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DIRECTV 4k Ultra HD Channel Anticipation


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#41 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:11 AM

IMHO 4K tv won't ever see the light of day as a broadcast medium...
...Anyway you spin it, I just don't see how the media industry would invest the amount of resource it would require to broadcast 4K content when 8K is so close behind it.

Actually...more than 15 major manufacturers already have plans to sell 4K HDTV units sometime by 2014 or 2015. There were plenty of them on display this past January at CES, and more are expected in 3 weeks at CES 2013. Those are major investments pointing to 4K HDTV becoming a reality.

That said...4K as a broadcast medium is much earlier in the development cycle. It will also require a large investment, so it's simply too early to forecast if/when/how that will go.
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#42 OFFLINE   YakeVlad

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:50 AM

Actually...more than 15 major manufacturers already have plans to sell 4K HDTV units sometime by 2014 or 2015. There were plenty of them on display this past January at CES, and more are expected in 3 weeks at CES 2013. Those are major investments pointing to 4K HDTV becoming a reality.

That said...4K as a broadcast medium is much earlier in the development cycle. It will also require a large investment, so it's simply too early to forecast if/when/how that will go.


It doesn't surprise me to hear the manufacturers making such a push into 4K tv units. They've been hurting on sales the past couple of years and their hopes of 3D tv's producing a surge in sales never materialized. But outside of some early adopters, I'm not sure how many they'll be able to move. There is a very limited amount if any content out and the economy is still in the tank.

Don't get me wrong, I love new tech and gadgets and often fall under the early adopter category myself. But I also pay attention to R&D and tech timelines. The 4K and 8K development timelines appear close enough that IMO there's a significant chance for 4K to be skipped by the broadcasters and media companies. I'll be taking a wait and see approach to where the media companies are headed with their Next-Gen U-HDTV plans before I'm willing to make such a purchase decision this time around.

I'm looking forward to reading what you and some of the others see and hear on the floors at CES.

#43 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:00 AM

It doesn't surprise me to hear the manufacturers making such a push into 4K tv units. They've been hurting on sales the past couple of years and their hopes of 3D tv's producing a surge in sales never materialized. But outside of some early adopters, I'm not sure how many they'll be able to move. There is a very limited amount if any content out and the economy is still in the tank.

Don't get me wrong, I love new tech and gadgets and often fall under the early adopter category myself. But I also pay attention to R&D and tech timelines. I'll be taking a wait and see approach to where the media companies are headed with their Next-Gen U-HDTV plans before I'm willing to make such a purchase decision this time.

Actually...a number of manufacturers have done quite well the past few years...while a few others have not. The indistry as a whole has been parallel to the general U.S. economic patterns.

The 4k movement has as much to do with keeping the North America HD viewing experience in line with the rest of the world as it does any form of sales "push". In Asia...they're several years ahead on ultra HD, and many of the very same manufacturers that have successfully delivered 4K (or equivalent) in other parts of the world also make U.S. HDTV's...so they already have plenty of experience on the next-gen standard.

Having seen 4K content on 4K HDTVs...it is impressive. It's hard to believe a 1080p image would look inferior...but side-to-side...4K is clearly (no pun intended) superior. My local 18-screen Commercial Theater adopted 4K wiht new projectors in recent months, and the imagery there is leaps and bounds beyond anything previously on the big screen. Hollywood is already upgrading their technology for future content.

You are absolutely correct that price, 4K content availability, and industry commitment to more channels of content (such as broadcast and Blu Ray) will drive any success. Right now its all new and expensive. The same held true for HDTV a few years back. We'll see how momentum goes with 4K.
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#44 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:52 PM

Actually, as we have seen with 3D and other CE devices, just because people build it, does not mean the customers will come.

Even BluRay has not been the success most expected (except Steve Jobs). More are excited about lower rez Netflixs and iTunes than BluRay.

#45 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:47 PM

Actually, as we have seen with 3D and other CE devices, just because people build it, does not mean the customers will come.

Even BluRay has not been the success most expected (except Steve Jobs). More are excited about lower rez Netflixs and iTunes than BluRay.

Not everything flies with consumers...but then again...the U.S. is already behind the rest of the world adopting 4K HDTV...and manufacturers seem focused on closing the gap. With almost every major HDTV maker engaged in 4K technology...it's beyond a whim of an idea.
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#46 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:58 AM

Yes, it seems that 3D HDTV is not gathering the Masses as it seems to be a Nice to Have rather than I Really Need It Basis and with the Economy being what it is.......:D
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#47 OFFLINE   lipcrkr

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:18 AM

I saw the Sony 84" 4K HDTV in Vegas about a month ago. They had 4K programming, like a travel special on Greece, and yes, it was amazing. However, my 55" Samsung looked just as good (IMO) and about 90 thousand dollars cheaper. In other words, i'm content with what i have and my only hope is DirecTV gets HDTV for EVERY station that exists. Let's do that first.

#48 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:50 AM

I saw the Sony 84" 4K HDTV in Vegas about a month ago. They had 4K programming, like a travel special on Greece, and yes, it was amazing. However, my 55" Samsung looked just as good (IMO) and about 90 thousand dollars cheaper. In other words, i'm content with what i have and my only hope is DirecTV gets HDTV for EVERY station that exists. Let's do that first.

Wrong...the 4K HDTVs cost no where near that kind of money... ;)

The 84" Sony you reference even shows up on their website at retail pricing <$25K...

http://store.sony.co...CFQ0GnQodwm8AHQ

Even at retail, they are < 1/3 the cost you describe. By this time next year...they'll be much less. And that's for a 4K HDTV with a huge 84" screen in comparison.

As for the difference in imagery...if you indeed saw 4K original content on an 4K HDTV as you state...and claim your 1080p 55" Samsung "looked just as good"...then one has to wonder about that observation as well.
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#49 OFFLINE   lokar

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:48 AM

Actually, as we have seen with 3D and other CE devices, just because people build it, does not mean the customers will come.

Even BluRay has not been the success most expected (except Steve Jobs). More are excited about lower rez Netflixs and iTunes than BluRay.


I agree with all of this, it is still less than 50% that I go into a bar or restaurant and they even have current level HDTV hooked up properly. Most people seem more concerned with portability and not having to get off the couch to put a disc in a player rather then quality. I see 4k becoming a niche item like laserdiscs and I can't see broadcasters adopting it at all, considering all the bitching and moaning and alleged money they lost transitioning to HDTV. Nobody in my market even does HD news yet.

#50 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:57 AM

Nobody in my market even does HD news yet.

No doubt cost has something to do with it.

Then again...I have 5 local HD news broadcasts here...so location and population are considerations as well.
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#51 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 12:07 PM

...The 4K and 8K development timelines appear close enough that IMO there's a significant chance for 4K to be skipped by the broadcasters and media companies...


The one difference is that 4K, with some reasonable advances in compression technology, can fit into a single OTA broadcast channel. 8K OTA would require at least 2 broadcast channels' bandwidth, even with significant advances in compression. 8K will also require a new storage and distribution medium beyond the current capacity of Blu-Ray, or again, really significant compression advances.

While a lot of people will go out and buy new TVs just because the technology is there, most people replace TVs only when the old one breaks. Since MANY of the HDTVs in use today are no more than 5 years old (not to mention the ones that will be replaced in the next 2 or 3 years), and figuring a 10 to 15 year lifespan for HDTVs, I doubt you'll see much of an installed base for 4K or 8K content before 2020 or so.

I don't doubt for a minute that UDHTV is coming, but I think it will mostly be delivered non-linearly (i.e. not broadcast), and won't be really well established until well into the next decade.

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#52 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

The one difference is that 4K, with some reasonable advances in compression technology, can fit into a single OTA broadcast channel. 8K OTA would require at least 2 broadcast channels' bandwidth, even with significant advances in compression. 8K will also require a new storage and distribution medium beyond the current capacity of Blu-Ray, or again, really significant compression advances.


The FCC is preparing to take back Broadcast Spectrum and repack current OTA stations. As thus, 4K will not be able to fit on a single OTA channel after the FCC repacks it and sells the spectrum to Wireless providers so more people can watch Netflixs on an iphone or ipad while charging customers more money for higher data amounts.

#53 OFFLINE   unixguru

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that viewing distance is a huge factor here.

Chart: 1080P Does Matter says that 84" 4K benefit becomes noticeable at ~9'. Viewing Distance Chart says ~35'. One is for average vision (20/20!) and the other for eagle vision. Me thinks the eagle vision number is really optimistic.

Where does most the population fall on the vision scale? That's why they call it average :lol:

How many people have the option of sitting <10' from their screen and have the space/$ for 84"? Few. (Even if you think their number is low and pick 15' then 84" is still huge.)

We sit ~15' from our 65". Unless we win the lotto we won't be moving nor will we be spending >$5000. By the average chart we would need >100" for 4K to matter (even 1080 is overkill now but you don't see any large 720).

The only way 4K is going to happen in any volume is if it costs about the same as 1080. That's why we have a 1080 when a 720 would do.

Now if I was well healed I could afford a dedicated theater room with a screen 10' from my chair and a 84" 4K. But if I was that healed I wouldn't want to sit 10' from the screen in a small theater so an 84" isn't good enough. Nor is a 100". The only solution is 120"+ and that spells only one thing - projection. Same reason it works in a commercial theater.

If they drive 4K into smaller screens (where people can afford it) then the distance becomes even smaller. A more typical 55-60" needs a viewing distance under 6'!

This isn't the same as the Retina Display from Apple. That makes sense because the normal viewing distance is very close. The Apple 27" display also makes sense at 2560x1440 because the normal viewing distance is 2-3'.

I just don't see 4K being useful in average videophile homes for a very long time. Maybe in 20 years when the TV is a film that you unroll and stick to a wall and is 10'+. So I predict another thud just like 3D.

#54 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:35 PM

One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that viewing distance is a huge factor here.

Chart: 1080P Does Matter says that 84" 4K benefit becomes noticeable at ~9'.

Let us know when you find an actual home setup with that 7' diagonal screen (84") and people sitting only 9 feet away. Good luck.

The manufacturers we spoke with at the Consumer Electronics show presented 4K HDTVs at about the 2 X distance range, and with 4K content shown at two sites only...the viewing clarity from 4K content was definitively superior at 15 feet when compared with a 1080p side-by-side.

There are no hard and fast viewing RULES...there are only RECOMMENDATIONS. As an example...if you Google "recommended viewing distance"...you'll get 2.3 million hits. The most common is a recommendation of 2-2/12 times the screen size in distance when you view a screen over 46" in size. For the 84" HDTV...regardless of 1080p or 4K HDTV...you'd be looking at 14-21 feet of distance being "recommended", much different from the 9' number you referenced. The 2 ISF certified technicians I know have repeatedly told me firsthand that viewing distance varies by room size, screen size, lighting (possible ambient), screen type (front/rear projection, LED, LCD, Plasma) and viewer preferences - as much subjective stuff as any "science".

If they drive 4K into smaller screens (where people can afford it) then the distance becomes even smaller. A more typical 55-60" needs a viewing distance under 6'

Again, the 6' distance for a 60" diagonal screen is a mismatch recommendation. You are correct in terms of the primary benefit for 4K being in 55-60" screens minimum. Below that size might be cheaper, but render a less distinguishable improvement.

None of the manufacturers we talked to at CES this past January (about 14 of them) indicated any plans for sets <55". We'll see if things change in 2 1/2 weeks at CES 2103 whereby something different is stated.

Edited by hdtvfan0001, 22 December 2012 - 03:44 PM.

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#55 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 05:35 PM

If they drive 4K into smaller screens (where people can afford it) then the distance becomes even smaller. A more typical 55-60" needs a viewing distance under 6'!


I don't know where you get your Statistics from but for a 55-60" needing a distance under 6' I strongly disagree.

I have a 55" and I am 8 to 10 feet away which is Perfect and anything closer woud allow you to see a Grainey Picture.

Typically it is 2 times the Viewing Size of the Display Device so a 60" would be 5 feet times 2 or 10 feet. :)
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#56 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

The 2 ISF certified technicians I know have repeatedly told me firsthand that viewing distance varies by room size, screen size, lighting (possible ambient), screen type (front/rear projection, LED, LCD, Plasma) and viewer preferences - as much subjective stuff as any "science".


Those people should never have been certified.

Of course, considering the meters many so called professionals use.....

#57 OFFLINE   Richierich

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

Those people should never have been certified.

Of course, considering the meters many so called professionals use.....


The one I used cost well over $5,000 and it was recommended by the guy who started ISF.
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#58 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:04 PM

The one I used cost well over $5,000 and it was recommended by the guy who started ISF.


The Minolta meter (which cost 2x $5k) does not hold up well to today's Spectrometers - which is needed on today's displays.

#59 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:20 PM

The Minolta meter (which cost 2x $5k) does not hold up well to today's Spectrometers - which is needed on today's displays.


Most true professionals have both a colorimeter and a spectroradiometer.
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#60 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:24 PM

Those people should never have been certified.

!rolling

Yeah....uh huh....right...

The Minolta meter (which cost 2x $5k) does not hold up well to today's Spectrometers - which is needed on today's displays.

Uh huh....sure...

Next we'll hear that since that gem of info was something found on the Internet someplace , it has to be true. :rolleyes:

Most true professionals have both a colorimeter and a spectroradiometer.

Yup...and the ISF mandates those as required for more than 2 years now.

Thanks for adding some real information. :up:

Bottom line...all that other bogus stuff about 9' viewing for an 84" display is way out of reality.
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