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HR24 vs HR34 better PQ?


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91 replies to this topic

#76 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

Not hating at all.

Digital is a wonderful medium when it works as expected.

Sony the world in the early 80s that 16bit 44.1k sampled digital audio was perfect - just like D-Nice in his statement that its only 1s and 0s. Those who used their ears instead of theory knew something was wrong.

10 years later it was finally measured that digital jitter was an issue in digital. Now digital jitter is accepted worldwide and measured.

Turned out that those 16bit 1s and 0s flying down a digital path worked fine - until the timing burped.

Same thing as an Interstate. You can have cars bumper to bumper with literally no space between them all travelling at 100 mph. However, the first car to fall to 99.999999 mph and you have a tremendous pile up.

And when that happens in the digital path, the 1s and 0s come crashing into each other. Turned out the 16 bit audio was reduced to 8-10bits (a reduction of 40%-50%) and the quality suffered greatly.

No difference in video. But as circuits are now made to try and reduce the issue as much as possible (and because of cheap circuits, you never prevent it).

So yes, giving a 10bit path gives some headroom.

However, as it turns out, this is a mute point, as testing over the weekend revealed that DirecTV boxes cannot even output YCbCr 4:2:2 10bit YCbCr. The output is YCbCr 4:4:4 8 bit, which one would think that an expert such as D-Nice should have known (despite arguing for 8bit, 10bit and higher), except he does not have the equipment to measure that.

Revealed a valuable lesson.

A building inspector might not be the best general contractor.
A Movie Reviewer might not be the Producer.
A School Teacher that can grade standardized test does not need to know the subject matter.

Lots I don't know. Some I do know.

However, I am at least smart enough to learn when I don't know.

Others might be wise to do the same (not looking at you).

I'm pretty confident in the earlier conversation what is right - and quite frankly, will not recommend D-Nice in the future to people that asked me about calibration, which I did prior (see my first response).

Unfortunately, he isn't smart enough to understand what he does not know about behind the scenes and his equipment limitations.

PS - the only way for Digital extraction to be perfect as you state above is with Error Correction. And there is no error correction in the HDMI chain.


You have been proven wrong numerous times by D-Nice and others in this thread. You're an anonymous person with no known credentials. D-Nice is an established and respected expert.
DTV = Digital Television

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#77 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 31 December 2012 - 11:28 PM

Very true. Do not let D-Nice's post count here fool you.

#78 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 06:08 AM

The HR24-500 uses RGB colorspace while YPbPr is the standard and what virtually every TV expects to see.

RGB 4:4:4 is 8 bit and YPbPr 4:2:2 is normally 10 bit, but can be 12 bit.

As thus, the YPbPr would have more detail (2 more bit of data 10 v 8).

So in that case, the HR34-700 at 10 bit YPbPr should look better than 8 bit RGB in the HR24-500.


Whether or not various DirecTV DVRs out 8, 10, 12 or even 16 bit video is sort of irrelevant. While 10 bit YPbPr has a theoretically more refined color palette than 8 bit RGB, I seriously doubt that an MPEG-4 image recompressed from an MPEG-2 source will have enough subtlety of color to take advantage of it.

Bottom line...if it looks good to you, that's all that matters.

Edited by Diana C, 01 January 2013 - 06:20 AM.
Clarified the phrasing

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#79 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:08 AM

Having a new TV calibrated is kinda criminal? How so? The point of calibration to see content as it was intended to be seen. If you spend good money on a new display, why would you not want it too look as good as it can? I just don't see the logic in being opposed to calibration.


So, you wouldn't mind if the next time you bought a brand new car, the last thing the salesman says is, "By the way, you'll need a tune-up and detailing immediately"? I'm not opposed to calibration if it's included in the price of the TV.

#80 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

You guys asnd girs sure do yak alot. It dont matter with the test equment disk and bla bla, what matters in this simple test is what you can see with the eye ball, or rather in this case cant see. It would take me all of 2 min to show you on your display the sofness and loss of detail on the 24 vs the 34 and 21. Its harder to see something thats not there vs something that is.ps if you call a xbr65hx929 a bad display O well. That kinda sums it up.
Proced govner LOL!


Might not want to apply for a proofreader's job.... :lol:

#81 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

Whether or not various DirecTV DVRs out 8, 10, 12 or even 16 bit video is sort of irrelevant. While 10 bit YPbPr has a theoretically more refined color palette than 8 bit RGB, I seriously doubt that an MPEG-4 image recompressed from an MPEG-2 source will have enough subtlety of color to take advantage of it.

Bottom line...if it looks good to you, that's all that matters.


Thanx,

Rich

#82 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

Calibration by Best Buy wouldn't count :)

I see it as something a bit more. It works fine out of the box (though I'd at least take it off vivid mode, etc.). But for the car analogy, I think it's more like, the car works fine off the lot, but there are experts out there that can tweak the fuel mixture etc to get even more performance or gas mileage.

The average person that has a TV in their living room might have a lesser reason to calibrate. But if its in a room where there is more control of lighting, seat placement etc, the benefits go up.

I've considered getting a Chad B. calibration, but never actually did it.

Edited by dpeters11, 01 January 2013 - 11:22 AM.


#83 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

Whether or not various DirecTV DVRs out 8, 10, 12 or even 16 bit video is sort of irrelevant. While 10 bit YPbPr has a theoretically more refined color palette than 8 bit RGB, I seriously doubt that an MPEG-4 image recompressed from an MPEG-2 source will have enough subtlety of color to take advantage of it.


Bingo! Even in still photography, total accuracy of color is overrated, except by ad agencies, professional photographers, and a few institutions. Far less important in moving pictures!

More important is sharpness, and lack of artifacts.
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#84 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

So, you wouldn't mind if the next time you bought a brand new car, the last thing the salesman says is, "By the way, you'll need a tune-up and detailing immediately"? I'm not opposed to calibration if it's included in the price of the TV.


I prefer to do it myself. Best hobby I've ever had. While it would be nice if they were 100% accurate out of the box, that just isn't realistic. If I'm spending $3,000 to $7,000 on a display/projector...I want to squeeze the best performance out of it.
DTV = Digital Television

#85 OFFLINE   lparsons21

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:18 PM

While I'm not spending that much on a big screen, I too like to get as much out of it as possible. And for us that don't want to sell the farm to get it all done, there is the Disney WOW disc that is more than good enough for the rest of us.

And the $20 or so it costs, beats the hell out of the price of getting a professional to do it.

That said, if I were buying at the top end of the price structure, I would seriously consider having it professionally calibrated.

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#86 OFFLINE   harperhometheater

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

....However, as it turns out, this is a mute point, as testing over the weekend revealed that DirecTV boxes cannot even output YCbCr 4:2:2 10bit YCbCr...


It may even be a "moot" point too! Guess that's something else you may have to learn that you don't know. ;)

Happy New Year everybody! :)
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#87 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:11 PM

...it was finally measured that digital jitter was an issue in digital. Now digital jitter is accepted worldwide and measured.

Turned out that those 16bit 1s and 0s flying down a digital path worked fine - until the timing burped...

I never claimed that jitter is not a factor, just not one that matters in digital transport of video. When the bits are so smeared time-wise that ones and zeroes can't be identified from each other, we are already way past the threshold of what can be decoded. This means that under that threshold, jitter is not that much an issue. It is also pretty much a non-issue because reclocking, which is available at jitter rates under this threshold, is pretty easy to do and eliminates jitter completely, by fully restoring the timing relationships between bits. And the act of decoding includes reclocking. Further, all DTV signals that you have ever seen are below this threshold for jitter, because any that are over that threshold can't be decoded.

Bottom line, it just does not matter.

...So yes, giving a 10bit path gives some headroom.

I would really love to hear an explanation of how this might be possible. An 8-bit signal, no matter how degraded it might become in transport, can't use those other two bits; there is nothing in those other two bits except zeroes. If you understood how digital works or read my earlier post, which explained why it is not possible, you would understand that. There is no analogy to a "wider pipe" here. Error correction would be the "wider pipe" analogy.

Lots I don't know. Some I do know.

...However, I am at least smart enough to learn when I don't know.

Well, brother, you sure could have fooled me. Your epic fail regarding headroom speaks volumes to the contrary.

...However, as it turns out, this is a mute point...

But you, unlike the other 99.99% of the English-speaking population, apparently don't know what "mute" means. Or "moot", for that matter. Not exactly a credit towards your credibility. I, on the other hand, do actually have credibility, at least in this field. Since I have been formally educated in, and get paid a lot to work with these issues directly, daily, and have for over 15 years, and have been a very successful major-network-employed Broadcast Engineer for longer than many on this forum have been out of diapers, and as is the requirement to be expert in something according to "Outliers", I have my "10,000 hours", many times over (the IQ north of 160 doesn't hurt, either).

You might have even noticed that I never even admit any of this until some random yahoo calls me out on it, because what I post should speak for itself and I am never comfortable trying to assume the mantle of expert or want people to think I might be lording it over them; I just want to post what I happen to know to be the truth and help people with questions get answers, which sometimes I even have. You, who literally may actually be "SomeRandomIdiot" by your own admission, don't have to accept any of that, as on the internet we are all anonymous and uncredentialed, at least officially. But then I am also quite happy to give D-Nice the benefit of the doubt; in calibration of a TV he could very likely run rings around me. You, maybe not so much.

the only way for Digital extraction to be perfect as you state above is with Error Correction. And there is no error correction in the HDMI chain.

Well, I did not state that. If there are no errors, there is no need for error correction, period. (and no need for "Error Correction" [sic], either)

Often, especially in DVB or ATSC delivery, there is a need. HDMI is very different. HDMI happens in a closed, isolated, interference free shielded cable that is less than a few meters long. It doesn't need error correction, which is why it was designed without it. Also completely beside any point made earlier by anyone in this thread.

Not hating at all.

Now that would be really hard to prove.

Edited by TomCat, 04 January 2013 - 09:29 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#88 OFFLINE   ErrorNXcellence

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:15 PM

Have used both no difference in PQ, more of a preference.

#89 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

I never claimed that jitter is not a factor, just not one that matters in digital transport of video. When the bits are so smeared time-wise that ones and zeroes can't be identified from each other, we are already way past the threshold of what can be decoded. This means that under that threshold, jitter is not that much an issue. It is also pretty much a non-issue because reclocking, which is available at jitter rates under this threshold, is pretty easy to do and eliminates jitter completely, by fully restoring the timing relationships between bits. And the act of decoding includes reclocking. Further, all DTV signals that you have ever seen are below this threshold for jitter, because any that are over that threshold can't be decoded.

Bottom line, it just does not matter.

I would really love to hear an explanation of how this might be possible. An 8-bit signal, no matter how degraded it might become in transport, can't use those other two bits; there is nothing in those other two bits except zeroes. If you understood how digital works or read my earlier post, which explained why it is not possible, you would understand that. There is no analogy to a "wider pipe" here. Error correction would be the "wider pipe" analogy.

Well, brother, you sure could have fooled me. Your epic fail regarding headroom speaks volumes to the contrary.

But you, unlike the other 99.99% of the English-speaking population, apparently don't know what "mute" means. Or "moot", for that matter. Not exactly a credit towards your credibility. I, on the other hand, do actually have credibility, at least in this field. Since I have been formally educated in, and get paid a lot to work with these issues directly, daily, and have for over 15 years, and have been a very successful major-network-employed Broadcast Engineer for longer than many on this forum have been out of diapers, and as is the requirement to be expert in something according to "Outliers", I have my "10,000 hours", many times over (the IQ north of 160 doesn't hurt, either).

You might have even noticed that I never even admit any of this until some random yahoo calls me out on it, because what I post should speak for itself and I am never comfortable trying to assume the mantle of expert or want people to think I might be lording it over them; I just want to post what I happen to know to be the truth and help people with questions get answers, which sometimes I even have. You, who literally may actually be "SomeRandomIdiot" by your own admission, don't have to accept any of that, as on the internet we are all anonymous and uncredentialed, at least officially. But then I am also quite happy to give D-Nice the benefit of the doubt; in calibration of a TV he could very likely run rings around me. You, maybe not so much.Well, I did not state that. If there are no errors, there is no need for error correction, period. (and no need for "Error Correction" [sic], either)

Often, especially in DVB or ATSC delivery, there is a need. HDMI is very different. HDMI happens in a closed, isolated, interference free shielded cable that is less than a few meters long. It doesn't need error correction, which is why it was designed without it. Also completely beside any point made earlier by anyone in this thread.


Now that would be really hard to prove.


Now, THAT was a helluva post, Tom. Very well put!

Rich

#90 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

Have used both no difference in PQ, more of a preference.


Yeah, more of a subjective thing. The eye sees what the eye sees and if you're satisfied with that, it should be enough. I have a vision of paying someone hundreds of dollars to calibrate one of my plasmas and having him tell me that I'll get used to the dim picture in 6 or 7 weeks. Actually tried a calibration disk that told me that (no, I don't remember which one, it was awhile ago and I can't supply a link or a picture) after I spent quite a bit of time "calibrating" a plasma. Didn't take me any time to get used to it, went right back to my original settings and was satisfied again.

Rich

#91 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

Absolute color fidelity is way overrated in moving pictures. Close enough is fine, as in hand grenades. And, no, yellow grass is not close....unless it is, uh, yellow grass....

Saturation and luminance are more important to most viewers.
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#92 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

Absolute color fidelity is way overrated in moving pictures. Close enough is fine, as in hand grenades. And, no, yellow grass is not close....unless it is, uh, yellow grass....


Ah, the dreaded Zoysia grass, yellow in winter, green in the summer. One of the homes in our court has that and it's started to take over the next lawn. Figure it will take a long time to get to me.

Saturation and luminance are more important to most viewers.


Had to look up luminance in my dictionary, my spellchecker says it's not a word. Dictionary says, in part, it controls the brightness of a TV. Saturation is defined as: (esp. in photography) The intensity of a color, expressed as the degree to which it differs from white.

Figured if I had to look them up, others might be interested.

Rich




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