Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

HR24 vs HR34 better PQ?


  • Please log in to reply
91 replies to this topic

#81 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,688 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

Whether or not various DirecTV DVRs out 8, 10, 12 or even 16 bit video is sort of irrelevant. While 10 bit YPbPr has a theoretically more refined color palette than 8 bit RGB, I seriously doubt that an MPEG-4 image recompressed from an MPEG-2 source will have enough subtlety of color to take advantage of it.

Bottom line...if it looks good to you, that's all that matters.


Thanx,

Rich

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#82 OFFLINE   dpeters11

dpeters11

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 12,995 posts
  • LocationCincinnati
Joined: May 30, 2007

Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

Calibration by Best Buy wouldn't count :)

I see it as something a bit more. It works fine out of the box (though I'd at least take it off vivid mode, etc.). But for the car analogy, I think it's more like, the car works fine off the lot, but there are experts out there that can tweak the fuel mixture etc to get even more performance or gas mileage.

The average person that has a TV in their living room might have a lesser reason to calibrate. But if its in a room where there is more control of lighting, seat placement etc, the benefits go up.

I've considered getting a Chad B. calibration, but never actually did it.

Edited by dpeters11, 01 January 2013 - 11:22 AM.


#83 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Fortuna! Fameux des Halles

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 12,345 posts
  • LocationWinters, California
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 01 January 2013 - 11:45 AM

Whether or not various DirecTV DVRs out 8, 10, 12 or even 16 bit video is sort of irrelevant. While 10 bit YPbPr has a theoretically more refined color palette than 8 bit RGB, I seriously doubt that an MPEG-4 image recompressed from an MPEG-2 source will have enough subtlety of color to take advantage of it.


Bingo! Even in still photography, total accuracy of color is overrated, except by ad agencies, professional photographers, and a few institutions. Far less important in moving pictures!

More important is sharpness, and lack of artifacts.
"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#84 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

Hoosier205

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 6,596 posts
Joined: Sep 03, 2007

Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

So, you wouldn't mind if the next time you bought a brand new car, the last thing the salesman says is, "By the way, you'll need a tune-up and detailing immediately"? I'm not opposed to calibration if it's included in the price of the TV.


I prefer to do it myself. Best hobby I've ever had. While it would be nice if they were 100% accurate out of the box, that just isn't realistic. If I'm spending $3,000 to $7,000 on a display/projector...I want to squeeze the best performance out of it.
DTV = Digital Television

#85 OFFLINE   lparsons21

lparsons21

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 3,280 posts
  • LocationHerrin, IL
Joined: Mar 04, 2006

Posted 01 January 2013 - 02:18 PM

While I'm not spending that much on a big screen, I too like to get as much out of it as possible. And for us that don't want to sell the farm to get it all done, there is the Disney WOW disc that is more than good enough for the rest of us.

And the $20 or so it costs, beats the hell out of the price of getting a professional to do it.

That said, if I were buying at the top end of the price structure, I would seriously consider having it professionally calibrated.

Lloyd
Receiver : DirecTV Genie HR44-700, Dish Hopper w/Sling & Super Joey
HDTV : Mitsi WD-73742 73" 3D DLP
Surround: Denon AVR-2113ci 7.1 Setup

 


#86 OFFLINE   harperhometheater

harperhometheater

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 181 posts
Joined: Aug 30, 2012

Posted 01 January 2013 - 05:39 PM

....However, as it turns out, this is a mute point, as testing over the weekend revealed that DirecTV boxes cannot even output YCbCr 4:2:2 10bit YCbCr...


It may even be a "moot" point too! Guess that's something else you may have to learn that you don't know. ;)

Happy New Year everybody! :)
HarperVision, LLC
ISF Calibrations, Installations,
Repairs & Consultations

#87 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Registered
  • 3,582 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:11 PM

...it was finally measured that digital jitter was an issue in digital. Now digital jitter is accepted worldwide and measured.

Turned out that those 16bit 1s and 0s flying down a digital path worked fine - until the timing burped...

I never claimed that jitter is not a factor, just not one that matters in digital transport of video. When the bits are so smeared time-wise that ones and zeroes can't be identified from each other, we are already way past the threshold of what can be decoded. This means that under that threshold, jitter is not that much an issue. It is also pretty much a non-issue because reclocking, which is available at jitter rates under this threshold, is pretty easy to do and eliminates jitter completely, by fully restoring the timing relationships between bits. And the act of decoding includes reclocking. Further, all DTV signals that you have ever seen are below this threshold for jitter, because any that are over that threshold can't be decoded.

Bottom line, it just does not matter.

...So yes, giving a 10bit path gives some headroom.

I would really love to hear an explanation of how this might be possible. An 8-bit signal, no matter how degraded it might become in transport, can't use those other two bits; there is nothing in those other two bits except zeroes. If you understood how digital works or read my earlier post, which explained why it is not possible, you would understand that. There is no analogy to a "wider pipe" here. Error correction would be the "wider pipe" analogy.

Lots I don't know. Some I do know.

...However, I am at least smart enough to learn when I don't know.

Well, brother, you sure could have fooled me. Your epic fail regarding headroom speaks volumes to the contrary.

...However, as it turns out, this is a mute point...

But you, unlike the other 99.99% of the English-speaking population, apparently don't know what "mute" means. Or "moot", for that matter. Not exactly a credit towards your credibility. I, on the other hand, do actually have credibility, at least in this field. Since I have been formally educated in, and get paid a lot to work with these issues directly, daily, and have for over 15 years, and have been a very successful major-network-employed Broadcast Engineer for longer than many on this forum have been out of diapers, and as is the requirement to be expert in something according to "Outliers", I have my "10,000 hours", many times over (the IQ north of 160 doesn't hurt, either).

You might have even noticed that I never even admit any of this until some random yahoo calls me out on it, because what I post should speak for itself and I am never comfortable trying to assume the mantle of expert or want people to think I might be lording it over them; I just want to post what I happen to know to be the truth and help people with questions get answers, which sometimes I even have. You, who literally may actually be "SomeRandomIdiot" by your own admission, don't have to accept any of that, as on the internet we are all anonymous and uncredentialed, at least officially. But then I am also quite happy to give D-Nice the benefit of the doubt; in calibration of a TV he could very likely run rings around me. You, maybe not so much.

the only way for Digital extraction to be perfect as you state above is with Error Correction. And there is no error correction in the HDMI chain.

Well, I did not state that. If there are no errors, there is no need for error correction, period. (and no need for "Error Correction" [sic], either)

Often, especially in DVB or ATSC delivery, there is a need. HDMI is very different. HDMI happens in a closed, isolated, interference free shielded cable that is less than a few meters long. It doesn't need error correction, which is why it was designed without it. Also completely beside any point made earlier by anyone in this thread.

Not hating at all.

Now that would be really hard to prove.

Edited by TomCat, 04 January 2013 - 09:29 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#88 OFFLINE   ErrorNXcellence

ErrorNXcellence

    New Member

  • Registered
  • 3 posts
Joined: Sep 15, 2011

Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:15 PM

Have used both no difference in PQ, more of a preference.

#89 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,688 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

I never claimed that jitter is not a factor, just not one that matters in digital transport of video. When the bits are so smeared time-wise that ones and zeroes can't be identified from each other, we are already way past the threshold of what can be decoded. This means that under that threshold, jitter is not that much an issue. It is also pretty much a non-issue because reclocking, which is available at jitter rates under this threshold, is pretty easy to do and eliminates jitter completely, by fully restoring the timing relationships between bits. And the act of decoding includes reclocking. Further, all DTV signals that you have ever seen are below this threshold for jitter, because any that are over that threshold can't be decoded.

Bottom line, it just does not matter.

I would really love to hear an explanation of how this might be possible. An 8-bit signal, no matter how degraded it might become in transport, can't use those other two bits; there is nothing in those other two bits except zeroes. If you understood how digital works or read my earlier post, which explained why it is not possible, you would understand that. There is no analogy to a "wider pipe" here. Error correction would be the "wider pipe" analogy.

Well, brother, you sure could have fooled me. Your epic fail regarding headroom speaks volumes to the contrary.

But you, unlike the other 99.99% of the English-speaking population, apparently don't know what "mute" means. Or "moot", for that matter. Not exactly a credit towards your credibility. I, on the other hand, do actually have credibility, at least in this field. Since I have been formally educated in, and get paid a lot to work with these issues directly, daily, and have for over 15 years, and have been a very successful major-network-employed Broadcast Engineer for longer than many on this forum have been out of diapers, and as is the requirement to be expert in something according to "Outliers", I have my "10,000 hours", many times over (the IQ north of 160 doesn't hurt, either).

You might have even noticed that I never even admit any of this until some random yahoo calls me out on it, because what I post should speak for itself and I am never comfortable trying to assume the mantle of expert or want people to think I might be lording it over them; I just want to post what I happen to know to be the truth and help people with questions get answers, which sometimes I even have. You, who literally may actually be "SomeRandomIdiot" by your own admission, don't have to accept any of that, as on the internet we are all anonymous and uncredentialed, at least officially. But then I am also quite happy to give D-Nice the benefit of the doubt; in calibration of a TV he could very likely run rings around me. You, maybe not so much.Well, I did not state that. If there are no errors, there is no need for error correction, period. (and no need for "Error Correction" [sic], either)

Often, especially in DVB or ATSC delivery, there is a need. HDMI is very different. HDMI happens in a closed, isolated, interference free shielded cable that is less than a few meters long. It doesn't need error correction, which is why it was designed without it. Also completely beside any point made earlier by anyone in this thread.


Now that would be really hard to prove.


Now, THAT was a helluva post, Tom. Very well put!

Rich

#90 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,688 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:23 AM

Have used both no difference in PQ, more of a preference.


Yeah, more of a subjective thing. The eye sees what the eye sees and if you're satisfied with that, it should be enough. I have a vision of paying someone hundreds of dollars to calibrate one of my plasmas and having him tell me that I'll get used to the dim picture in 6 or 7 weeks. Actually tried a calibration disk that told me that (no, I don't remember which one, it was awhile ago and I can't supply a link or a picture) after I spent quite a bit of time "calibrating" a plasma. Didn't take me any time to get used to it, went right back to my original settings and was satisfied again.

Rich

#91 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Fortuna! Fameux des Halles

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 12,345 posts
  • LocationWinters, California
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 05 January 2013 - 11:54 AM

Absolute color fidelity is way overrated in moving pictures. Close enough is fine, as in hand grenades. And, no, yellow grass is not close....unless it is, uh, yellow grass....

Saturation and luminance are more important to most viewers.
"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#92 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,688 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 05 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

Absolute color fidelity is way overrated in moving pictures. Close enough is fine, as in hand grenades. And, no, yellow grass is not close....unless it is, uh, yellow grass....


Ah, the dreaded Zoysia grass, yellow in winter, green in the summer. One of the homes in our court has that and it's started to take over the next lawn. Figure it will take a long time to get to me.

Saturation and luminance are more important to most viewers.


Had to look up luminance in my dictionary, my spellchecker says it's not a word. Dictionary says, in part, it controls the brightness of a TV. Saturation is defined as: (esp. in photography) The intensity of a color, expressed as the degree to which it differs from white.

Figured if I had to look them up, others might be interested.

Rich




Protected By... spam firewall...And...