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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Condominium Problem - need advice


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34 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   trh

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 02:50 PM

Can you please tell me where you read this? I've read the link to OTARD, but maybe there's a different link.

Same link.

Q: If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?

A: The rule applies to antenna users who live in a multiple dwelling unit building, such as a condominium or apartment building, if the antenna user has an exclusive use area in which to install the antenna. "Exclusive use" means an area of the property that only you, and persons you permit, may enter and use to the exclusion of other residents. For example, your condominium or apartment may include a balcony, terrace, deck or patio that only you can use, and the rule applies to these areas. The rule does not apply to common areas, such as the roof, the hallways, the walkways or the exterior walls of a condominium or apartment building. Restrictions on antennas installed in these common areas are not covered by the Commission's rule. For example, the rule would not apply to restrictions that prevent drilling through the exterior wall of a condominium or rental unit and thus restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling.

(I added the bolding).

I haven't read anything in the OTARD about 'grandfathering'. For clarification you certainly can file a petition with the FCC. But I personally wouldn't drill any holes until after it was resolved.

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#22 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:21 PM

I just got off the phone with the FCC. They are sending me the information on how to file a petition for a declamatory ruling -


You're getting WAAAAAYYYYY ahead of yourself. You say you aren't even there yet. Wait until you are. Look things over. Get with the local techs and the building management. They may have already worked this kind of thing out with other tenants in the mean time.
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#23 OFFLINE   mikemyers

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 09:45 PM

......I haven't read anything in the OTARD about 'grandfathering'. For clarification you certainly can file a petition with the FCC. But I personally wouldn't drill any holes until after it was resolved.



Good advice - in that case, I will have it temporarily clamped to the balcony railing, "just in case". Here's the letter from the FCC:


=========================================

You are receiving this email in response to your inquiry to the FCC.

Mike,
Thank you for contacting the FCC with this important matter. I hope you find this information useful.


1. How do I file a petition for declaratory ruling and where?
There is no special form for a petition. You may simply describe the facts, including the specific restriction(s) that you wish to challenge. If possible, include contact information such as telephone numbers for all parties involved, if available, and attach a copy of the restriction(s) and any relevant correspondence. If this is not possible, be sure to include the exact language of the restriction in question with the petition. Parties may petition the Commission for a declaratory ruling under Section 1.2 of the Commission's rules, 47 C.F.R. 1.2, or a court of competent jurisdiction, to determine whether a particular restriction is permissible or prohibited under this rule.

If someone wishes to file either a Petition for Declaratory Ruling or a Petition for Waiver pursuant to the Commission's Over-the-Air Reception Devices Rule (47 CFR 1.4000), they must file an original and two copies of the Petition at the following address:

Office of the Secretary
Federal Communications Commission
445 12th Street, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20554
Attn: Media Bureau


2. What are the requirements for filing a petition for a waiver or declaratory ruling?
Petitions for declaratory rulings and waivers must be served on all interested parties. If you are a viewer, you must serve a copy of the Petition on the entity seeking to enforce the restriction (i.e., the local government, community association or landlord). If you are a local government, community association or landlord, you must serve a copy of the Petition on the residents in the community who currently have or wish to install antennas that will be affected by the restriction your Petition seeks to maintain.

If a local government seeks a declaratory ruling or a waiver from the Commission, the local government must take steps to afford reasonable constructive notice to residents in its jurisdiction (e.g., by placing a notice in a local newspaper of general circulation)

If a viewer files a petition or lawsuit challenging a local government's ordinance, an association's restriction, or a landlord's lease, the viewer must serve the local government, association or landlord, as appropriate.


3. What are my rights until a decision is made on the declaratory ruling regarding a currently installed dish?
A restriction cannot be enforced while the petition is pending. Unless the restriction being challenged or for which a waiver is sought is necessary for reasons of safety or historic preservation.
There is no specified time frame for a decision on a petition for a declaratory ruling.

4. Who enforces a declaratory ruling?
If the Commission determines that the restriction is valid, you will have a minimum of 21 days to comply with this ruling. If you remove your antenna during this period, in most cases you cannot be fined. However, this 21-day grace period does not apply if the FCC rule does not apply to your installation (for example, if the antenna is installed on a condominium general common element or hanging outside beyond an apartment balcony. If the FCC rule does not apply at all in your case, the 21-day grace period does not apply.

5. What is the process for an OTARD dispute after the consumer sends a petition to the FCC for a ruling?
Once the Petition for a Declaratory Ruling is received at the FCC it is forwarded to the Media Bureau where it is entered onto a tracking chart. Then the petition is reviewed and the Petitioner is contacted. The HOA/landlord will also be contacted by the FCC.
After, reviewed a preliminary determination is made whether or not the OTARD Rule applies to the situation. At that time a rejection or acceptance letter will be sent. This can then lead to an informal negotiation, a formal PN and/or and FCC Order. This complete process can take 1 to 2 years to complete.

#24 OFFLINE   trh

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 10:19 PM

The OTARD link you provided has all this (and a little bit more).

The one thing I think your association is doing 'wrong' is mandating a specific mount. There are several types of non-pen mounts (like the one kenglish linked to) that work fine without doing any damage to the deck/building.

Good luck.

#25 OFFLINE   mikemyers

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 01:51 AM

.......There are several types of non-pen mounts ...... that work fine .......



Having seen the damage that the previous hurricanes caused in Miami, and having lived through them with the building shaking, and seeing the concrete wall surrounding the swimming pool having a whole section blown over, "worked fine" is not really applicable
to my situation, unless I was physically there to remove the dish for every potential storm.... and even if I was there, I would then lose access to the TV news that I have always had on during the storm so I'd know what was going on. Much of the time I'm away, traveling, with no way to do anything about the dish. .....and three feet away from where the dish will be, is my new hurricane glass balcony door and window, which would likely be damaged (if not destroyed) were the dish to move around.

Maybe I should post the photos here of the damage done by the last major storm that hit just south of Miami - much of the entire house was blown away. I saw which buildings survived, and which did not. My condo "should" survive something like this, and based on what I know about engineering and the forces involved, a temporary mount in this application is an invitation to disaster.


This photo is similar to the photos I took 20 minutes away from my condo:
http://www.tampabay....0109_58055c.jpg

My apartment survived all these storms with no problems.
My DTV dish survived all these storms with no problem.
The trees near my building were blown over.
The concrete block wall surrounding the building was blown away.

When DTV installs a dish properly, unless the structure itself fails, the dish remains in place.
To me, there is no substitute for having the dish firmly bolted in place.

(....and since the board hasn't said anything about the other fixtures bolted to the concrete, shutters, doors, outside lighting fixtures, cover plates for when/if the lighting fixtures are removed, I don't see why they should single out only a DTV dish..... Will post here in 6 weeks or so how it all works out.)

Edited by mikemyers, 27 December 2012 - 02:03 AM.


#26 OFFLINE   trh

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:40 AM

Nothing in the OTARD grants you the right to install a hurricane proof dish. You want to drill holes into a building, then you need to get out of a condo and buy a house. Or get a change to OTARD. But until then, your association has every legal right to prevent you from drilling holes in their building.

As for access to local news, I recommend an OTA antenna. With most severe weather and a dish, you're going to lose reception so get an antenna to receive your local channels.

#27 OFFLINE   SayWhat?

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 07:54 AM

As for access to local news, I recommend an OTA antenna. With most severe weather and a dish, you're going to lose reception so get an antenna to receive your local channels.


Yup. With the heavy cloud deck and rain, you'll lose signal long before the main brunt of the storm arrives and it will stay out until long after the storm passes regardless of the dish moving or not.
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#28 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 08:28 AM

In light of the fact that hundreds of thousands of DBS satellite subscribers use non-penetrating mounts, the FCC will not consider requiring the use of one to aviod damaging an exterior surface that the HOA may be responsible for maintaining does not constitute an unreasonable expense.

I know steel prices have gone up since I used to buy these a decade ago, but I used to get commercial grade, non-pen mounts with square bases with trays that held 8 cinder blocks for $50 each. I know they cost more than that now.

Last I knew, the major manufacturers of those mounts, Baird and Rohn, would tell you for free how much ballast you would have to load onto their appropriate sized mount to withstand a 125 MPH wind in your situation. For the SWM dish, I'd guess six blocks is enough, eight tops. I think you can buy a suitable mount and blocks for under $100. I don't see why anyone would fight over that amount.

#29 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:06 AM

Since I've had DTV for 15 years, attached to the concrete, if I simply go ahead and re-install the dish properly, do they have the legal rights to actually fine me?

They have all the rights that you gave them when you entered into a contract with them. These rights can absolutely supersede those rights otherwise guaranteed by law.

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#30 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 04:18 PM

They have all the rights that you gave them when you entered into a contract with them. These rights can absolutely supersede those rights otherwise guaranteed by law.


The FCC regulations regarding the placement of DBS satellite dishes explicitly supercede all laws, regulations and restrictive covenants.

#31 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:14 AM

The FCC regulations regarding the placement of DBS satellite dishes explicitly supercede all laws, regulations and restrictive covenants.

Even if you specifically waived those rights as part of a contract?

I'm dubious.

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#32 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:45 AM

Even if you specifically waived those rights as part of a contract?

I'm dubious.


Not in California at least.

#33 OFFLINE   trh

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:28 PM

Same here in FL.

#34 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:19 PM

There would be no point in writing into the law that the rights supercede any written into a contract if a party could pressure someone into foregoing those rights in a contract. I doubt that a contract that says my landlord doesn't have to meet residential occupancy standards for cleanliness or minimum winter temperature is enforceable either.

#35 OFFLINE   Herdfan

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 08:02 AM

Even if you specifically waived those rights as part of a contract?

I'm dubious.


The issue then is that the provision is invalid because it conflicts with the law. Just like an employee can't waive his rights to overtime pay.

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