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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Moving to new house LAN or DECA?


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21 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   jgmiller31

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:29 PM

I've got 3 DVR's and a receiver setup for MRV on my LAN. It's worked great since the beta program but now we're moving. The new house isn't wired for network and frankly the coax installation is pretty bad so I'm probably going to have to rewrite. I figure if I'm running coax I might as well run Cat5.

When I move the service I'm sure the installer will want to install DECA. My question is should I fight him or just go with it? I'm a LAN tech so maintaining the installation has never been a problem and won't be one but if there's not downside to DECA or upside to LAN then I might just go with the path of least resistance and let them do it.

Any thoughts?

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#2 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:41 PM

Coax networking, or DECA as you call it, is smooth and maintenance free. I understand that Ethernet is no problem for you but why even worry about it.
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#3 ONLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:04 PM

Any thoughts?

I've been solely DECA for years and there isn't any downside.
The receivers can check the networking in their system test so there's a plus for the status.
I moved a year or so back and since I needed coax for the receivers, there isn't any need for ethernet as I'm using WiFi for what it used to do.
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#4 OFFLINE   Rtm

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:51 AM

Upside is Cat5,5e,6 seems to be a little quicker when fast forwarding and such less Please Wait.... messages. But they're about the same

#5 ONLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:49 AM

Upside is Cat5,5e,6 seems to be a little quicker when fast forwarding and such less Please Wait.... messages. But they're about the same

Having gone from Cat5 to DECA, I didn't see this, so I do question "a little quicker". My FF seems just as quick, but I mostly use the 30skip and it's instantaneous.
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#6 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 08:52 AM

Go with Coax/DECA, take the traffic from the DVRs off your LAN.
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#7 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:21 AM

Upside is Cat5,5e,6 seems to be a little quicker when fast forwarding and such less Please Wait.... messages. But they're about the same


I have to disagree with this statement, in fact a properly set up coax network should give you better video transport, especially if the router is doing something else like streaming netflix.
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#8 OFFLINE   BAHitman

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:42 AM

My network is half and half... and there is no difference between shows streamed between DECA clients, between Ethernet clients, or from one to the other... I'm slowly moving to DECA...

I would say the easiest would be to let the installer put in the DECA, then you can save your ethernet cabling for other devices... such as bluray players, etc...

Edited by BAHitman, 28 November 2012 - 09:49 AM.
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#9 OFFLINE   lugnutathome

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 09:43 AM

If you are wiring do BOTH! But use Cat 5e or cat 6 for gigabit. Then use the coax for your Direct TV and your LAN for the BlueRay, PC, and various other network devices/appliances you may have or will have.

I run 8 DVRs, two HD receivers, plus an RVU device with 5 of the DVRS on my home LAN. All the others are on DECA. Still trying to find a balance to move all to DECA but I have line lengths out to nearly 200ft and some low signal issues. I am not normal (as most here would agree;) ).

The two network fabrics are bridged via a CCK and I cannot tell any difference between the two. I run traffic contained on one or the other as well as crossing between the two and see no operational differences.

BUT I am self supported. I cannot expect to call a CSR with a whole home issue and get help. By going all DECA you can be. Also what I have on my DECA cloud is as stable as that on my LAN. There is simply no reason not to use it in the overwhelming majority of homes.

Seriously if you are pulling wire anyway, put in both you won't be sorry.

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#10 OFFLINE   beer_geek

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:16 PM

If you are wiring do BOTH! But use Cat 5e or cat 6 for gigabit. Then use the coax for your Direct TV and your LAN for the BlueRay, PC, and various other network devices/appliances you may have or will have.

I run 8 DVRs, two HD receivers, plus an RVU device with 5 of the DVRS on my home LAN. All the others are on DECA. Still trying to find a balance to move all to DECA but I have line lengths out to nearly 200ft and some low signal issues. I am not normal (as most here would agree;) ).

The two network fabrics are bridged via a CCK and I cannot tell any difference between the two. I run traffic contained on one or the other as well as crossing between the two and see no operational differences.

BUT I am self supported. I cannot expect to call a CSR with a whole home issue and get help. By going all DECA you can be. Also what I have on my DECA cloud is as stable as that on my LAN. There is simply no reason not to use it in the overwhelming majority of homes.

Seriously if you are pulling wire anyway, put in both you won't be sorry.

Don "normal? Not normal? Only my hairdresser knows for sure" Bolton


Can you go into further detail about your setup? i.e. the connections

Thanks,

#11 ONLINE   Drucifer

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:26 PM

Why the 'or'? A wise person would do both.

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#12 OFFLINE   carl6

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:52 PM

I agree if you are pulling wire to pull both. I also agree, go DECA for whole-home.

#13 OFFLINE   lugnutathome

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

Well it is a sordid tale to be sure. I have a home that is over 5,200sq ft of living space and it is largely linear. My dish is 150 line feet from my equipment workshop (I've built in some counter, and shelf surfacing in a large area under the house).

In this workshop I have a signal equalizer, signal booster, and a polarity locker between the dish and four two way splitters that feed my dual SWiM16s.

DECA traffic runs on one of the SWM outs from EACH of the dual 16s and is bridged using diplexers (as outlined in the "When One SWiM Isn't Enough thread above in this forum). The DECA side outputs go into a 2 way splitter that goes into a CCK which then feeds via a Cat6 line to a 14 port gigabit Netgear "metal" gigabit switch.

Each SWM out port has a line connecting to a 4 way splitter for room distribution four of which had DVRs prior and so have two service lines available. On the DECA cloud I run 2 H25s, 1 HR34, 1 HR22, 1 HR23, and an RVU client.

I should point out that this workshop "head end" as I call it is the central point for my home LAN, terrestrial service network, Sat service, Internet connection, and security system. Its all together in one place and was done through a local low voltage specialist. Each room has a wall plate with the proper connections for Terrestrial, one or two sat lines, and a single Ethernet port.

I took over the management of this infrastructure and created the workshop once I obtained the SWiM equipment (I started back in 05 when a single line would carry terrestrial and sat signal). I started with dual SWiM8s and it has evolved over time to the dual 16s.

Seven of the service areas have 8 port (again Netgear "metal" series) desktop Ethernet switches to facilitate computers, printers, network TVs, network AVRs, BlueRay players, etc, and the 5 DVRs that are not (yet) served via DECA. This includes 3 HR24s, 1 HR22 and 1 HR20-700.

Also in the workshop is of course the router. An Asus RT-N66U dual band wireless n router and I've added wireless access points at both ends of the home. I cannot say enough good things about this router though for most consumers its 180 dollar price tag may rule it out. One of my network admins here at work clued me into it.

Anyhow that's the rough sketch. The workshop is such that I can move room service lines between SWiM outs rapidly, and can loop in or out of DECA for equipment in the core service areas. Unfortunately the longer runs so far have resulted in too much signal loss but I am working on balancing loads across the outputs to see if it can be pulled off.

Don "Photo included" Bolton

Can you go into further detail about your setup? i.e. the connections

Thanks,


Edited by lugnutathome, 28 November 2012 - 05:04 PM.

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#14 OFFLINE   meballard

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

I have to disagree with this statement, in fact a properly set up coax network should give you better video transport, especially if the router is doing something else like streaming netflix.

A properly setup ethernet network will always outperform the coax network.

How busy the router is will have no bearing on performance for the ethernet network for local connections, such as DVR-DVR, as that traffic would be entirely contained by the switches on the network (and in a lot of installations like my home network, DVR-DVR traffic never even reaches the router, as I only use the switch in my router to connect to my main switch at home).

That said, there is benefit to keeping it separated to the coax network in that it is easier to maintain supported by DirecTV, but that is not inherent to the technology itself.

#15 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:56 PM

A properly setup ethernet network will always outperform the coax network.

How busy the router is will have no bearing on performance for the ethernet network for local connections, such as DVR-DVR, as that traffic would be entirely contained by the switches on the network (and in a lot of installations like my home network, DVR-DVR traffic never even reaches the router, as I only use the switch in my router to connect to my main switch at home).

That said, there is benefit to keeping it separated to the coax network in that it is easier to maintain supported by DirecTV, but that is not inherent to the technology itself.


In what way do you believe "a properly setup ethernet network will always outperform the coax network?"
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#16 OFFLINE   meballard

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:08 PM

In what way do you believe "a properly setup ethernet network will always outperform the coax network?"

Ethernet, when setup properly, has dramatically more bandwidth available to it, and is a mature, stable technology.

For reference, there is a thread comparing them here in terms of performance:
http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=169982

Note that I'm not saying that going Ethernet is better on a practical basis for most people, just commenting on the technology itself.

#17 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:18 PM

Ethernet, when setup properly, has dramatically more bandwidth available to it, and is a mature, stable technology.

For reference, there is a thread comparing them here in terms of performance:
http://www.dbstalk.c...ad.php?t=169982

Note that I'm not saying that going Ethernet is better on a practical basis for most people, just commenting on the technology itself.


That thread is three years old!
The technology of DECA has been rock solid for me, and I'd classify it as mature and stable, though not around as long as ethernet. I am aware that my one point of data (plus the related experiences of many others here) isn't a scientific test.

The size of any pipeline is irrelevant as long as the existing one is big enough to pass along what it needs to without interruption.

I'd further posit that DECA for whole home is much better for "most people".
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#18 ONLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:18 PM

In what way do you believe "a properly setup ethernet network will always outperform the coax network?"

Sometimes it just isn't worth pushing back, and it doesn't matter what you use.
MoCa by design has parts that optimize it over ethernet, for the use that it's planned for.

Ethernet can "only be as good", but not "better" than MoCa, but ethernet can be "better" for what it was designed for.

I've had people that know networking much better than I explain the upside of MoCa over ethernet for video streaming, but there are still those holding on to their ethernet and won't let it go until it's pried out of their cold dead hands. :lol:
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#19 OFFLINE   meballard

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 12:55 AM

That thread is three years old!

So, the technology in use hasn't changed, so the thread is still valid.

I'd further posit that DECA for whole home is much better for "most people".

I never said it wasn't, I never said Ethernet is better for the purpose of video streaming between DirecTV boxes, nor is MoCA/DECA inherently better, but I do make reference that it may be better for a lot of people.

I've had people that know networking much better than I explain the upside of MoCa over ethernet for video streaming, but there are still those holding on to their ethernet and won't let it go until it's pried out of their cold dead hands.

They're probably referring to the prioritization features built into MoCA/DECA, and if you get anywhere to approaching the capacity of a network, that is important, mind you Ethernet can support that as well, but it is harder to configure (and most home network don't support it).

Mind you from the flip side, if the network is setup properly with more than enough bandwidth (which a Gigabit network would be true for almost all home setups), prioritization no longer has an effect.

Just to make it clear one more time, I'm not saying Ethernet is better for most people in practice, just making some comments on the base technology.

#20 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

A "properly configured" DECA network has 100mb/sec of full duplex bandwidth. A high definition data stream from a DVR to a viewing location will use a maximum of 18mb/sec (and a MPEG-4 satellite stream will use well under 10). So, unless you exceed 5 simultaneous streams of full bandwidth MPEG-2 HD you will never approach the bandwidth limits of a DECA network. Of course, if you are only recording MPEG-4, you can get up to at least 10 simultaneous streams before you start approach the limit.

There may or may not be advantages to "traditional" 100mbit Ethernet versus DECA, but bandwidth is not one of them.

Plus, given the number of people I have helped with simple things like setting SSIDs, enabling wireless security or setting static IPs the greatest virtue of DECA is its ease of use.

Edited by Diana C, 29 November 2012 - 07:00 AM.

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#21 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:04 AM

So, the technology in use hasn't changed, so the thread is still valid.I never said it wasn't, I never said Ethernet is better for the purpose of video streaming between DirecTV boxes, nor is MoCA/DECA inherently better, but I do make reference that it may be better for a lot of people.They're probably referring to the prioritization features built into MoCA/DECA, and if you get anywhere to approaching the capacity of a network, that is important, mind you Ethernet can support that as well, but it is harder to configure (and most home network don't support it).

Mind you from the flip side, if the network is setup properly with more than enough bandwidth (which a Gigabit network would be true for almost all home setups), prioritization no longer has an effect.

Just to make it clear one more time, I'm not saying Ethernet is better for most people in practice, just making some comments on the base technology.


Well, you had me fooled when you stated:

A properly setup ethernet network will always outperform the coax network.


It's clear you're versatile with ethernet, as are a lot of folk in the forum. But for the average user, and even those with a lot of networking experience, DECA has a lot of advantages.
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#22 OFFLINE   i3rown

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 09:57 PM

The system is designed to transport the video across the coax without issue .. End of story .. If I was doing your movers and you demanded the use of Ethernet .. I wouldn't do the movers because of the risk of sin




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