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Guest Message by DevFuse

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211 HD quality if poor


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54 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Rduce

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:56 PM

This is frustrating. Dish should not list it as an HD station if it is not HD quality. PERIOD! All the morining talk shows are low quality. During wide shots you can really see it. close up maybe 10 feet bac you think it is sharp but move in a little and see it is blurry. I do a little photography so know what is in focus and what is not.

I do not feel it is acceptable to say not to compare day time network TV since that is then wasting half my subscription for crap that looks much better in 480 on a 480 tv. Why did I bother upgrading?

Is it the quality of the TVs? Well if I only had ONE TV that is one thing but to see it on ALL 4 tvs tried, one has to wonder.

The fact it IS on network news and CNN as well. The wider the shot the more degraded the faces. So much for HD quality.

Over the weekend I thought the quality magicially improved. Now download a calibration Blu ray (think it was AVS) so thought that helped. I did the remaining 3 TVs I am testing.
Even CBS Sunday morning had a better quality so thought maybe Dish flipped a switch or the calibration helped hide the errors
. But come Monday, the morning shows all suffer in quality. Oh graphics overlayed looked sharp and maybe why some are being tricked to think the image is sharp. But look at the faces please or the motions.

Now I understand that the Sceptre and the Quantum are lower quality but they had hundreds of positive reviews.
is RCA and Vizio considered low end? The RCA does do a tad better but the defects are still there. Someone mentioned LG but not the model and assume not all LG are made equal, right?

The Vizio was a 720p LED E series and $100 more and it had the same problems as well as terrible viewing angles.

If you have recommendations on what I can find at Walmart in up to a 42" to try . so I can return it. (my walmart has to open every box anyway and send it back to the manufacturer , even if you did not open it and had all seals, since someone returned rocks last year. So I have no issue TESTING a TV) 32" is what I need to fit in my cabinet .

I really did not think I needed 120 hz to watch the Today show but it seems some are thinking that is what is needed.

Thanks for the continued help.


Sceptre LCD TVs are typically amongst the lowest priced on the market for models of comparable size and features, which translates to low end. Quantum is about the same.

Vizio is in the same general league, however, has stepped up their quality control as of late and has positioned themselves to be the number 1 seller of LCD televisions in the United States. Yet, their products are still considered substandard against the likes of Sony, Samsung and Panasonic.

The RCA brand is not your grandfathers RCA. It is now simply a brand name owned by Thomson, a French company that owns the brand name and the televisions are made by a company called ON under license. Once again, they specialize in low priced units.

A good rule of thumb is if it is sold at Wal-Mart it is going to be low end. Even brand name sets, for the most part, at Wal-Mart are made for a specific price point that Wal-Mart is looking for. This means the manufacturer has made some sort of sacrifice in the production of said item.

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#22 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 08:50 AM

Well that is all fine and well to trash all 4 TVs that all display Dish signal equal, but may I recommend a follow up on what brands are then to go with and WHY?
My concern is that no matter what brand I pick, some techy will come along and post "Oh that model is the lowest quality of there brand." So to avoid this I guess I need a list of TVs I can trust will not get trashed automatically. Walmart also sells LG, Sony, and other "name brands" You can not tell me they are all junk just because Walmart carries them. I understand many times models made for walmart can use lower end parts but if the models are sold in other stores how likely it it that just becuase Walmart has it, it is junk?

Please suggest brands with 32" models that are KNOWN high quality so I can rule in or out the TV once and for all. Just to say the 4 I have tested are junk, when hundreds review the picture quality as good-great, is not valid without suggesting models that are better.

And I am still having trouble with the fact Blu rays look good on all 4 so how can it be the TVs. That was the first test I thought, test a blu ray not the dish signal to demonstrate a LCD quality or lack there of. IF a movie doe snot do it but The Daily Show does show issues, it is really the Tv's fault?

Thanks.

Edited by mstar, 11 December 2012 - 08:58 AM.


#23 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 01:45 PM

Without being able to see what you are seeing, honestly, I don't know what else to suggest that hasn't already been suggested.

My Dish HD looks fine. Yes, some channels and content are better than other... and my Blu-rays are generally superior... but I don't have the complaints you have... so outside of the general suggestions, we would need to see what you are seeing in order to determine if the limitation is your HDTVs or something else.

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#24 OFFLINE   Rduce

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

Well that is all fine and well to trash all 4 TVs that all display Dish signal equal, but may I recommend a follow up on what brands are then to go with and WHY?
My concern is that no matter what brand I pick, some techy will come along and post "Oh that model is the lowest quality of there brand." So to avoid this I guess I need a list of TVs I can trust will not get trashed automatically. Walmart also sells LG, Sony, and other "name brands" You can not tell me they are all junk just because Walmart carries them. I understand many times models made for walmart can use lower end parts but if the models are sold in other stores how likely it it that just becuase Walmart has it, it is junk?

Please suggest brands with 32" models that are KNOWN high quality so I can rule in or out the TV once and for all. Just to say the 4 I have tested are junk, when hundreds review the picture quality as good-great, is not valid without suggesting models that are better.

And I am still having trouble with the fact Blu rays look good on all 4 so how can it be the TVs. That was the first test I thought, test a blu ray not the dish signal to demonstrate a LCD quality or lack there of. IF a movie doe snot do it but The Daily Show does show issues, it is really the Tv's fault?

Thanks.



Well, as I have said, I have my 211K hooked to a 14 month old 32" LG LE5400 1080i set in my bedroom and the picture is stunning. Prior to that I had it hooked to an 4 year old 22" Samsung 720P, (got it at a local discount store that I have warned you about ) sorry I cannot recall the model and it was just okay. I got rid of the bedroom set after I brought the 211K out and hooked it to my 55" Sony living room set and saw that the picture on that set was equally stunning.

This is why I feel confident that a marginally built set is not going to look as good. I spent a great deal of time to research television sets a year ago before I replaced my bedroom set. The Internet is a wondrous thing and I probably spent way too much time looking at options and sets, reading about where LCD screens are made and by whom. Which ones were troublesome, best picture quality and such!

I then went to Best Buy and played with all the features and once I figured out which one was going to be the one, I found it online and ordered it. I would NEVER buy a television from Wal-Mart and expect it to stand up to my finicky expectations.

#25 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

I bought a 32" lcd panasonic from Kmart for the bedroom and the picture is quite good for a lcd. [ 1080p]

It's on tv2 on a 222k receiver. [ this is SD only, by the way]

Could be your tv.

I transitioned from a 480p sony crt to a 1080p plasma. It took some getting use to. I too thought the 480p had no issues [ it didn't] didn't matter where you sat. It eventually died, and believe me I was convinced anything else wouldn't be as good. Wrong.

When I watched the world series [ Always HD] I was a convert.

If you are seeing motion blur on CNN, it realy sounds like your tv. How is your Tenant's picture by the way?

If you had access to a higher end tv to test, you could rule [ in or out] the cheap TV theory.
Don't be offended when low- end is mentioned, the forums have lots of people who are good with their Vizio's.:)

#26 OFFLINE   John79605

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:49 PM

Isn't 5710 Test the channel to tune to when HD picture quality is questioned? It seems to always be benchmark quality.

#27 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:10 AM

Thanks but see a problem arising.ONe says his Kmart Tvs work just fine and other says stay away from box store TVs

As for as shopping around, Well I did hta tfirst. Iw as in the famous Best Buy onlhy to be disappointed. First off there test feeds look horrible. They admit to only using 720p and that they have so many sets hooked up that their feeds do not show the best quality (at least at the BB was at.)

It seems on issue is he 32" size is not a focus of these companies and quality. Far to many claim this is "bed room size" Sadly not one room in my house would fit a giant 55" I am not 85 years old, can still see just fine on a 32", it is plenty big in my living room.

Also I would like more of you to state if you are on the Easter or Western Arc Since some are claiming it is the fault of the NY who is my local stations then so be it but I will not accept it until I hear for more eastern arc

BTW for all those praising the quality have you checked the stations and shows I keep mentioning. It would seem most here are men with day jobs who might not ever turn on the TV nor view it up close.

And again, can some explain to me WHY it is MY TVs (plaural) that are taking the blame when Blu rays perform well. Isnt the measure of the TV watching the TV in 1080p? If the defects are not there on a blu ray then why is it the TVs fault not the quality of the Dish signal?

Beleve me I would LOVE to show you photos. But as I said before, I tried taking photos and the digial camera picks up an overlay that then does not allow one to see the screen detail.
If anyone wants to suggest how to shoot the image as the eye sees it, please post.

Thanks again guys.

#28 OFFLINE   gtal98

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:55 AM

Thanks but see a problem arising.ONe says his Kmart Tvs work just fine and other says stay away from box store TVs


Where the TV comes from is not important they just resell what they buy from the manufacturer - just make sure research by specific model numbers, not brand and size.

And again, can some explain to me WHY it is MY TVs (plaural) that are taking the blame when Blu rays perform well. Isnt the measure of the TV watching the TV in 1080p? If the defects are not there on a blu ray then why is it the TVs fault not the quality of the Dish signal?


The reason we are all suggesting your TVs is because not a single one of us have a complaint about our picture quality. And the chances of you having 3 or 4 "bad" 211's all at one house are astronomical. So either you are the pickiest customer ever, or some common TV setting is incorrect.

Time to go back to basics and make sure we're not overlooking something stupid, so please forgive the following question: Are you actually subscribing to HD programming from Dish? Just adding HDTV's doesn't instantly give you HD - you still have to subscribe to it from through Dish. I would think you have it given you upgraded receivers, but it's the only other common thing I can think of. When you pull up the guide does it show "HD" next to the channel number for 105, 140, 200? Depending on how your guide is set you may see duplicates of each channel too - as in two lines both saying 105 - one has the "HD" logo, one does not. See 140 in the picture below:

Posted Image

Beyond this, I'm out of suggestions, it's hard to troubleshoot something visual over the internet. You may want to call Dish again, and request a manager come out and take a look. Your picture quality should not be poor, ours aren't.

#29 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:52 PM

Yes I have HD, understand I have had a tech come 3 times now for the HD up. First to install , second to add a box third to switch to the 211ks I paid $102 to Dish it up to HD to stay off contract so belive me, I know I have HD.

This time he was there during the day and DID see what I see but not sure why it is happening. THe 211ks do appear to do better.

I understand what you are saying about 2 boxes not being the issue but then you seem to miss my point that 4 different brands of TV also cant all be the problem either.Unless they are all using the same parts, I do not see how 4 brands can produce the same results and the the cause.

If I cna find a brand in my size you guys will sign off as being good, then at least I can try that and find out one way or the other.

So at his point, all I can say is the tech did see the defects, mostly in moving faces and a sleight out of focus look on higher channels like CNN.
As I said, I feel there was an improvement with the 211k butnto sure if that is just in my head. But I am not crazy, there is a defect and it is trouble shooting that is the problem. I do not live near allot of stores and that is also a problem in trouble shooting. AND Blu Ray does not show the defects in faces so then I am still thinking the TVs have less to do with it than what Dish is calling HD and what it really is.

#30 OFFLINE   Rduce

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 03:20 PM

Yes I have HD, understand I have had a tech come 3 times now for the HD up. First to install , second to add a box third to switch to the 211ks I paid $102 to Dish it up to HD to stay off contract so belive me, I know I have HD.

This time he was there during the day and DID see what I see but not sure why it is happening. THe 211ks do appear to do better.

I understand what you are saying about 2 boxes not being the issue but then you seem to miss my point that 4 different brands of TV also cant all be the problem either.Unless they are all using the same parts, I do not see how 4 brands can produce the same results and the the cause.

If I cna find a brand in my size you guys will sign off as being good, then at least I can try that and find out one way or the other.

So at his point, all I can say is the tech did see the defects, mostly in moving faces and a sleight out of focus look on higher channels like CNN.
As I said, I feel there was an improvement with the 211k butnto sure if that is just in my head. But I am not crazy, there is a defect and it is trouble shooting that is the problem. I do not live near allot of stores and that is also a problem in trouble shooting. AND Blu Ray does not show the defects in faces so then I am still thinking the TVs have less to do with it than what Dish is calling HD and what it really is.


Actually, you may find this hard to believe but there are only a handful of companies that produce LCD panels and most of the big name brands do not manufacture their own, Sony comes to mind. LG, Sharp and Panasonic from what I recall made their own and sell to others, at least a year and a half ago.

So, and believe me when I say because I found myself doing this, you begin searching for particular model numbers and sometimes serial numbers looking for the more desirable manufacturers panel.

I found myself in full tilt loco searching for the then most sought panel at the time, IPS made by Hitachi, as having the best color reproduction and viewing angles; there are even websites that will tell you how to determine if you have one of these panels in your television.

Apparently, at the time, you might not get the panel you wanted because the manufacture gets their panels from so many different places.

I did not mean to tell you not to shop at Wal-Mart, just do not buy a television set from them and expect it to be like getting one from the Magnolia section at Best Buy.

#31 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 09:53 AM

Thank you for any suggestion on TV "who really makes it" sites,
recommendations on 32" that are not going to get slammed if I say it does not work,

Thank you for any ways to take the photograph without the lines and patterns appearing on the photo. My eye can not see them but then they show up on the photo and mask the defects so I can not show you.
-------------------
If it is the day time shows, then this is not acceptable for Dish to call it HD. The Tech said pointing a dish a little different would not fix that. True? I thought dish placement was crucial. Signals strength is 57-62 on various HD channels. Yes Discovery and above 105 are better , depending on the age of the show but not perfect, just better STILL images on network shows do have a sharpness. But as soon as you see the faces they are blocky, graphic digitized and blurry. The wider the camera angle the worse it looks.

I have now picked up a Sony Bravia 720p BX33. I know it is on the lower end but it is all that is available without actual model suggestions.
And guess what, it actual is WORSE than some of the trashed no names.

Also network prime time shows also have issues. It is not just daytime shows.

Any suggestions how to get proof to you and maybe I am just getting untrained techs but I need to wrap this up soon am just not seeing it being the TVs but the quality of the DISH signal. (or what dish is getting and packaging as HD when i is not really)

I am not trying to be rude to anyone who has posted suggestions. I thank you greatly for all the input.

#32 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:41 AM

Mike from DISH that posts here. He set up a visit from a field manager to check the install. While he requested it, unfortunately, The original tech who installed the HD dish came out.
He said they saw the request for a field manager but ignored it. Since the original installer came out, he tried another HDMI cable and checked the on screen signal level

HE DID see the issue of pixelated faces but He called it "a tracking issue".

He felt the 211ks were better than the 211 in general, but had no idea what to do about the issue. He said it might be the TV since he had no other answer.

I suspect it is DISH and how they are compressing and decompressing the signal or at least how well it is not done in a 211K. They only way to know for certain is to try a different box. But the tech said he would have to activate a box via a work order to try that, Since maybe many of you are using a 722, I wonder if those are better or if people have not gone up close enough to see the actual defects.

On that point I would say it is wrong to ask me how close I sit since I was in Best buy with 720 feeds, right up a 1 foot away and did not see the same issues. Yes I see some of the digitized aspects but that is not the issue I have been trying to describe. Just know that I did not see such issues with the TVs in the store even up close which again, points back to the quality of the DISH NETWORK HD broadcasts or signal processing there of.


To finally put this TV issue to rest I have now put many miles on my car to try two NAME brands.

First was the LG 32CS560 which is the only model 1080p TV that LG sells in that size. Even after calibration with their on board tool and then Disney Wow blu ray, that set looked worse than the Quantum View Walmart brand!

So I drove back and picked up what I hope is the final proof it is not my TVs
Sumsung UN32ES6500F version TH01
TH01 should be an actual samsung panel from what I read. This tv is a $750 TV.

This is an LED 1080p, 3D, Smart TV 120hz processing speed. So if this is a tracking issue on the TV issue this should then make movement of faces talking clearer, right?

After calibration I can report the issues is still very visible.
IT is NOT the TVs as I suspected that many could not be the issue. Early on, there was a color and depths difference compared to the Quantum View but with some side by side tweaking (ran both on separate receivers side by side) Quntum view, an LCD , was brighter and I could come closer to the color richness of a calibrated samsung. Regardless, the pixalation in face movements is still very clear and as I said, do not see these flaws on a 720p feed in Best buy, EVEN UP CLOSE. ;)
Needless to say, the Samsung , while has some nice extras, is too expensive and is going back since it did not solve the problem.

So this brings me to the next step. How do I find out if it is the quality of the boxes ability to decompress the stream , the quality of how dish sends or just the quality of the shows?


I invite those with Dish to check out the shows I mentioned. move a little closer and let me know what you see. Sure, it may be hard to see at 7 feet away, but that does not mean there is an issue.

The reason I keep trying is that I am trying to be sure that I am not living with substandard HD if there is a way they can improve my quality, if others are not having the issue, than I want the Best DISH can provide. And it it comes that there is nothing they can do, I will consider looking to see what Direct TV puts out. I would like to find someone with DISH HD in my area and see their sets. I am in Northern NJ.

#33 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 02:08 PM

There is simply no way for any of us to tell what you are seeing without seeing what you are seeing.

None of us have the problem that you have OR it is part of what we expect to see when sitting close up to any HDTV setup. If I sit close enough, I find flaws in my Blu-rays too...

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#34 OFFLINE   Hunter844

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

There is simply no way for any of us to tell what you are seeing without seeing what you are seeing.

None of us have the problem that you have OR it is part of what we expect to see when sitting close up to any HDTV setup. If I sit close enough, I find flaws in my Blu-rays too...


I agree completely. Maybe Dish should offer to come out and remove their equipment and cancel the account...:)
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#35 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

Yes, some channels and content are better than other... and my Blu-rays are generally superior... but I don't have the complaints you have... so outside of the general suggestions, we would need to see what you are seeing in order to determine if the limitation is your HDTVs or something else.

More to the point, no consumer TV provider sends out anything approaching the quality of Blu-ray. Using it as a benchmark is not reasonable.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#36 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:00 PM

If you are going to have your face glued to the TV you're not going to be happy with any conventional provider (be it DBS, cable or terrestrial broadcast).

Trolling the electronics department at Target and Walmart gets you at most what you pay for. As for why cheap-ass TVs don't perform as well, they're not set up to do motion compensation and noise reduction like the better TVs are. They may have some, but it often isn't as effective as units that are built to higher standards. Because Blu-ray movies are (typically) relatively artifact free, they don't require much in the way of processing.

My recommendation would be to invite yourself to visit someone who has a different setup and give their pay TV provider the same critical evaluation. After getting slapped a few times for putting nose prints on their screens, you'll get the picture. ;)

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#37 OFFLINE   peano

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

I bet if the OP tried a good 42" plasma he would be pleased with the picture. Almost every 32" LCD I have seen is crap with the exception of a Panasonic.

#38 OFFLINE   mstar

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 11:18 PM

I am sorryif I offended some based on the tone of the comments.
all I am doing is reporting as much detail as possible.

Yes I agree, if I am going to get help here, you need to see it but am still hoping for instructions on how to show you. I have explained the issues with photogrpahs.

As for the comment about "trolling for tvs" I hope some do read my previous post that I picked up a $700 samsung son not sure why I am getting attacked by some?

I can only report what I see in the best way possible and again, apologize if my recounts are not as professional as you are used to.
It is not my fault Dish did nto send out a feild mananger as requested. I have now tried a higher end TV just so we can put this issue of TV quality to rest.

I would very much like to show you what I see but do not know how to do it.

As for pressing my nose up to the screen, I never said that, it is clearly visible from a few feet away. My point was to describe that at Best Buy I could not see the same defects on the same model TV on a lower quality feed the sales person told me was 720.

All I asked was people check out there day time 2-7 and the other shows mentioned to see if mabye this was missed since you might not be home or might stay far away. Telling me it is wrong to stand 2 or 3 feet away to look at what I notice from further away is like telling anyone to just squint and a bad picture will be acceptable :lol:

So please do provide suggestions on how to get you the the visuals you need.

Regardless, it sounds like there is nothing they can do otherwise so maybe this i all pointless. I am glad the tech saw the issues but sadened there would be no remedy one can think of.


As for a 42" plasma, first off I have a space issue and the best buy said they did not make them below 50" I am not saying they dont, but I would have to find someone who carries smaller plasma


BTW when I had the 311 box on the set with a standard 480 TV I never saw these problems. And I would occassionaly sit on the floor 4 feet from the tv while working on a project. When I "DISH'N UP" to get into the HD world, I ran now into these issues. I want to be clear I am not talking about minor little digitzing. Please Please Please do nto htink I am picking on minor things.
I have been a Dish subscriber since 2006 and always thought the quality was great in 480 on 480.
When they first installed the dish I did nto have the HD TV. I thought both SD and HD looked equal and that there was no reason to get a flat panel. Then sales started so I figured I would try what i wanted to spend. But then everyone wanted to blame the TVs so I spent 3x as much to see the same resutls so sorry, if a tv with a retail value of $800 does not clear it up even a little how can the TV be the cause?

Gentleman. I a not saying you are wrong. Maybe you have excellent picture. This gives me hope that there is a fix. What this is or what to try is what I do not know. I have 3 211K and they all do the same thing in each room on now on 6 different TVs two being from Best Buy at a higher price.


Would a switch do anything for me in way of amplifying the signal The nearest connection has about a run of 65-70 feet of cable and the furthest room 24 feet away from that.
The only cable that was not new was ones in the wall sockets but was in the tech said, it just was not their cable. He based his assement of the install on the fact that the signal strength was about 59-62 on various stations.
I would not be wasting my time if this was not a clear issue of quality.

Edited by mstar, 17 December 2012 - 11:25 PM.


#39 OFFLINE   satcrazy

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:05 AM

just curious.

please tell us what is your worst channel, then, what is your best channel?

Also, what does CNN look like to you? Please make sure you choose the HD channel, as Dish offers both sd and hd in the guide.

Since you know about calibration, your tv should have motion smoothing in the menu. Sometimes this helps.

If the channels you are unhappy with are locals [ abc,cbs,nbc] I speak from experience here, just because they say they are digital, doesn't mean they are fully broadcasting in HD. I can watch them either through Dish, or change the input on my tv and watch them thru an antenna I installed awhile back. If the picture is crappy on Dish, and I flip to antenna, it is just as crappy.
So, not Dish's fault. Like the old saying goes, garbage in, garbage out. My PBS on the other hand always has a super good picture.

I have to wonder why BB would not use a 1080 signal though, considering 720 sets are few and far between there. Makes little sense. I'd want the tv"s I was selling to look as good as possible.
One thing, 42" plasma's are also getting scarce, especially if you are looking for a particular model. That much is correct.

I know you are frustrated, but,really, you should [ as suggested by harsh] explore someone else's set up, and keep in mind it is not realistic to use blueray as a benchmark.

Good luck!

#40 OFFLINE   jacaz

jacaz

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 11:14 PM

What Harsh said about comparing Dish's signal to Blu Ray is correct no provider
broadcasts in 1080p.One thing to try is to set your 211 to 720p instead of 1080i.This might help but who knows or get an OTA antenna and compare the dish picture to that.Hope you find a solution to the problem.




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