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211 HD quality if poor


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#1 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 07:16 PM

Hi
I upgraded from a Dish 311 to VIP211 and upgraded the wiring and dish to HD. I did not have a an HD TV at the time but now do.
I am very disappointed in the quality of HD Tv,

I have made sure the box was set to 1080i, I have tried both HDMI cable and component and see similar defects.
I am set to HD stations not SD. I have tested Bluray and the TVs display sharp images.
I have tried 4 different brands of 32" 1080p and 720p TVs
Quantum, Sceptre, Vizio,RCA


All that say 1080i look blury, or pixelated close up faces look blochy.graphicy
I am disappointed in what they call HD.
Is this the the best Dish gets? I understand different channels broadcast different qualities but I do not know how any one can say this is HD quality.
I also see interlace lines on various feeds and commercials that appear if something moves.

If you knwo how to fix this or what to have Dish do about it, let me know. I wil tell you I thnk my images looked shaper on my old 480 tv.
Any help is appreciated

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#2 OFFLINE   Mike.H_DISHNetwork

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 08:22 AM

Hi
I upgraded from a Dish 311 to VIP211 and upgraded the wiring and dish to HD. I did not have a an HD TV at the time but now do.
I am very disappointed in the quality of HD Tv,

I have made sure the box was set to 1080i, I have tried both HDMI cable and component and see similar defects.
I am set to HD stations not SD. I have tested Bluray and the TVs display sharp images.
I have tried 4 different brands of 32" 1080p and 720p TVs
Quantum, Sceptre, Vizio,RCA


All that say 1080i look blury, or pixelated close up faces look blochy.graphicy
I am disappointed in what they call HD.
Is this the the best Dish gets? I understand different channels broadcast different qualities but I do not know how any one can say this is HD quality.
I also see interlace lines on various feeds and commercials that appear if something moves.

If you knwo how to fix this or what to have Dish do about it, let me know. I wil tell you I thnk my images looked shaper on my old 480 tv.
Any help is appreciated


Mstar, with the VIP211 receiver set at 1080i and the aspect ratio set at 16x9. Since you’re getting a good picture with the Blu-ray player use that HDMI cable for the receiver to see if you get a better picture. If you have any further questions please PM me.

#3 OFFLINE   VDP07

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 10:10 AM

Make sure, using the "format" button on your remote, that your HD channels are not stretched or zoomed.

#4 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 11:44 AM

Yes all 3 TVs are on Normal
So Dish installer was here today and he brought a 211K where as the other s are 211s, I notice a SMALL increase in clarity.

But by now means do I feel Dish HD is clear ,sharp and superior to SD. Colors pop more , graphics and non moving images are fine but I see a blur to faces and then whe it comes to smaller faces say in a show like THE VIEW, the faces can be pixelated or blotchy.

As I said, the 211K is a little better so having Dish swap the 211s which I only had running 1 month. The tech went into the menu and said my signal is great .
He even added stuff the other installer did not. He changed the barrels in the wall connections to the Hi frequency ones put a ground block in. Not that it improved quality.

I do not know what the quality should be from Dish, Maybe I should never have thought it would be sharp like blu ray but I thought it would have to be better than this. The further away you are I think it is only an illusion of qualit due to the brighter colors, and higher contrast Stand 3 feat and if you ask me my laptop looks clearer.

It would be one thing if it was the pixelation but another to have that and a slight blur to the image. I wish I had someone else with DISH HD so I could go and see if theirs is the same or not. Then I might know if there is something still wrong with the install or if that is the best it can get.

#5 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 01:33 PM

How close do you sit to your TV?

If I sit within a foot of my 60" TV, the HD looks horrible... as it should at that range. IF I walk back 6-8 feet I reach the sweet spot where the image is still large but very sharp.

Blu-rays are going to be potentially better for most things, assuming high-quality encoding on the Blu-rays and good source material... but I'm quite happy with my Dish HD when viewed from the reasonable viewing distance.

Since you said "close up faces look blurry" it makes me think perhaps you are too close to the screen.

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#6 OFFLINE   Jim5506

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 03:29 PM

I have 3 211s and they all have very sharp excellent HD pictures.

Change the HD setting back to 480p then reboot the receiver and then change it back to 1080i, I have heard of instances where the chip was "stuck" in the default 480p setting even when it was changed and that sometimes bumps it out of 480p.

My 211s are almost as good a picture as my 722k, a little bit behind my Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, there has got to be something wrong somewhere.

How large is your display and how close are you to it?

Even at close range 2-3 ft on my Sony projector @ 7 ft diag on the wall, the picture is always as clear as could be expected and from 10 ft away it's like watching through a window.

Are you using the same input on the TV for the Blu-Ray as you do for the 211 HDMI? Some TVs have discrete input settings.

Did the tech check the signal levels to make sure you weren't on the lower range of signal strength? There should be no blockiness or blotchiness on faces.

1080i WILL show interlace lines, but you have to really look closely to see them, just because it is interlaced, not progressive.

Edited by Jim5506, 06 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.

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#7 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 07:58 PM

Thanks for the suggestions.
These are 32" Tvs so one/
The 480 to 1080 technique did not change anything but worth a try.

Yes I tried the HDMI in all the ports to be sure it was not a HDMI issue and even component.
The tech did say my signal is very good.
He could see what I was saying but it seemed to bother him less than me.

Yes I am looking at the tv within 2 feet and can see it.
Maybe some can exlain WHY it would not look sharp up close?

So then HD is an illusion only obtained by high contrast, bright colors and distance? But then why does a blu ray look better than the Dish service at the same distance?

And why would the tech, who was standing a l couple feet back from me, say he saw it but that there was nothing he could suggest?

#8 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 12:20 AM

If you are sitting 2 feet from the screen, almost anything is going to have flaws.

The Blu-rays will look better because they have higher bitrates and less compression than the Dish OR OTA broadcasts.

But sitting 2 feet from the screen you should be able to see some flaws in some Blu-rays as well on a 32" screen.

Remember, the highest resolution we are talking here is 1920x1080... I sit about 1.5-2 ft. from my 24" computer monitor but if I had a 32" computer monitor I would need to back up at least another foot or two so as not to see blockiness even with high-quality pictures.

I saw a calculation somewhere that recommends a viewing distance of roughly 1.5-2x the diagonal measure of your HDTV.

So... a 32" HDTV would be roughly 48-64" or 4-6 ft away.

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#9 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:13 AM

Hi
I should have pointed out even at 4-6 feet I can see defects. That is why stood closer to determine what I was seeing.

I just do not know how to describe it and not sure why the tech did not think there was anything to do about it.

I also wonder if the 211 211K does worse than 722? If so why?

Is it possible that the new TVs I picked up just are not high enough quality in how they filter and process?

What channel is known to have the best quality that I can check if it is just hte broadcasts. I see the issue very evident on all moring stations 2-13
But even CNN has a slight blur and some pixelation during movement.

It has been very hard to tell what the quality of my service/hook up is without knowing what each station and each commerical is really broadcasting at.
And no matter if you have a 720p TV, if you hit the info button it will say 1080i
Some are saying thier signal is SHARP near blue ray. I am saying that day time tv like Doctor OZ, the morning shows and night time news are probably the worst viewing.

I think some are fooled since if you get a graphic up it has a sharpter look but look at the faces and movement and I see all sorts of problems and a blur that was not there on the old 480p tv even when flipping between SD HD which had no change except format.
So I am not seeing why I upgraded to HD if this is as good as it gets

BTW I should point out I am on the Easter Arc so wonder if other areas could be a reason and would be good to hear from Easter Arc folks in North NJ.

#10 OFFLINE   altidude

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:33 PM

Could it be a noise reduction feature in your TV? I've played around with noise reduction on my TV and I didn't like the result so I turned it off. I saw a lot of what you're describing above with noise reduction on.

My 211k looks great in 1080i HD on a Vizio 32 inch in normal mode, no noise reduction applied.

In my specific case the 211k equipped TV looks much better than the 722k equipped TV but it's the TV, not the receiver, making the difference so it's not really a good comparison. I still have an older 52" RPTV on the 722k setup and the 211k is a newer 32" LCD TV.

#11 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

Thanks for the input.
I turned off all noise and mpeg noise reduction and played with itand did not really see any difference when on or off on all the TVs.
This is frustrating. Would photos, if I cna get them help?

#12 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:10 PM

Photos might help... at least they would help if they are accurate for us to see if what you are seeing is what we normally see.

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#13 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 03:47 PM

I have 3 211s and they all have very sharp excellent HD pictures.

Change the HD setting back to 480p then reboot the receiver and then change it back to 1080i, I have heard of instances where the chip was "stuck" in the default 480p setting even when it was changed and that sometimes bumps it out of 480p.

My 211s are almost as good a picture as my 722k, a little bit behind my Blu-ray and HD-DVD players, there has got to be something wrong somewhere.

How large is your display and how close are you to it?

Even at close range 2-3 ft on my Sony projector @ 7 ft diag on the wall, the picture is always as clear as could be expected and from 10 ft away it's like watching through a window.

Are you using the same input on the TV for the Blu-Ray as you do for the 211 HDMI? Some TVs have discrete input settings.

Did the tech check the signal levels to make sure you weren't on the lower range of signal strength? There should be no blockiness or blotchiness on faces.

1080i WILL show interlace lines, but you have to really look closely to see them, just because it is interlaced, not progressive.


Signal strength can cause "blotchy" faces? Interesting. I notice that every so often on SD broadcasts. What do you consider decent signal strength? [ so I have something to go by] I'm on west arc.

thanks

#14 OFFLINE   gtal98

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:01 PM

I see the issue very evident on all moring stations 2-13
But even CNN has a slight blur and some pixelation during movement


For the sake of comparisons only use the nationally broadcast channels (105 and higher). Everyone has different local channels which can all output different levels of quality. The methods Dish uses to uplink the local channels in each market varies with different results as well.

What brand of TV do you have? I am inclined to think it's something in your TV settings. Have you tried changing the output resolution to 720p? Maybe your TV doesn't do well with interlaced signals? (Blu-ray would be 1080p)

#15 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:09 PM

Just to clarify-
When you switch the receiver to 480, do a hard reset - pull the plug. After about 2 minutes plug it back in and when it is ready switch back to 1080I.

When formatting was mentioned I think you responded that the TV was formatted correctly. What was meant, is the Dish receiver formatted correctly....

Hope you find what is wrong, because unless you sit way too close as with virtually any carrier, the picture should look good.
Signal strength plays no role in clarity for a digital receiver, other than it could freeze or briefly freeze the picture.

#16 OFFLINE   Rduce

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:11 AM

I have a 211K connected to a 32" LG and the picture is amazing! Perhaps the problem is with the low end sets you are trying to use it with??

#17 OFFLINE   davejacobson

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 12:20 PM

Pixelation during fast motion? Sounds like a cheap tv to me that cant keep up.Don't compare shows on the networks especially during the day.A lot of those show are still in SD even if you are on a HD channel.Just because it says HD in the corner doesn't mean the show is HD.SD on some LCD sets look bad. The pic can be blurry and cartoon like in SD. Test pix on the national news channels, while their not always 100% HD on all the storys the live news broadcasters are.
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#18 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:18 PM

This is frustrating. Dish should not list it as an HD station if it is not HD quality. PERIOD! All the morining talk shows are low quality. During wide shots you can really see it. close up maybe 10 feet bac you think it is sharp but move in a little and see it is blurry. I do a little photography so know what is in focus and what is not.

I do not feel it is acceptable to say not to compare day time network TV since that is then wasting half my subscription for crap that looks much better in 480 on a 480 tv. Why did I bother upgrading?

Is it the quality of the TVs? Well if I only had ONE TV that is one thing but to see it on ALL 4 tvs tried, one has to wonder.

The fact it IS on network news and CNN as well. The wider the shot the more degraded the faces. So much for HD quality.

Over the weekend I thought the quality magicially improved. Now download a calibration Blu ray (think it was AVS) so thought that helped. I did the remaining 3 TVs I am testing.
Even CBS Sunday morning had a better quality so thought maybe Dish flipped a switch or the calibration helped hide the errors
. But come Monday, the morning shows all suffer in quality. Oh graphics overlayed looked sharp and maybe why some are being tricked to think the image is sharp. But look at the faces please or the motions.

Now I understand that the Sceptre and the Quantum are lower quality but they had hundreds of positive reviews.
is RCA and Vizio considered low end? The RCA does do a tad better but the defects are still there. Someone mentioned LG but not the model and assume not all LG are made equal, right?

The Vizio was a 720p LED E series and $100 more and it had the same problems as well as terrible viewing angles.

If you have recommendations on what I can find at Walmart in up to a 42" to try . so I can return it. (my walmart has to open every box anyway and send it back to the manufacturer , even if you did not open it and had all seals, since someone returned rocks last year. So I have no issue TESTING a TV) 32" is what I need to fit in my cabinet .

I really did not think I needed 120 hz to watch the Today show but it seems some are thinking that is what is needed.

Thanks for the continued help.

#19 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

Oh as for the photos I tried a few ways but the digital camera picks up the screen information for lack of a better way to describe it. Either lines or boxes. do not know if you call that a filter but there is some overlay that wil show up when the camera shoots the screen, even with the image frozen with the freeze button.

So I do not know how to shoot an LCD screen to show you as the eye sees it.
Any advice on that is appreciated.

I have two 211k coming they say today to swap for the 211. The one I had I had to give to my tenant to use so was not using that.

It would be very disappointing to find that all the network shows are going to suffer. Didnt Dish used to provide a non local feed for shows on a higher channel number? I cant not find them if there are there and different. If they are just copies of the local feeds than are you saying NY feeds are garbage during the day and evening news?

Any Northern NJ folks out there willing to let me see your feed or test a TV?

#20 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 05:45 PM

Without seeing what you are talking about it is going to be very difficult to diagnose much further. It's hard to say if you have a problem, or poor HDTVs (are you sure they are HDTVs by the way? There are some EDTVs that were sold in the smaller screen sizes).

Seeing what you are seeing might trigger someone to suggest something we haven't yet. Short of that, if your TVs and receiver are setup correctly and the cables are good and you are sitting at least a few feet away... then it seems like all should be well.

You could make sure you are in "Normal" and not a zoomed mode. You might need to check your TV settings as well as the "*" mode button on the Dish remote to make sure all your devices are not doing any kind of zooming.

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#21 OFFLINE   Rduce

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

This is frustrating. Dish should not list it as an HD station if it is not HD quality. PERIOD! All the morining talk shows are low quality. During wide shots you can really see it. close up maybe 10 feet bac you think it is sharp but move in a little and see it is blurry. I do a little photography so know what is in focus and what is not.

I do not feel it is acceptable to say not to compare day time network TV since that is then wasting half my subscription for crap that looks much better in 480 on a 480 tv. Why did I bother upgrading?

Is it the quality of the TVs? Well if I only had ONE TV that is one thing but to see it on ALL 4 tvs tried, one has to wonder.

The fact it IS on network news and CNN as well. The wider the shot the more degraded the faces. So much for HD quality.

Over the weekend I thought the quality magicially improved. Now download a calibration Blu ray (think it was AVS) so thought that helped. I did the remaining 3 TVs I am testing.
Even CBS Sunday morning had a better quality so thought maybe Dish flipped a switch or the calibration helped hide the errors
. But come Monday, the morning shows all suffer in quality. Oh graphics overlayed looked sharp and maybe why some are being tricked to think the image is sharp. But look at the faces please or the motions.

Now I understand that the Sceptre and the Quantum are lower quality but they had hundreds of positive reviews.
is RCA and Vizio considered low end? The RCA does do a tad better but the defects are still there. Someone mentioned LG but not the model and assume not all LG are made equal, right?

The Vizio was a 720p LED E series and $100 more and it had the same problems as well as terrible viewing angles.

If you have recommendations on what I can find at Walmart in up to a 42" to try . so I can return it. (my walmart has to open every box anyway and send it back to the manufacturer , even if you did not open it and had all seals, since someone returned rocks last year. So I have no issue TESTING a TV) 32" is what I need to fit in my cabinet .

I really did not think I needed 120 hz to watch the Today show but it seems some are thinking that is what is needed.

Thanks for the continued help.


Sceptre LCD TVs are typically amongst the lowest priced on the market for models of comparable size and features, which translates to low end. Quantum is about the same.

Vizio is in the same general league, however, has stepped up their quality control as of late and has positioned themselves to be the number 1 seller of LCD televisions in the United States. Yet, their products are still considered substandard against the likes of Sony, Samsung and Panasonic.

The RCA brand is not your grandfathers RCA. It is now simply a brand name owned by Thomson, a French company that owns the brand name and the televisions are made by a company called ON under license. Once again, they specialize in low priced units.

A good rule of thumb is if it is sold at Wal-Mart it is going to be low end. Even brand name sets, for the most part, at Wal-Mart are made for a specific price point that Wal-Mart is looking for. This means the manufacturer has made some sort of sacrifice in the production of said item.

#22 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:50 AM

Well that is all fine and well to trash all 4 TVs that all display Dish signal equal, but may I recommend a follow up on what brands are then to go with and WHY?
My concern is that no matter what brand I pick, some techy will come along and post "Oh that model is the lowest quality of there brand." So to avoid this I guess I need a list of TVs I can trust will not get trashed automatically. Walmart also sells LG, Sony, and other "name brands" You can not tell me they are all junk just because Walmart carries them. I understand many times models made for walmart can use lower end parts but if the models are sold in other stores how likely it it that just becuase Walmart has it, it is junk?

Please suggest brands with 32" models that are KNOWN high quality so I can rule in or out the TV once and for all. Just to say the 4 I have tested are junk, when hundreds review the picture quality as good-great, is not valid without suggesting models that are better.

And I am still having trouble with the fact Blu rays look good on all 4 so how can it be the TVs. That was the first test I thought, test a blu ray not the dish signal to demonstrate a LCD quality or lack there of. IF a movie doe snot do it but The Daily Show does show issues, it is really the Tv's fault?

Thanks.

Edited by mstar, 11 December 2012 - 08:58 AM.


#23 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

Without being able to see what you are seeing, honestly, I don't know what else to suggest that hasn't already been suggested.

My Dish HD looks fine. Yes, some channels and content are better than other... and my Blu-rays are generally superior... but I don't have the complaints you have... so outside of the general suggestions, we would need to see what you are seeing in order to determine if the limitation is your HDTVs or something else.

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#24 OFFLINE   Rduce

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

Well that is all fine and well to trash all 4 TVs that all display Dish signal equal, but may I recommend a follow up on what brands are then to go with and WHY?
My concern is that no matter what brand I pick, some techy will come along and post "Oh that model is the lowest quality of there brand." So to avoid this I guess I need a list of TVs I can trust will not get trashed automatically. Walmart also sells LG, Sony, and other "name brands" You can not tell me they are all junk just because Walmart carries them. I understand many times models made for walmart can use lower end parts but if the models are sold in other stores how likely it it that just becuase Walmart has it, it is junk?

Please suggest brands with 32" models that are KNOWN high quality so I can rule in or out the TV once and for all. Just to say the 4 I have tested are junk, when hundreds review the picture quality as good-great, is not valid without suggesting models that are better.

And I am still having trouble with the fact Blu rays look good on all 4 so how can it be the TVs. That was the first test I thought, test a blu ray not the dish signal to demonstrate a LCD quality or lack there of. IF a movie doe snot do it but The Daily Show does show issues, it is really the Tv's fault?

Thanks.



Well, as I have said, I have my 211K hooked to a 14 month old 32" LG LE5400 1080i set in my bedroom and the picture is stunning. Prior to that I had it hooked to an 4 year old 22" Samsung 720P, (got it at a local discount store that I have warned you about ) sorry I cannot recall the model and it was just okay. I got rid of the bedroom set after I brought the 211K out and hooked it to my 55" Sony living room set and saw that the picture on that set was equally stunning.

This is why I feel confident that a marginally built set is not going to look as good. I spent a great deal of time to research television sets a year ago before I replaced my bedroom set. The Internet is a wondrous thing and I probably spent way too much time looking at options and sets, reading about where LCD screens are made and by whom. Which ones were troublesome, best picture quality and such!

I then went to Best Buy and played with all the features and once I figured out which one was going to be the one, I found it online and ordered it. I would NEVER buy a television from Wal-Mart and expect it to stand up to my finicky expectations.

#25 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

I bought a 32" lcd panasonic from Kmart for the bedroom and the picture is quite good for a lcd. [ 1080p]

It's on tv2 on a 222k receiver. [ this is SD only, by the way]

Could be your tv.

I transitioned from a 480p sony crt to a 1080p plasma. It took some getting use to. I too thought the 480p had no issues [ it didn't] didn't matter where you sat. It eventually died, and believe me I was convinced anything else wouldn't be as good. Wrong.

When I watched the world series [ Always HD] I was a convert.

If you are seeing motion blur on CNN, it realy sounds like your tv. How is your Tenant's picture by the way?

If you had access to a higher end tv to test, you could rule [ in or out] the cheap TV theory.
Don't be offended when low- end is mentioned, the forums have lots of people who are good with their Vizio's.:)




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