happens to be active, most of the processing is done in custom hardware.

The drag seems more likely related to the database engine that plays big in the guide and scheduling which is where much of the real dragging happens.

Remote response seems likely just a poor balance of priority. That other software on very similar platforms (or the same platform in the case of the THR22) moves along nicely pretty much invalidates the idea that the hardware is the problem.
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#255 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:37 PM

Some of the complaints I've seen are in going through the guide, even with scrolling effects off, compared to the same thing on a non DVR. I think there may be a difference due to the drive there, as the guide is on the hard drive, and not in memory like it is on a receiver.


I don't think comparing the performance of a receiver to a DVR doesn't seem like a good thing to do. Logically, you'd expect the receiver to do what it does more quickly than a DVR. I've never had a plain receiver, so I have no idea what they're like, but I've read enough about them to know they outperform the DVRs, as I'd expect. Yeah, it would be nice to have the Guide in memory on the DVRs too.

Rich

#256 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:46 PM

All 12 of mine are set the same way. I'd kinda like to play with a new Dish DVR and see how they perform. Just out of curiosity. I don't know anyone who has Dish.

Rich

So I've got some different firmware right now and reran channel changing times.

My TV takes 2 sec to change HD from its antenna.

My DVR with native on, has slowed to about 6 sec changing channels that are different resolution.
Turning native off has any channel change take 3 or less seconds.
SD to SD doesn't look to take the 2 sec my TV does for HD.

These were timed by using the guide to select a channel, and then using the previous button to toggle. Press and count 1, 2 ,3, ... until video displays. Audio came much faster.

I haven't had any Dish HD, but have had U-verse. U-verse doesn't give the user the native on feature.
Does dish?
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#257 OFFLINE   wrj

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

All 12 of mine are set the same way. I'd kinda like to play with a new Dish DVR and see how they perform. Just out of curiosity. I don't know anyone who has Dish.

Rich


My neighbor has the Hopper and my daughter has DISH (no Hopper). Those DVRs are faster than my HR22 when in the guide and/or channeling channels. However, my HR22 is not always slow. At times, it is decent and acceptable (but never fast). I just haven't been able to see any pattern to when it performs faster.

Also, you mention earlier about the HR24 speed. It seems most people feel that is fast (compared to the 22).

#258 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:48 PM

I think there may be a difference due to the drive there, as the guide is on the hard drive, and not in memory like it is on a receiver.

I'm thinking the guide data is stored in RAM in both receivers and DVRs. There's at least twice as much data to shuffle in the DVRs (14 days .vs. 7 days).
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#259 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 12:50 PM

Does dish?

No, they do not.
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK

#260 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:04 PM

No, they do not.

Thank you.

This should put them on par with U-verse and for those wanting to "A-B" Dish with DirecTV, they should turn native off for it.
A.K.A VOS

#261 ONLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:20 PM

This should put them on par with U-verse and for those wanting to "A-B" Dish with DirecTV, they should turn native off for it.

For those without very fancy TVs or outboard scalers, native off is probably the best choice anyway.
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK

#262 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

For those without very fancy TVs or outboard scalers, native off is probably the best choice anyway.

I use both, as I have a good TV, and one that isn't so much.
It's fairly obvious that U-verse isn't looking at the higher end of the market, and are merely trying to be better than cable.
A.K.A VOS

#263 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:27 PM

So I've got some different firmware right now and reran channel changing times.

My TV takes 2 sec to change HD from its antenna.

My DVR with native on, has slowed to about 6 sec changing channels that are different resolution.
Turning native off has any channel change take 3 or less seconds.
SD to SD doesn't look to take the 2 sec my TV does for HD.

These were timed by using the guide to select a channel, and then using the previous button to toggle. Press and count 1, 2 ,3, ... until video displays. Audio came much faster.

I haven't had any Dish HD, but have had U-verse. U-verse doesn't give the user the native on feature.
Does dish?


I've never even seen a Dish DVR.

Rich

#264 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

My neighbor has the Hopper and my daughter has DISH (no Hopper). Those DVRs are faster than my HR22 when in the guide and/or channeling channels. However, my HR22 is not always slow. At times, it is decent and acceptable (but never fast). I just haven't been able to see any pattern to when it performs faster.

Also, you mention earlier about the HR24 speed. It seems most people feel that is fast (compared to the 22).


I've only had one 22-100. When I got it and activated it, I was stunned by how well it worked. FF two weeks and I had a non-functioning 22-100. With the HDD empty it was as fast as any HR I'd had up to that time, but as I added content, it slowed up and I finally gave up on it. By that time it wouldn't even respond to either IR or RF remote input.

The 24s are just faster than all their predecessors. In every way. And, apparently, as reliable as a good 20-700.

Rich

#265 OFFLINE   wrj

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:41 PM

For those without very fancy TVs or outboard scalers, native off is probably the best choice anyway.


Help me understand, what does "native off" or "native on" do? I have it set to "off" on my panasonic plasma which is capable of 1080p.

#266 ONLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:47 PM

Help me understand, what does "native off" or "native on" do? I have it set to "off" on my panasonic plasma which is capable of 1080p.


I have 8 Panny plasmas and all are set to native on. PQs fine on each of them.

Rich

#267 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:57 PM

Help me understand, what does "native off" or "native on" do? I have it set to "off" on my panasonic plasma which is capable of 1080p.


I simplest form...

Different channels broadcast at different resolutions.

Almost all displays only show one Particular resolution.

This means either the directv receiver, the TV, or some other device between them will be making the resolutions all the same so that the TV can show the picture.

Native on sends the original resolution to the TV or other device, and then let's the TV or other device do all the converting.

Native off means you set the resolution out, preferably to the native resolution of the TV, (otherwise it would still have to convert again) and the DIRECTV receiver does all the converting.

The big deal is that if you leave native on, the TV has to change its input resolutions and re handshake via hdmi to show the new channel at the new resolution being output by the receiver, which takes more time to do, than if the directv receiver always sends out the same resolution.

Personally, I won't use native on.

#268 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 01:59 PM

Help me understand, what does "native off" or "native on" do? I have it set to "off" on my panasonic plasma which is capable of 1080p.

Harsh is a Dish sub, so was a good one for the question about theirs.

As to native "on":
What this does is same the same resolution the channel was broadcast in to the TV. Since the broadcasters use SD 480i, HD 720p & 1080i, this will cause the receiver to constantly change the output as needed.

If you have a 1080p TV, you may just set the output to 1080, and turn native off so the receiver always scales everything to 1080. Only shows that are 1080p/24 will output in 1080p, if you select it in the setup menu.

Why some use native on is their TV can give a better picture by doing the scaling with the TV, or their AVR, so they don't want the receiver to do anything to change the resolution.
A.K.A VOS

#269 OFFLINE   bobcamp1

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 07:58 AM

I have two HR24-500s. Both are set with Native-On, Scrolling Effects-Off, All Resolutions selected and both are connected to AV/receivers via HDMI cable. Current software on both is 0x05d2. Time frame for channel changes, HD-HD 5 seconds, HD-SD 7seconds, SD-SD 3 seconds. Considering my settings and what takes place when I change channels I'd say they are pretty fast. The only slow features are the Active Channel and TV Apps. And from what I've read, the new national release (0x062c) is improving speed.


You've missed the point. Although it USUALLY takes that amount of time, at random times for no obvious reason it takes an additional 5- 30 seconds, mainly because the receiver becomes totally unresponsive. Not everyone is affected by this, but quite a few are.

Also, those times are for the fastest DVR D* has (aside from the THR22), which means the average D* customer is experiencing slower times.

With native on, the times for FIOS are either <500 ms or 3 s, depending on if the new channel is same res. as old channel. If native is off, then every channel change is 300-500 ms. Seven seconds seems fast, until you get used to 500 ms, then 7 seconds is an eternity.

One thing D* can do is what FIOS does. If the old channel and new channel are the same resolution, and native is on, don't start a new HDMI handshake. Just leave the resolution as is and just change the channel.

#270 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:07 AM

One thing D* can do is what FIOS does. If the old channel and new channel are the same resolution, and native is on, don't start a new HDMI handshake. Just leave the resolution as is and just change the channel.


That is Brilliant and I hope Directv is reading this Thread (we know they aren't)!!! :D
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#271 ONLINE   MysteryMan

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:07 AM

You've missed the point. Although it USUALLY takes that amount of time, at random times for no obvious reason it takes an additional 5- 30 seconds, mainly because the receiver becomes totally unresponsive. Not everyone is affected by this, but quite a few are.

Also, those times are for the fastest DVR D* has (aside from the THR22), which means the average D* customer is experiencing slower times.

With native on, the times for FIOS are either <500 ms or 3 s, depending on if the new channel is same res. as old channel. If native is off, then every channel change is 300-500 ms. Seven seconds seems fast, until you get used to 500 ms, then 7 seconds is an eternity.

One thing D* can do is what FIOS does. If the old channel and new channel are the same resolution, and native is on, don't start a new HDMI handshake. Just leave the resolution as is and just change the channel.

I have never experienced additional delay times of 5-30 seconds on either of my HR24-500s and I have had them for quite some time.
DIRECTV customer since 1995.

#272 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:41 AM

With native on, the times for FIOS are either <500 ms or 3 s, depending on if the new channel is same res. as old channel. If native is off, then every channel change is 300-500 ms. Seven seconds seems fast, until you get used to 500 ms, then 7 seconds is an eternity.

FIOS is using MPEG-2. MPEG-4 takes more processing.
A.K.A VOS

#273 OFFLINE   JeffBowser

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:00 AM

Aye, another reason I'd love to see more processing power thrown at these boxes. Then they can be sloppy in their code all day long, and one won't have to sit for loooong seconds waiting for DVR response.

FIOS is using MPEG-2. MPEG-4 takes more processing.


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#274 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:01 AM

Less than 500 ms

My Sony TV can't change channels this fast with MPEG-2 OTA.
"One, thousand, two," is the fastest it will tune. It's the same for channels that are the same resolution or different resolutions.
A.K.A VOS

#275 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:03 AM

Aye, another reason I'd love to see more processing power thrown at these boxes. Then they can be sloppy in their code all day long, and one won't have to sit for loooong seconds waiting for DVR response.

I too would like to see native on change channels faster. I just find it hard to believe it needs 3 or 4 secs more for a resolution change.
A.K.A VOS




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