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DIRECTV 4k Ultra HD Channel Anticipation


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#51 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:07 PM

...The 4K and 8K development timelines appear close enough that IMO there's a significant chance for 4K to be skipped by the broadcasters and media companies...


The one difference is that 4K, with some reasonable advances in compression technology, can fit into a single OTA broadcast channel. 8K OTA would require at least 2 broadcast channels' bandwidth, even with significant advances in compression. 8K will also require a new storage and distribution medium beyond the current capacity of Blu-Ray, or again, really significant compression advances.

While a lot of people will go out and buy new TVs just because the technology is there, most people replace TVs only when the old one breaks. Since MANY of the HDTVs in use today are no more than 5 years old (not to mention the ones that will be replaced in the next 2 or 3 years), and figuring a 10 to 15 year lifespan for HDTVs, I doubt you'll see much of an installed base for 4K or 8K content before 2020 or so.

I don't doubt for a minute that UDHTV is coming, but I think it will mostly be delivered non-linearly (i.e. not broadcast), and won't be really well established until well into the next decade.

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#52 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

The one difference is that 4K, with some reasonable advances in compression technology, can fit into a single OTA broadcast channel. 8K OTA would require at least 2 broadcast channels' bandwidth, even with significant advances in compression. 8K will also require a new storage and distribution medium beyond the current capacity of Blu-Ray, or again, really significant compression advances.


The FCC is preparing to take back Broadcast Spectrum and repack current OTA stations. As thus, 4K will not be able to fit on a single OTA channel after the FCC repacks it and sells the spectrum to Wireless providers so more people can watch Netflixs on an iphone or ipad while charging customers more money for higher data amounts.

#53 OFFLINE   unixguru

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that viewing distance is a huge factor here.

Chart: 1080P Does Matter says that 84" 4K benefit becomes noticeable at ~9'. Viewing Distance Chart says ~35'. One is for average vision (20/20!) and the other for eagle vision. Me thinks the eagle vision number is really optimistic.

Where does most the population fall on the vision scale? That's why they call it average :lol:

How many people have the option of sitting <10' from their screen and have the space/$ for 84"? Few. (Even if you think their number is low and pick 15' then 84" is still huge.)

We sit ~15' from our 65". Unless we win the lotto we won't be moving nor will we be spending >$5000. By the average chart we would need >100" for 4K to matter (even 1080 is overkill now but you don't see any large 720).

The only way 4K is going to happen in any volume is if it costs about the same as 1080. That's why we have a 1080 when a 720 would do.

Now if I was well healed I could afford a dedicated theater room with a screen 10' from my chair and a 84" 4K. But if I was that healed I wouldn't want to sit 10' from the screen in a small theater so an 84" isn't good enough. Nor is a 100". The only solution is 120"+ and that spells only one thing - projection. Same reason it works in a commercial theater.

If they drive 4K into smaller screens (where people can afford it) then the distance becomes even smaller. A more typical 55-60" needs a viewing distance under 6'!

This isn't the same as the Retina Display from Apple. That makes sense because the normal viewing distance is very close. The Apple 27" display also makes sense at 2560x1440 because the normal viewing distance is 2-3'.

I just don't see 4K being useful in average videophile homes for a very long time. Maybe in 20 years when the TV is a film that you unroll and stick to a wall and is 10'+. So I predict another thud just like 3D.

#54 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that viewing distance is a huge factor here.

Chart: 1080P Does Matter says that 84" 4K benefit becomes noticeable at ~9'.

Let us know when you find an actual home setup with that 7' diagonal screen (84") and people sitting only 9 feet away. Good luck.

The manufacturers we spoke with at the Consumer Electronics show presented 4K HDTVs at about the 2 X distance range, and with 4K content shown at two sites only...the viewing clarity from 4K content was definitively superior at 15 feet when compared with a 1080p side-by-side.

There are no hard and fast viewing RULES...there are only RECOMMENDATIONS. As an example...if you Google "recommended viewing distance"...you'll get 2.3 million hits. The most common is a recommendation of 2-2/12 times the screen size in distance when you view a screen over 46" in size. For the 84" HDTV...regardless of 1080p or 4K HDTV...you'd be looking at 14-21 feet of distance being "recommended", much different from the 9' number you referenced. The 2 ISF certified technicians I know have repeatedly told me firsthand that viewing distance varies by room size, screen size, lighting (possible ambient), screen type (front/rear projection, LED, LCD, Plasma) and viewer preferences - as much subjective stuff as any "science".

If they drive 4K into smaller screens (where people can afford it) then the distance becomes even smaller. A more typical 55-60" needs a viewing distance under 6'

Again, the 6' distance for a 60" diagonal screen is a mismatch recommendation. You are correct in terms of the primary benefit for 4K being in 55-60" screens minimum. Below that size might be cheaper, but render a less distinguishable improvement.

None of the manufacturers we talked to at CES this past January (about 14 of them) indicated any plans for sets <55". We'll see if things change in 2 1/2 weeks at CES 2103 whereby something different is stated.

Edited by hdtvfan0001, 22 December 2012 - 03:44 PM.

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#55 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

If they drive 4K into smaller screens (where people can afford it) then the distance becomes even smaller. A more typical 55-60" needs a viewing distance under 6'!


I don't know where you get your Statistics from but for a 55-60" needing a distance under 6' I strongly disagree.

I have a 55" and I am 8 to 10 feet away which is Perfect and anything closer woud allow you to see a Grainey Picture.

Typically it is 2 times the Viewing Size of the Display Device so a 60" would be 5 feet times 2 or 10 feet. :)
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#56 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

The 2 ISF certified technicians I know have repeatedly told me firsthand that viewing distance varies by room size, screen size, lighting (possible ambient), screen type (front/rear projection, LED, LCD, Plasma) and viewer preferences - as much subjective stuff as any "science".


Those people should never have been certified.

Of course, considering the meters many so called professionals use.....

#57 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

Those people should never have been certified.

Of course, considering the meters many so called professionals use.....


The one I used cost well over $5,000 and it was recommended by the guy who started ISF.
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#58 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:04 PM

The one I used cost well over $5,000 and it was recommended by the guy who started ISF.


The Minolta meter (which cost 2x $5k) does not hold up well to today's Spectrometers - which is needed on today's displays.

#59 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

The Minolta meter (which cost 2x $5k) does not hold up well to today's Spectrometers - which is needed on today's displays.


Most true professionals have both a colorimeter and a spectroradiometer.
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#60 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

Those people should never have been certified.

!rolling

Yeah....uh huh....right...

The Minolta meter (which cost 2x $5k) does not hold up well to today's Spectrometers - which is needed on today's displays.

Uh huh....sure...

Next we'll hear that since that gem of info was something found on the Internet someplace , it has to be true. :rolleyes:

Most true professionals have both a colorimeter and a spectroradiometer.

Yup...and the ISF mandates those as required for more than 2 years now.

Thanks for adding some real information. :up:

Bottom line...all that other bogus stuff about 9' viewing for an 84" display is way out of reality.
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#61 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:28 PM

The Minolta's are high-end and highly regarded.
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#62 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:29 PM

The Minolta's are high-end and highly regarded.

Yes they are.

It's refreshing to read something from an informed source posting here.
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#63 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:35 PM

Yes they are.

It's refreshing to read something from an informed source posting here.


Don't get used to it. :)
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#64 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:36 PM

Don't get used to it. :)

Now that's just plain funny. :lol::rolling::icon_lol:
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#65 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

I don't own a spectroradiometer. I only have a SpectraCal C6 with CalMAN 5. Which ain't too shabby...
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#66 OFFLINE   lipcrkr

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:19 AM

Wrong...the 4K HDTVs cost no where near that kind of money... ;)

The 84" Sony you reference even shows up on their website at retail pricing <$25K...

http://store.sony.co...CFQ0GnQodwm8AHQ

Even at retail, they are < 1/3 the cost you describe. By this time next year...they'll be much less. And that's for a 4K HDTV with a huge 84" screen in comparison.

As for the difference in imagery...if you indeed saw 4K original content on an 4K HDTV as you state...and claim your 1080p 55" Samsung "looked just as good"...then one has to wonder about that observation as well.


Sorry for the mis-statement, i meant 30K which is what the placard said in November. And yes, i saw original 4k content on the 84". And i also said my 55" HDTV looked just as good IN MY OPINION. Most of us can't afford a $5000 dollar TV let alone a 25k TV. Most of us don't have space in our apartments/houses for TV above 65". So i will once again say that my 55" IN MY OPINION, is just as good on DIRECTV HDTV as any 4k content.........IN MY OPINION.

#67 OFFLINE   scoop8

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 06:28 AM

I don't know where you get your Statistics from but for a 55-60" needing a distance under 6' I strongly disagree.

I have a 55" and I am 8 to 10 feet away which is Perfect and anything closer woud allow you to see a Grainey Picture.

Typically it is 2 times the Viewing Size of the Display Device so a 60" would be 5 feet times 2 or 10 feet. :)


My viewing distance is about the same as the 2x rule of thumb that you mentioned. I have a 50" Panny Plasma (1080p '08) and I'm about 8.5 ft from the screen. I've tried a closer viewing distance but I seem to be more comfortable with he current distance.

I've looked at a couple of those online "viewing distance" calculators and most of them recommend a closer distance but it's all subjective as someone mentioned here. Calculators are ok to get an idea of what the THX, etc, recommendations are, but it's the individual's pair of eyes that will decide what's best for them.

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#68 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 08:07 AM

Sorry for the mis-statement, i meant 30K which is what the placard said in November. And yes, i saw original 4k content on the 84". And i also said my 55" HDTV looked just as good IN MY OPINION. Most of us can't afford a $5000 dollar TV let alone a 25k TV. Most of us don't have space in our apartments/houses for TV above 65". So i will once again say that my 55" IN MY OPINION, is just as good on DIRECTV HDTV as any 4k content.........IN MY OPINION.

No sweat - that explains the $90K amount - opinions are always welcome. :)

Seems you're enjoying your 55" HDTV, and that's a good thing.

You posed an interesting question - What is the real market for the very-large HDTVs?

What I have seen is that a 60" HDTV is no longer "king of the hill" as it was just a few years back. I have many friends with 60" or larger displays, but those of us at DBSTalk don't always experience the mainstream view....

My 116" HD front projector setup isn't exactly "average", yet there seem to be a number of folks here with similar setups - more than some might think. My 55" Sony is my "secondary" display.

What is obvious (based on various retail store promotions), is that there are more and more larger displays becoming available for purchase. That would seem to encourage manufacturers to consider 4K content delivered on 4K HDTVs in the 60" and larger range.

A number of DBSTalkers will be at the 2013 Consumer Electronics Show in just over 2 weeks...and we'll make it a point to look around for the 4K HDTVs and ask more questions on future plans.

In the mean time, I agree that DirecTV HD content does look quite nice on our current displays.
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#69 OFFLINE   Paul Secic

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:54 AM

That's an interesting question.

At the last Consumer Electronics Show (Jan 12), a number of us saw several 4K HDTVs presented - with stunning imagery. There was even a 3D 4K HDTV shown (the images below show the 4K HDTV and the 3D HDTV demo units). The Sharp booth had an 8K HDTV.

The important point of note on that is only 1 device we saw was actually running 4K original content - the rest showing 1080p content on the 4K devices. The one unit showing 4K content on a 4K HDTV was a clear leap in resolution, whereas those showing 1080p content on 4K HDTV's was better, but a noticeably lesser leap.

What was learned is that recording technology for 4K was still quite new, at least in North America.

Other things we learned - the bandwidth required to deliver 4K HDTV transmissions was significantly higher than 1080p as well. Roughly - 1 1080p HD channel needed approximately the same bandwidth as 5 SD channels to transmit. In the case of 4K HDTV, it takes about 5 times the bandwidth of 1080P.

The net impact - the transmission bandwidth for just one (1) 4K HDTV signal would be about the same as 25-28 SD channels from just a few years ago. This is a major capacity leap.

It is fair to assume that future DirecTV sat bandwidth will be mandatory to provide added bandwidth capacity.

In addition, the storage capacity of 4K HDTV content on some form of media is also exponentially greater. It also requires new recording cameras.

What all this means - we were told the higher probability is that the latest dual-sided high density 50 GB Blu Ray disks could now support 4K content, and would likely be the first source of distribution for 4K HDTV content. People who eventually have 4K HDTVs in their home in the next year or more will first use those 4K Blu Rays to show them off and use them.

Thereafter - probably 2,3, or maybe 4 years from now, mainstream 4K HDTV will be supported with broadcast content. The only thing that might impact or accelerate this timeline would be new content compression technology, which a few manufacturers are actually working on at this time.

We should learn more in a little over 3 weeks when several of us attend CES 2013 in January.


This won't happen for 15 years, if then.

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#70 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

This won't happen for 15 years, if then.

Put me down for $20 against that wager...I love easy money. :D
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#71 OFFLINE   unixguru

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 03:50 PM

I don't know where you get your Statistics from but for a 55-60" needing a distance under 6' I strongly disagree.

I have a 55" and I am 8 to 10 feet away which is Perfect and anything closer woud allow you to see a Grainey Picture.

Typically it is 2 times the Viewing Size of the Display Device so a 60" would be 5 feet times 2 or 10 feet. :)


Just using what the chart said and I didn't create the chart. It claims THX and SMPTE as sources.

Here is another calculator that I have used in the past.

THX, SMPTE, and visual acuity all say small numbers. These are respected sources - they aren't going to claim recommended distances that are grainy.

Don't shoot the messenger. My gut also says it sounds fishy.

#72 OFFLINE   Rockaway1836

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:27 PM

Just using what the chart said and I didn't create the chart. It claims THX and SMPTE as sources.

Here is another calculator that I have used in the past.

THX, SMPTE, and visual acuity all say small numbers. These are respected sources - they aren't going to claim recommended distances that are grainy.

Don't shoot the messenger. My gut also says it sounds fishy.


The calculatror shows 10 1/2 feet for an 80 inch set. That seems to be in line with the distance that I and many others owners of that size set sit .

#73 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

Don't shoot the messenger. My gut also says it sounds fishy.

You know they often say one's gut instincts are usually right....

The calculatror shows 10 1/2 feet for an 80 inch set. That seems to be in line with the distance that I and many others owners of that size set sit .

Really? The only people I know with screens 80" or larger have projectors. Screens of that size or larger are still quite new and rare in an HDTV. Wonder who/where all these "many other owners" would be...
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#74 OFFLINE   Rockaway1836

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:41 AM

You know they often say one's gut instincts are usually right....

Really? The only people I know with screens 80" or larger have projectors. Screens of that size or larger are still quite new and rare in an HDTV. Wonder who/where all these "many other owners" would be...


I know of at least one other member here that owns an 80 inch Sharp. The rest are found on the several 80 inch threads at AVS.

#75 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:49 AM

I know of at least one other member here that owns an 80 inch Sharp. The rest are found on the several 80 inch threads at AVS.

Pretty much as expected. Cool beans.

So back to topic...

In terms of anticipating a timeline for 4K HDTV (aka Ultra HD) - that specific question will be asked in 2 weeks at CES...and if any definitive information is presented...it will be shared.
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