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BUG REPORT: Bad Aspect Ratios....


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22 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 12:12 PM

I noticed someone mentioning on another thread that Advanced Tech has said that they have NOT heard many complaints about the SD Aspect Ratio problem so I figured I better speak up.

I have a Sony KP57WV600 16:9 Rear Projection HD Monitor hooked up via DVI to my 921. I have it set at 1080i and 16:9 for HD content. When the 921 is set at "Normal", HD is fine and fills the screen when a widescreen feed is present. When SD content is viewed it correctly shows only the content in the middle of the screen with vertical black bars. Trying to use the "STRETCH" function WAY overshoots the mark and extends the picture about 15% beyond the edge of my screen on each side. "ZOOM" Works a little better horizontally but chops off too much content from the vertical picture. As the DVI and 1080i feed disables my TV's stretch options (Only FULL is available) I cannot fill in the whole screen. I've used a workaround that seems to work OK as I change the setting from 16:9 to 4:3 #2 which makes SD more watchable, but then throws off the HD widescreen content by putting black horizontal bars into the picture. Please correct the "STRETCH" aspect ratio to better fill in the screen without bars and without truncating visual content.
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#2 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 12:34 PM

Yup, that sums it up pretty well, and is almost word for word from one of the bug reports that I've sent through the beta process. :)
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#3 OFFLINE   jsanders

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:11 PM

Was it mentioned that this works differently depending on what kind of source is being watched??

For instance, watching with grey bars on an OTA channel yields grey bars, then black bars, then a stretched picture in the middle. However, if I am watching CNBC, an SD satellite transmission, grey bars works fine. We have to be very explicit about the problems. It would be not so good if they fixed this for OTA, then it got messed up for SD Sat broadcasts.

CNBC is a very good channel to use as a guage for the stretch feature. On the 6000 receiver, stretch actually got slightly better when we got the super dish update, and you could see all of the ticker number at the end. Before the update, you could see the integer portion of the nasdaq and dow movement, but not the fractional part. On the 921, you can't see the numbers at all!

I suspect that stretch might stretch a little differently as well with OTA, and SD Sat. For instance, the incoming OTA is 480p, right?? The SD Sat is a compressed signal with less resolution. This would suggest that the scaling factor is going to be different to stretch to the same amount.

#4 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:18 PM

Yup, that sums it up pretty well, and is almost word for word from one of the bug reports that I've sent through the beta process. :)


It sounds like this is one that is farther down the "fix" list and I was hoping to bump it up.
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#5 OFFLINE   mcowher

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 01:55 PM

Please fix ZOOM mode so that if you are watching a "letterboxed" broadcast on an SD channel, like Enterprise, ER, West Wing on a 16:9 set, it will fit better on the screen without losing so much picture horizontally and vertically (especially vertically).

#6 OFFLINE   jsanders

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 02:04 PM

Please fix ZOOM mode so that if you are watching a "letterboxed" broadcast on an SD channel, like Enterprise, ER, West Wing on a 16:9 set, it will fit better on the screen without losing so much picture horizontally and vertically (especially vertically).


We are getting closer anyway. What kind of SD transmission are you talking about? From the satellite, or from a terrestrial antenna?

#7 OFFLINE   mcowher

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 02:17 PM

Satellite...

#8 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 04:19 PM

Here's one.... Why can't they make a CUSTOM aspect ratio option like my computer monitor has? It lets me adjust the horizontal and vertical to my taste. This would eliminate ALL of the complaints. Pardon my ignorance if there is some obvious technical limitation that prevents this being a viable option.
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#9 OFFLINE   Slordak

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 04:24 PM

I don't think a custom aspect ratio mode (i.e. a new feature) is anywhere near as high priority as fixing the existing display modes. Fixing the picture quality for 4:3 content, fixing the stretch/zoom modes, and making sure that the receiver doesn't randomly change aspect ratios would certainly be my top choices in terms of picture output fixes.

For example, say the 921 is tuned to a 4:3 SD channel (e.g. Food Network), watching in HD mode on a 16x9 HDTV in "Normal" (4:3 OAR) mode. Now turn the 921 off, wait a few moments, and turn it back on. The image appears, but is stretched! However, if one waits a second or two, the image reverts to the proper aspect ratio. Why doesn't it begin in the correct aspect ratio?

#10 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 23 January 2004 - 04:28 PM

I know it isn't a high priority. It just seems to be beyond their capability to find a way to make a 4:3 picture fit a 16:9 screen without vertical bars or making Lara Flynn Boyle look like Liz Taylor after a Fried Chicken binge.

The Wide Zoom feature on my Sony used to split the difference pretty well, but the ZOOM and Stretch modes do an awful job when the receiver is set to 16:9. Switch it to 4:3 #2 and it gets a LITTLE better, but it is a pain to constantly switch back and forth.
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#11 OFFLINE   DonLandis

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 03:12 PM

I have now successfully reproduced all your aspect ratio issues , However, only when I had my 921 improperly adjusted in the Display setup!


I have no problems with my system setup on image display when set up properly for my monitor. The geometry appears perfect in all modes. I prefer the 4x3 picture to be a centered 4x3 image and this lists as "NORMAL" on my title bar.

I use the star key on the remote to toggle these in various stretch/zoom modes if desired but while it looks like the 921 defaults to "stretch" which in a 16x9 monitor and 4x3 image can produce some strange distortion, If you use the wrong Display setup and maybe select 480-2 or 480-1 the image will really do some strange geometry in the * key selection of the various stretch and zoom settings as describbed by others.

It seems to me I have a perfectly normal display without any distortion in "NORMAL" mode as selected with the * key toggle. If I wish to fill my screen in a 4X3 program, I toggle the mode to "stretch" and it simply changes to the full width of the 16x9 screen JUST LIKE MY OTHER RECEIVERS DO. There is absolutely NO over scanning in this mode as describbed by Bob's 15%. However I can make it do that if I select the wrong display type. Stretch will produce a fatter image and never produce true circles but this is the tradeoff for "stretch" It does not lose any portion of my 4x3 image until I select "ZOOM"

Consequently, I don't understand what it is you people are complaining about. Help me understand, as I am seeing perfectly normal aspect ratio control and a quick change key to go through various selections to fill a 16x9 screen in 4x3 programming.
There is no menu I can find to set the stretch or normal or zoom. That is a remote * key toggle. I'm pretty sure everyone else knows this but just to be sure.

I will grant you that if the menu setup Display is incorrect for your monitor, The toggle stretch and zoom modes (* key) will appear crazy!

Defaulting this to stretch:
I think an arbitrary decision may have been made to default the mode to "stretch" for safety on those fragile plasmas but personally I would prefer this to be a user default selection in "NORMAL"


One more thing- You may want to verify your monitor is in the NORMAL non stretch modes too. Mine is default to this in DVI input but in Component and others I can add monitor stretch that counters of exxagerates the 921 settings.

#12 OFFLINE   Jerry G

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 03:22 PM

Don, see my response in the 1.45 thread.

#13 OFFLINE   DonLandis

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 04:02 PM

Got it Jerry, posted what I did to recreate it in the 145 thread.

#14 OFFLINE   DonLandis

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 04:11 PM

Got it Jerry, posted what I did to recreate it in the 145 thread.

I also found that toggling through the various zoom, stretch, and gray bars too fast caused my 921 to reboot! Not at first, but it first built channel 200 to a small image in the upper left corner for a few seconds. Then I tried to change channels up one and the 921 rebooted. This was my first reboot in 14 hours of playing! :(

I suppose this officially welcomes me to the 921 club!

#15 OFFLINE   Jerry G

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Posted 24 January 2004 - 06:57 PM

Got it Jerry, posted what I did to recreate it in the 145 thread.

I also found that toggling through the various zoom, stretch, and gray bars too fast caused my 921 to reboot! Not at first, but it first built channel 200 to a small image in the upper left corner for a few seconds. Then I tried to change channels up one and the 921 rebooted. This was my first reboot in 14 hours of playing! :(

I suppose this officially welcomes me to the 921 club!


Yup. Welcome to the club. I've had the reboot you just described. But it wasn't related to changing aspect modes. I was just going through the guide, and when I exited the picture was a small one occupying about 1/3 of the left side of the screen. When I changed channels, the reboot occurred. So I think there are a number of situations where the small image gets to the screen somehow. I reboot will follow as soon as you change channels. I saw a similar problem with the original 1.42 software.

#16 OFFLINE   Slordak

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 09:52 AM

DonLandis, there are a number of aspect ratio and display problems, so its difficult to believe that you are unable to reproduce any of them.

I always use my receiver in "NORMAL" (OAR) mode over DVI, at 1080i, with a 16x9 HDTV. On HD channels, this fills the screen, and on SD channels, this leaves black bars on the side. This works fine. However, the other modes seem to have problems, even though the TV type is correctly set to 16x9 in the setup menus.

In "STRETCH" mode, the receiver does some bizarre super-stretch that in some cases doesn't even make sense (why does stretch apply at all to a full-screen 16x9 HD image on a 16x9 HDTV?). In "ZOOM" mode, the receiver doesn't zoom properly. If one is watching an SD channel with 16x9 letterboxed content within the 4x3 window, zoom should make the image full screen; this is what it does when enabling the "ZOOM" on the television for this scenario (although of course this is disabled on the TV for a 1080i image). On the receiver, though, "ZOOM" doesn't do this; not sure what it's trying to do, but it's not zooming.

Lastly, it makes me nervous that Dish didn't even center the logo which appears when the receiver is booting up (the "Dish Network HD" logo). It's very obviously shifted to the left of center... It looks bad.

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 09:57 AM

Lastly, it makes me nervous that Dish didn't even center the logo which appears when the receiver is booting up (the "Dish Network HD" logo). It's very obviously shifted to the left of center... It looks bad.


On my Toshiba the 921 logo on bootup is in the center. I know my TV is ok as it has been ISF calibrated.

#18 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 25 January 2004 - 10:11 AM

Yes, when viewed as normal in 16:9 everything is as it should be. We are complaining about the stretch modes which chop off too much info when the receiver is set to 16:9 and you view it on a 16:9 TV. Ditto for the zoom. If you are watching on a 4:3 set you may not see the anomalies we do, I don't know....

I prefer having the image fill the screen, and th ecurrent setup does a poor job of accomplishing this. I've found the workaround as 4:3 #2 works well for SD content on my 16:9 set (I have no idea why). It is just a pain as I have to switch back and forth when going to true 16:9 HD content.
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#19 OFFLINE   Slordak

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 08:16 AM

Considering the whole point of the stretch and zoom features is to avoid having to go back into the setup menus for SD programming (and then lie about your screen width!), it would seem there is an urgent need to fix these.

Have other people seen this problem, which I shall dub the "anti-stretch" or the "shrink mode" (L1.45)? Use your 16:9 HDTV as you normally would, in HD mode (blue light on), 1080i/16:9, DVI or Component, set to "NORMAL" mode. Watch an SD channel and observe that the content is correctly shown in 4:3 OAR (black bars on the sides). Now press the SD/HD button and switch video inputs on your TV to S-Video/Composite; does the image now take up less space than it did before? I.e. Does it look like someone tried to smash the 4:3 image into even less space than it took previously? This is how it appears on my 16:9 set.

#20 OFFLINE   DonLandis

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Posted 26 January 2004 - 06:11 PM

"In "STRETCH" mode, the receiver does some bizarre super-stretch that in some cases doesn't even make sense"

Yes. I have reproduced this where SD programs in 4X3 are stretched to beyond the sides of the 16x9 screen. However, I have been able to do a setup where the stretch mode is properly stretched to just the edges without losing any of the image as well. This was done using a rather convoluted setup procedure but once done, it stayed that way for about a half hour while I channel surfed HD and SD channels. Then I decided to toggle through the * key modes and it went back to the "super stretch". I agree that something isn't right but I have been able to do a work around to at least see proper stretch mode on my screen. But the truth is that I prefer to watch with perfect AR geometry and never stretch and distort my picture that way. I don't have burn-in issues to worry about and when in 4x3 mode "NORMAL" my screen is actually a 4x3 screen. I have variable aspect ratio screen in my home theater!




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