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HR24 vs HR34 better PQ?


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91 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   harperhometheater

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:05 PM

....and what refrigerator and other transformers are hooked up in your home, injecting all sorts of noise into your home electric! :D
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#27 OFFLINE   Rockaway1836

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:16 PM

Maybe I am having a placebo effect? But, to me. This new HR34 looks to have better pq then my HR24. Is this possible?


It's funny that you brought this up. We just got an HR34 the other day. Both my wife and I thought the PQ was better than the HR21, that used to be there. Placebo came to mind right away.

#28 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:32 PM

....and what refrigerator and other transformers are hooked up in your home, injecting all sorts of noise into your home electric! :D

Uh....uh....that's probably where the line needs to be drawn... :D
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#29 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 02:09 PM

I hear tin foil being unfurled in the kitchen.....



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#30 OFFLINE   Drucifer

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 03:02 PM

Maybe I am having a placebo effect? But, to me. This new HR34 looks to have better pq then my HR24. Is this possible?

It the EoW effect.

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#31 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:06 PM

It all has to get to RGB in the end, as those are the primary colors. It is the quality of the decoder that matters most in this case, that goes from YPbPr to RGBHV, wherever it happens, in the set top box or TV. RGBHV is actually the "purest" signal, in video terms. YPbPr/YCbCr/YUV are color difference signals and are the first stage of "squeezing" a signal down to a smaller more manageable size for transport, in the encoding process. Then you go to an "S" video signal (Y/C) , then composite and finally to composite riding on a modulated radio frequency (RF).



Better go ask Joel Silver for a refresher course.

Yes, it has to get to RGB, but RGB is 8 bit resolution and YCbCr is 10 bit resolution.

As for squeezing the signal, all YCbCr does is eliminate the green since it is the dominate color in white which allows much greater effiencency. Simple 6th grade math allows the green to recovered without loss.

#32 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:08 PM

....and what refrigerator and other transformers are hooked up in your home, injecting all sorts of noise into your home electric! :D


Which is exactly why there is a $2k filter before the AC hits the equipment.

And the refrigerator and other things are not clipping or squaring the AC Sine Wave as a APC UPS does.

#33 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:36 PM

Every new generation of HD DVRs has the potential to include newer electronic components inside, including graphics chips.

It's fair to say that as the HR24's and HR34's were released...they reflected some of the more current technology and have the potential to present HD as well as older models.

That said, it still comes down to what actual HDTV you happen to connect up to the HD DVR as well.


Put simply...one would think that since the HR34 has newer components inside...it has the potential to do the better video presentation, however, it also comes does down to what HDTV you use to connect with.


:confused:

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#34 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:21 PM

:confused:


For example, when the first Scientific Atlanta HD DVRs came out in mass around 2004, the DVI/HDMI digitial circuit was not that good. A better picture could be had connecting the unit via component. In fact, many early Digital circuits could not pass a pristine picture which the analog connections could.

As 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation chips/circuits were built, they got better and better and better. The HR34 and HR24 are the newest publicly available technology from D* so have the possibility and probability of having better circuits/chips than older units - although much of the technology was to shrink the size of the chips.

However, it all comes down to the HDTV. There are still plenty of HDTV's being sold today that cannot display 1920x1080p or 24fps. In most cases, a $1000 HDTV will probably not look as good as a $5,000 HDTV - and thats why he states in the end it comes down to what the HDTV can display.

You can put the best driver in the world in a Prius and its not going to outperform a ferrari.

#35 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:59 PM

That depends on your definition of perform
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#36 OFFLINE   spartanstew

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:18 PM

For example,


Thanks, but I understood the concept. Just wondered why he posted it twice.

I'm sure Directv can't wait to get their hands on your unit.

 
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#37 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:28 PM

Thanks, but I understood the concept. Just wondered why he posted it twice.

For those who didn't "get it" the first time... :rolleyes:
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#38 OFFLINE   harperhometheater

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 05:42 PM

Better go ask Joel Silver for a refresher course.

Yes, it has to get to RGB, but RGB is 8 bit resolution and YCbCr is 10 bit resolution.

As for squeezing the signal, all YCbCr does is eliminate the green since it is the dominate color in white which allows much greater effiencency. Simple 6th grade math allows the green to recovered without loss.


Sounds like someone else needs the refresher:

http://www.hdmi.org/...center/faq.aspx

HDMI 1.3:

Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.

I think I know what happens from RGBHV to YCbCr and how it derives its color difference signals. I also know that it uses simple math to recreate the original RGBHV signal, but what I said stands as you actually stated, it gets rid of information from the original, making it smaller for transport/storage, etc., hence why I said a TRUE statement that it "squeezes" the signal (trying to put it in layman's terms). It is also more than just "eliminating the green" as you say.

I knew all his WELL before I ever became ISF certified. That was just a label I needed and wanted for business purposes. I have been in radio and TV broadcasting since 1987, including running a television transmitter site for an NBC Affiliate, broadcasting radio and TV from the back of an EC-130 aircraft in peacetime and war zones all over the world as well as being the Commandant of the schoolhouse that taught all this information to new personnel. As an aside, I also assisted with the engineer in development of the award winning TAW Rock+ Video Scalar/Processor some 10+ years ago. I've worked with the likes of Kevin Miller (co-founder of ISF), Greg Loewen (Lead THX Video Trainer), Alan Gouger (AVS Forum owner), Phil Tuttobene (TAW, Inc. founder/engineer) and MANY other industry experts from NAB, CEDIA, US Government, Etc.

Get a grip dude, you're not the only so called "expert" here! No reason for the derisive tone and attempted put downs! :/
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#39 OFFLINE   D-Nice

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 07:17 PM

The HR24-500 uses RGB colorspace while YPbPr is the standard and what virtually every TV expects to see.

RGB 4:4:4 is 8 bit and YPbPr 4:2:2 is normally 10 bit, but can be 12 bit.

As thus, the YPbPr would have more detail (2 more bit of data 10 v 8).

So in that case, the HR34-700 at 10 bit YPbPr should look better than 8 bit RGB in the HR24-500.

The above color bit depth information is wrong. RGB is fully capable of being 10bit. YPbPr does not have a minimum bit depth of 10bit... and 4:2:2 is only form of YPbPr. It is not by default 10 bit.

Discussing anything above 8bit is irrelevant when discussing broadcast TV (cable and sat), DVD, Bluray and streaming content as they all are mastered/encoded/transmitted in 8bit.

A RGB output should be no different than a YPbPr output all things equal. There are differences between the HR24-500 and other HR24 models, H24/25 and H34... visually and measured. This is not due to RGB vs YPbPr. Its due to chipset differences. The HR24-500 actually measures better than all other DirecTV boxes per calibration software/equipment.

Edited by D-Nice, 23 December 2012 - 07:23 PM.


#40 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:48 AM

The above color bit depth information is wrong. RGB is fully capable of being 10bit. YPbPr does not have a minimum bit depth of 10bit... and 4:2:2 is only form of YPbPr. It is not by default 10 bit.

Discussing anything above 8bit is irrelevant when discussing broadcast TV (cable and sat), DVD, Bluray and streaming content as they all are mastered/encoded/transmitted in 8bit.

A RGB output should be no different than a YPbPr output all things equal. There are differences between the HR24-500 and other HR24 models, H24/25 and H34... visually and measured. This is not due to RGB vs YPbPr. Its due to chipset differences. The HR24-500 actually measures better than all other DirecTV boxes per calibration software/equipment.


Any real supporting source ? URL ?

#41 OFFLINE   bobnielsen

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:59 AM

I wish my eyes were good enough to tell the difference :eek:

#42 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:05 AM

I wish my eyes were good enough to tell the difference :eek:


I wish the programmers sent out material good enough where it would make a difference. Very few channels I have seen even come close to providing material that would tax the video circuits in modern home equipment.

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#43 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:10 AM

I wish the programmers sent out material good enough where it would make a difference. Very few channels I have seen even come close to providing material that would tax the video circuits in modern home equipment.

Hmmm...that's interesting.

How about some form of test channel with HD content that you could use to compare?
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#44 OFFLINE   D-Nice

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

Any real supporting source ? URL ?

Supporting source for what part of my post?

#45 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

Supporting source for what part of my post?


Your last phrase ...

#46 OFFLINE   D-Nice

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

Your last phrase ...

You mean paragraph regarding the 500 series measuring better? I'm a calibrator (Google my "handle" and AVS Forum if you don't know who I am) and have measured the differences with my calibration equipment. The HR24-500's variance from a reference pattern generator (Accupel 4000) is < 1dEuv on grayscale. The gamma is also linear from 5-100% stimuli and matches gamma measurements from a Accupel 4000. I cannot say the same with the other sat boxes. Next time I am calibrating my displays I will save measurements of the HR24-500, H25, H24 and a HR24-100 for your viewing pleasure.

BTW, anyone can see the differences between the HR24-500 and other box simply by looking at the guide. The gray steps are brighter on other boxes compared to the HR24-500.... which is a gamma issue.

#47 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

OK.That's enough. Thanks.

#48 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 12:15 AM

Sounds like someone else needs the refresher:

http://www.hdmi.org/...center/faq.aspx

HDMI 1.3:

Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.

I think I know what happens from RGBHV to YCbCr and how it derives its color difference signals. I also know that it uses simple math to recreate the original RGBHV signal, but what I said stands as you actually stated, it gets rid of information from the original, making it smaller for transport/storage, etc., hence why I said a TRUE statement that it "squeezes" the signal (trying to put it in layman's terms). It is also more than just "eliminating the green" as you say.

I knew all his WELL before I ever became ISF certified. That was just a label I needed and wanted for business purposes. I have been in radio and TV broadcasting since 1987, including running a television transmitter site for an NBC Affiliate, broadcasting radio and TV from the back of an EC-130 aircraft in peacetime and war zones all over the world as well as being the Commandant of the schoolhouse that taught all this information to new personnel. As an aside, I also assisted with the engineer in development of the award winning TAW Rock+ Video Scalar/Processor some 10+ years ago. I've worked with the likes of Kevin Miller (co-founder of ISF), Greg Loewen (Lead THX Video Trainer), Alan Gouger (AVS Forum owner), Phil Tuttobene (TAW, Inc. founder/engineer) and MANY other industry experts from NAB, CEDIA, US Government, Etc.

Get a grip dude, you're not the only so called "expert" here! No reason for the derisive tone and attempted put downs! :/


If you were such an expert you would know that Directv does not have Deep Color Circuits and as thus only supports 8 bit RGB and 10 bit YCbCr.

I can drop names as well, but that means nothing - facts are much better.

#49 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 12:32 AM

Discussing anything above 8bit is irrelevant when discussing broadcast TV (cable and sat), DVD, Bluray and streaming content as they all are mastered/encoded/transmitted in 8bit.

A RGB output should be no different than a YPbPr output all things equal. There are differences between the HR24-500 and other HR24 models, H24/25 and H34... visually and measured. This is not due to RGB vs YPbPr. Its due to chipset differences. The HR24-500 actually measures better than all other DirecTV boxes per calibration software/equipment.
You mean paragraph regarding the 500 series measuring better? I'm a calibrator (Google my "handle" and AVS Forum if you don't know who I am) and have measured the differences with my calibration equipment. The HR24-500's variance from a reference pattern generator (Accupel 4000) is < 1dEuv on grayscale. The gamma is also linear from 5-100% stimuli and matches gamma measurements from a Accupel 4000. I cannot say the same with the other sat boxes. Next time I am calibrating my displays I will save measurements of the HR24-500, H25, H24 and a HR24-100 for your viewing pleasure.

BTW, anyone can see the differences between the HR24-500 and other box simply by looking at the guide. The gray steps are brighter on other boxes compared to the HR24-500.... which is a gamma issue.


OK.That's enough. Thanks.


A better question would have been how he managed to measure that.

To begin with, while D-Nice has known qualifications, so why he is posting stuff like the above has people wondering - I am not sure what his motive is.

First, while everything is mastered in 8 bit, because of digital jitter (timing error) and other issues, errors can essentially reduce 8 bit down upwards of 40%. By having a path for 10 bit resolution, you have built in headroom.

To make it simple, think of having a water pipe that can deliver 8 gallons max a minute. If everything is working properly along the way, you get 8.0 gallons a minute at best. If you have a water pipe that can deliver 10.0 gallons per minute, there is no issue getting 8.0 gallons out even if there is variations in the stream.

As stated before, just because HDMI 1.3 can do Deep Color does not mean that Directv can do that.

If want a outside third party opinion, can call the people at Lumagen (maker of the Radiance Processors) and ask if you should set your processor out to the TV @ RGB 4:4:4 or YPbPr 4:2:2. They will tell you exactly what I told you. RGB 4:4:4 is 8 bit and YPbPr is 10 bit so you use YPbPr 4:2:2

Now, to measure a HR24-500 from 5-100% stimulus as D-Nice claims he did, he would need to be able to produce these known values directly out of the HR24-500 (or the other units he claims to have tested) and as we all know, there is not a 0-100 IRE Pattern Generator inside a HR24-500, thus making his claims impossible.

Also, the Accupel 4000 listed by D-Nice has a known problem with digital output which is why the Accupel 5000 was released.

Last I heard, D-Nice used a cheap meter that was profiled to a more expensive meter (though not a 1nm Spectroradiometer). Unfortunately, this has known limitations as well.

While I respect D-Nice's calibrations, his explanations here have me really wondering......

Edited by SomeRandomIdiot, 25 December 2012 - 12:58 AM.


#50 OFFLINE   harperhometheater

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:02 AM

Merry Christmas, and to all a good night! :)
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