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HR24 vs HR34 better PQ?


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91 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   bobnielsen

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 12:59 AM

I wish my eyes were good enough to tell the difference :eek:

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#42 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:05 AM

I wish my eyes were good enough to tell the difference :eek:


I wish the programmers sent out material good enough where it would make a difference. Very few channels I have seen even come close to providing material that would tax the video circuits in modern home equipment.

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#43 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 05:10 AM

I wish the programmers sent out material good enough where it would make a difference. Very few channels I have seen even come close to providing material that would tax the video circuits in modern home equipment.

Hmmm...that's interesting.

How about some form of test channel with HD content that you could use to compare?
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#44 OFFLINE   D-Nice

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 01:24 PM

Any real supporting source ? URL ?

Supporting source for what part of my post?

#45 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:34 PM

Supporting source for what part of my post?


Your last phrase ...

#46 OFFLINE   D-Nice

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

Your last phrase ...

You mean paragraph regarding the 500 series measuring better? I'm a calibrator (Google my "handle" and AVS Forum if you don't know who I am) and have measured the differences with my calibration equipment. The HR24-500's variance from a reference pattern generator (Accupel 4000) is < 1dEuv on grayscale. The gamma is also linear from 5-100% stimuli and matches gamma measurements from a Accupel 4000. I cannot say the same with the other sat boxes. Next time I am calibrating my displays I will save measurements of the HR24-500, H25, H24 and a HR24-100 for your viewing pleasure.

BTW, anyone can see the differences between the HR24-500 and other box simply by looking at the guide. The gray steps are brighter on other boxes compared to the HR24-500.... which is a gamma issue.

#47 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 04:55 PM

OK.That's enough. Thanks.

#48 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 12:15 AM

Sounds like someone else needs the refresher:

http://www.hdmi.org/...center/faq.aspx

HDMI 1.3:

Deep Color: HDMI 1.3 supports 10-bit, 12-bit and 16-bit (RGB or YCbCr) color depths, up from the 8-bit depths in previous versions of the HDMI specification, for stunning rendering of over one billion colors in unprecedented detail.

I think I know what happens from RGBHV to YCbCr and how it derives its color difference signals. I also know that it uses simple math to recreate the original RGBHV signal, but what I said stands as you actually stated, it gets rid of information from the original, making it smaller for transport/storage, etc., hence why I said a TRUE statement that it "squeezes" the signal (trying to put it in layman's terms). It is also more than just "eliminating the green" as you say.

I knew all his WELL before I ever became ISF certified. That was just a label I needed and wanted for business purposes. I have been in radio and TV broadcasting since 1987, including running a television transmitter site for an NBC Affiliate, broadcasting radio and TV from the back of an EC-130 aircraft in peacetime and war zones all over the world as well as being the Commandant of the schoolhouse that taught all this information to new personnel. As an aside, I also assisted with the engineer in development of the award winning TAW Rock+ Video Scalar/Processor some 10+ years ago. I've worked with the likes of Kevin Miller (co-founder of ISF), Greg Loewen (Lead THX Video Trainer), Alan Gouger (AVS Forum owner), Phil Tuttobene (TAW, Inc. founder/engineer) and MANY other industry experts from NAB, CEDIA, US Government, Etc.

Get a grip dude, you're not the only so called "expert" here! No reason for the derisive tone and attempted put downs! :/


If you were such an expert you would know that Directv does not have Deep Color Circuits and as thus only supports 8 bit RGB and 10 bit YCbCr.

I can drop names as well, but that means nothing - facts are much better.

#49 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 12:32 AM

Discussing anything above 8bit is irrelevant when discussing broadcast TV (cable and sat), DVD, Bluray and streaming content as they all are mastered/encoded/transmitted in 8bit.

A RGB output should be no different than a YPbPr output all things equal. There are differences between the HR24-500 and other HR24 models, H24/25 and H34... visually and measured. This is not due to RGB vs YPbPr. Its due to chipset differences. The HR24-500 actually measures better than all other DirecTV boxes per calibration software/equipment.
You mean paragraph regarding the 500 series measuring better? I'm a calibrator (Google my "handle" and AVS Forum if you don't know who I am) and have measured the differences with my calibration equipment. The HR24-500's variance from a reference pattern generator (Accupel 4000) is < 1dEuv on grayscale. The gamma is also linear from 5-100% stimuli and matches gamma measurements from a Accupel 4000. I cannot say the same with the other sat boxes. Next time I am calibrating my displays I will save measurements of the HR24-500, H25, H24 and a HR24-100 for your viewing pleasure.

BTW, anyone can see the differences between the HR24-500 and other box simply by looking at the guide. The gray steps are brighter on other boxes compared to the HR24-500.... which is a gamma issue.


OK.That's enough. Thanks.


A better question would have been how he managed to measure that.

To begin with, while D-Nice has known qualifications, so why he is posting stuff like the above has people wondering - I am not sure what his motive is.

First, while everything is mastered in 8 bit, because of digital jitter (timing error) and other issues, errors can essentially reduce 8 bit down upwards of 40%. By having a path for 10 bit resolution, you have built in headroom.

To make it simple, think of having a water pipe that can deliver 8 gallons max a minute. If everything is working properly along the way, you get 8.0 gallons a minute at best. If you have a water pipe that can deliver 10.0 gallons per minute, there is no issue getting 8.0 gallons out even if there is variations in the stream.

As stated before, just because HDMI 1.3 can do Deep Color does not mean that Directv can do that.

If want a outside third party opinion, can call the people at Lumagen (maker of the Radiance Processors) and ask if you should set your processor out to the TV @ RGB 4:4:4 or YPbPr 4:2:2. They will tell you exactly what I told you. RGB 4:4:4 is 8 bit and YPbPr is 10 bit so you use YPbPr 4:2:2

Now, to measure a HR24-500 from 5-100% stimulus as D-Nice claims he did, he would need to be able to produce these known values directly out of the HR24-500 (or the other units he claims to have tested) and as we all know, there is not a 0-100 IRE Pattern Generator inside a HR24-500, thus making his claims impossible.

Also, the Accupel 4000 listed by D-Nice has a known problem with digital output which is why the Accupel 5000 was released.

Last I heard, D-Nice used a cheap meter that was profiled to a more expensive meter (though not a 1nm Spectroradiometer). Unfortunately, this has known limitations as well.

While I respect D-Nice's calibrations, his explanations here have me really wondering......

Edited by SomeRandomIdiot, 25 December 2012 - 12:58 AM.


#50 OFFLINE   harperhometheater

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 05:02 AM

Merry Christmas, and to all a good night! :)
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#51 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:30 AM

I wish my eyes were good enough to tell the difference :eek:


As long as we're happy with our PQ, what does it matter? Of course it's subjective, most things are. When Vizios were introduced they had what I thought was a pretty terrible picture. But if all you had to compare it to was an SD set, the PQ on the early Vizios (with an HD feed) would simply blow away the SD set's PQ.

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#52 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:49 AM

You mean paragraph regarding the 500 series measuring better? I'm a calibrator (Google my "handle" and AVS Forum if you don't know who I am) and have measured the differences with my calibration equipment. The HR24-500's variance from a reference pattern generator (Accupel 4000) is < 1dEuv on grayscale. The gamma is also linear from 5-100% stimuli and matches gamma measurements from a Accupel 4000. I cannot say the same with the other sat boxes. Next time I am calibrating my displays I will save measurements of the HR24-500, H25, H24 and a HR24-100 for your viewing pleasure.

BTW, anyone can see the differences between the HR24-500 and other box simply by looking at the guide. The gray steps are brighter on other boxes compared to the HR24-500.... which is a gamma issue.


OK, I believe you. Gotta admit I've struggled with your posts, I just don't have the knowledge to understand them. Not your fault.

In one room I've got a 24-100 and a 24-500. What do you mean by "gray steps*"? I'd like to see exactly what you're trying to explain.

I have wondered about calibrating TV sets properly since I tried it myself with a BD calibration disk. Why would a BD disk be used as the reference for a set that's gonna play mostly 1080i or 720p content? I've done a lot of calibrations on meters and industrial equipment and we always used a reference point that matched the gases or materials that would be in the process. I really never understood using a BD disk for a TV set that wouldn't see all that much 1080p content.

Rich

#53 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 10:17 AM

A better question would have been how he managed to measure that.

To begin with, while D-Nice has known qualifications, so why he is posting stuff like the above has people wondering - I am not sure what his motive is.

First, while everything is mastered in 8 bit, because of digital jitter (timing error) and other issues, errors can essentially reduce 8 bit down upwards of 40%. By having a path for 10 bit resolution, you have built in headroom.

To make it simple, think of having a water pipe that can deliver 8 gallons max a minute. If everything is working properly along the way, you get 8.0 gallons a minute at best. If you have a water pipe that can deliver 10.0 gallons per minute, there is no issue getting 8.0 gallons out even if there is variations in the stream.

As stated before, just because HDMI 1.3 can do Deep Color does not mean that Directv can do that.

If want a outside third party opinion, can call the people at Lumagen (maker of the Radiance Processors) and ask if you should set your processor out to the TV @ RGB 4:4:4 or YPbPr 4:2:2. They will tell you exactly what I told you. RGB 4:4:4 is 8 bit and YPbPr is 10 bit so you use YPbPr 4:2:2

Now, to measure a HR24-500 from 5-100% stimulus as D-Nice claims he did, he would need to be able to produce these known values directly out of the HR24-500 (or the other units he claims to have tested) and as we all know, there is not a 0-100 IRE Pattern Generator inside a HR24-500, thus making his claims impossible.

Also, the Accupel 4000 listed by D-Nice has a known problem with digital output which is why the Accupel 5000 was released.

Last I heard, D-Nice used a cheap meter that was profiled to a more expensive meter (though not a 1nm Spectroradiometer). Unfortunately, this has known limitations as well.

While I respect D-Nice's calibrations, his explanations here have me really wondering......

The thread become more and more interesting, at least for me, sort of tech geek. Unfortunately it's not my area of expertise and I'm all ears to listen and see all deepest technical details of the discussion. Perhaps in new dedicated thread ?

#54 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 01:58 PM

The HR24-500 uses RGB colorspace while YPbPr is the standard and what virtually every TV expects to see.

RGB 4:4:4 is 8 bit and YPbPr 4:2:2 is normally 10 bit, but can be 12 bit.

As thus, the YPbPr would have more detail (2 more bit of data 10 v 8).

So in that case, the HR34-700 at 10 bit YPbPr should look better than 8 bit RGB in the HR24-500.

If the content you might be viewing were either of those, that might be somewhat true.

But the reality is that all HD content at the consumer level is 4:2:0 8 bit, which means that neither colorspace can provide any benefit beyond that, regardless of what they might be capable of. That would be equivalent to putting a mono source into a stereo system. What do you get? Dual-track mono. My car has a speedo that goes up to 120, too, but in traffic I'm kinda limited to about 75.

And "detail" is not really the issue here. Detail has a ceiling set by the pixel map. If your DVR is putting out 1080 to a 1080p TV, that is the top limit of detail.

There are a lot of things that can compromise that detail, such as 1440 imagers, bad focus, crummy lenses, interlace error, bad lighting even, but among them is neither the color scheme nor the bit level; neither is a factor in detail.

A "lower" color scheme (for example, 4:2:0 instead of 4:4:4 or 4:2:2) means that the accuracy of the chroma is dithered a little bit. Instead of each Pr or Pb coefficient representing each pixel as is the case in 4:4:4, in 4:2:2 each coefficient is a blend of one pixel and its next-door neighbor. In 4:2:0 one coefficient represents the value of four pixels, two on one scan line and the two directly below it. It can be considered that the resolution for chroma is then 1/4th what it is for luminance, but detail is really determined by luminance, because our foveal vision is much sharper than our color vision (which is why they can get away with this perceptual coding technique). So that does not really apply to detail, at least as perceived.

A shallower bit depth (8 bit vs. 10 bit, for instance) also has nothing really to do with detail. With 8-bit there are some 232 quantization levels while with 10-bit there are some 1006. Honestly, that is the only real difference; each digital word has two more bits of resolution.

What that means is that the quantization error in the digitization is less than 1/4th as inaccurate for 10 bit as it is for 8 bit, which means the tendency for visible artifacts is a little greater for 8 bit. 8 bit is fine for delivery while 10 and 12 bit really only makes a difference in production and acquisition, where generational losses are a factor.

Again, that does not manifest as a compromise of detail. What it usuallly manifests as is color banding or contouring. You can often see this in pastels or shots of the sky. And a 4:2:0 color scheme allows it to manifest a little more visibly than say 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 would, but only slightly more.

Regardless, for all intents and purposes, RGB vs YPbPr as a final color display method is essentially the same in the normal consumer application, perceptually speaking. True, some TVs handle one slightly better than the other, but just the other differences between TVs, screen types, and manufacturers are much more dramatic in how they affect PQ than the difference between RGB and YPbPr is, at least in this consumer application.
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#55 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 02:25 PM

... comes does down to what HDTV you use to connect with.

Mostly, yes, that's about 99% of the game; once content leaves the digital domain (and it leaves it surprisingly early inside a HDTV, often in the HDMI receive chip which often also contains a DAC) that is when things start to stray from the PQ as delivered.


Put simply...one would think that since the HR34 has newer components inside...it has the potential to do the better video presentation,..

And no.

What really affects PQ before digitization is how well it is prepped, digitized, and encoded, and how much it is compressed is a part of that. That fixed PQ is what eventually hits all decoders equally.

As far as the decoder side (in our DVRs and STBs), all decoders, new and old, are pretty much made equal as far as PQ goes, because they are built to a standard that conforms them to do as close to the exact opposite as possible of what the encoder does, which is the goal. And since what they do is all math, there is only one way to perform that correctly, and they always do, always have, and always will do it exactly as correctly as they always have. There is no room for improvement once things are inside the digital domain.

If the oldest decoders are really based on performing a mathematical function, which is really all they do, and the oldest decoders come up with identical mathematical results to what the newest decoders do, neither can be more accurate than the other; once you get the math correct, there is no way to improve the decoder to get it "righter". And that result is exactly what defines what the coefficients for each pixel are, meaning they are the same everywhere. If your device is using an MPEG AVC decoder, new or old, it will provide the same exact PQ at decode because all of them do the math perfectly, and exactly the same.

There may be improvements in current draw and size and component cost, but the newest decoders really do exactly the same job that the oldest decoders out there do, and they do it pretty much precisely the same way they always have.

If they began to do it differently, the end product would be less fathful to the original encoding, and not more faithful. That translates to increased artifacts rather than diminished artifacts, and worse PQ rather than better PQ.

DACs, same story. There is really only one way to DAC a digital signal into analog, and it is by now such a mature process that there is only the tiniest invisible difference in the outcome between one manufacturer and another or an old DAC and a new one.
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#56 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 03:53 PM

You mean paragraph regarding the 500 series measuring better? I'm a calibrator (Google my "handle" and AVS Forum if you don't know who I am) and have measured the differences with my calibration equipment. The HR24-500's variance from a reference pattern generator (Accupel 4000) is < 1dEuv on grayscale. The gamma is also linear from 5-100% stimuli and matches gamma measurements from a Accupel 4000. I cannot say the same with the other sat boxes. Next time I am calibrating my displays I will save measurements of the HR24-500, H25, H24 and a HR24-100 for your viewing pleasure.

BTW, anyone can see the differences between the HR24-500 and other box simply by looking at the guide. The gray steps are brighter on other boxes compared to the HR24-500.... which is a gamma issue.


Just checked a 500's Guide against a 100's Guide and you certainly are right. There's a major difference in what you call "steps" (I would have called them rows). The 100 has a much more finished bevel between rows while the 500 has a straight gray line. If you stare at it long enough, you can just see a small bevel to the gray line.

So, now I'm confused. Which one is better? :nono2:

Rich

#57 OFFLINE   D-Nice

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

A better question would have been how he managed to measure that.

To begin with, while D-Nice has known qualifications, so why he is posting stuff like the above has people wondering - I am not sure what his motive is.

First, while everything is mastered in 8 bit, because of digital jitter (timing error) and other issues, errors can essentially reduce 8 bit down upwards of 40%. By having a path for 10 bit resolution, you have built in headroom.

To make it simple, think of having a water pipe that can deliver 8 gallons max a minute. If everything is working properly along the way, you get 8.0 gallons a minute at best. If you have a water pipe that can deliver 10.0 gallons per minute, there is no issue getting 8.0 gallons out even if there is variations in the stream.

As stated before, just because HDMI 1.3 can do Deep Color does not mean that Directv can do that.

If want a outside third party opinion, can call the people at Lumagen (maker of the Radiance Processors) and ask if you should set your processor out to the TV @ RGB 4:4:4 or YPbPr 4:2:2. They will tell you exactly what I told you. RGB 4:4:4 is 8 bit and YPbPr is 10 bit so you use YPbPr 4:2:2

Now, to measure a HR24-500 from 5-100% stimulus as D-Nice claims he did, he would need to be able to produce these known values directly out of the HR24-500 (or the other units he claims to have tested) and as we all know, there is not a 0-100 IRE Pattern Generator inside a HR24-500, thus making his claims impossible.

Also, the Accupel 4000 listed by D-Nice has a known problem with digital output which is why the Accupel 5000 was released.

Last I heard, D-Nice used a cheap meter that was profiled to a more expensive meter (though not a 1nm Spectroradiometer). Unfortunately, this has known limitations as well.

While I respect D-Nice's calibrations, his explanations here have me really wondering......

Hmmmm, where to start.....

Let's see, how does one measure a DirecTV box??? I take it you don't know how to place test patterns on a USB stick or stream it over the network. Duh!

Bit depth..... which bit depth to send a display depends on the display itself. For instance 2012 Panasonics work best with a 4:4:4 8 bit signal. 2011 Panasonics are best with a 4:2:2 8 bit signal. Sony LEDs 4:4:4 8bit. Not one of them show a superior picture with 10bit and/or higher signal types which is no more than padding an 8 bit signal with zeros.

Accupel.... there is nothing wrong with the 4000 and its digital output. If you think it is, show me the data.

Meter I use.... I use a Klein-10 in the field and it is referenced to a Photo Research 5nm PR-655. Neither of these meters would be considered cheap. They are used my many in the industry, respected in the industry and are very accurate. Oh and no one needs a 1nm spectro in the field or to use on consumer grade TVs with their very course control set. You would know this if you knew anything about calibration.

Finally, you wondering.... I think you need to reread your posts in this thread and ask yourself why you chose to post such inaccurate information become combative when corrections are posted and also attempt to insult someone. Amateurish at best :)

Merry Christmas

#58 OFFLINE   D-Nice

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:03 PM

Just checked a 500's Guide against a 100's Guide and you certainly are right. There's a major difference in what you call "steps" (I would have called them rows). The 100 has a much more finished bevel between rows while the 500 has a straight gray line. If you stare at it long enough, you can just see a small bevel to the gray line.

I guess a better term to describe what the DirecTV engineers were attempting to emulate would have been gray ramp. On a calibrated display, the ramp, including the dividing lines, is brighter than on the HR24-500.

So, now I'm confused. Which one is better? :nono2:

Rich

The HR24-500 adheres more to the standards than the other models I listed OOTB. That does not mean the others models cannot be calibrated to the same standards.

#59 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 10:39 PM

Hmmmm, where to start.....

Let's see, how does one measure a DirecTV box??? I take it you don't know how to place test patterns on a USB stick or stream it over the network. Duh!


You have just inserted added more variables into the stream which have the ability to influence the outcome.

Bit depth..... which bit depth to send a display depends on the display itself. For instance 2012 Panasonics work best with a 4:4:4 8 bit signal. 2011 Panasonics are best with a 4:2:2 8 bit signal. Sony LEDs 4:4:4 8bit. Not one of them show a superior picture with 10bit and/or higher signal types which is no more than padding an 8 bit signal with zeros.



Clearly you know of calibration, not digital error aka digtial jitter and how it reduces a 16 bit CD down to 8-10 bits at time and reduces an 8 bit video down upwards of 40%.

Furthermore this has nothing to do with RGB output when the TV wants to see YCbPr over HDMI. If you have one of the few that can force the RGB input (which, again is 8 bit on the HR24-500) and the user knows to make sure that it is set for RGB in the user settings (which I would bet very few have that knowledge), then they can live with their 8 bit output from the HR24.

Accupel.... there is nothing wrong with the 4000 and its digital output. If you think it is, show me the data.


Might want to read the calibration forums about that - or speak to the people @ Accupel

Meter I use.... I use a Klein-10 in the field and it is referenced to a Photo Research 5nm PR-655. Neither of these meters would be considered cheap. They are used my many in the industry, respected in the industry and are very accurate. Oh and no one needs a 1nm spectro in the field or to use on consumer grade TVs with their very course control set. You would know this if you knew anything about calibration.


Interesting as the Photo Research units do not match the Minolta Spectroradiometers (CS2000/CS2000a) which are considered reference.

Furthermore, there are plenty of know issues with the Klein, also in the Calibrator's forums.

And while we are laying cards on the table, let's just admit the reason calibrators use the more inaccurate Klein unit is because it takes a measurement quicker than most Spectroradiometer and getting out of your house faster trumps using a more accurate meter.

Finally, you wondering.... I think you need to reread your posts in this thread and ask yourself why you chose to post such inaccurate information become combative when corrections are posted and also attempt to insult someone. Amateurish at best :)

Merry Christmas


Right back at ya.

Edited by SomeRandomIdiot, 25 December 2012 - 10:46 PM.


#60 OFFLINE   Kerry

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 11:10 PM

Both the hr 21 and hr 34 have better pix quailty than the hr24. The 24 smears low level detail,,,, like backgrounds,,,,,,, wood panneling in a house epsoide is one test I used and many others. It was the dvr. I sent the 24 with its better speed back and kept the 21 because of the better pix quailty. The 34 was also line the 21 with no difference with many video test done.




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