Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
* * * * * 6 votes

Transponder Maps: Domestic ~ Data 8/24/2016


  • Please log in to reply
1839 replies to this topic

#1826 OFFLINE   tomspeer46

tomspeer46

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 583 posts
  • LocationEastern NC and Adirondack Mtns, NY
Joined: Nov 17, 2011

Posted 18 August 2016 - 03:09 PM

The following is pure speculation:

For those of us wondering about all the "NA"  entries in the signal strength displays for D14, consider this:  We know the DTV expects to use "bonded transponders" for 4K transmission. As I understand it, that is two transponders carrying a single data stream with twice the bandwidth of a single transponder.  Many have made the assumption that these transponders would be on adjacent frequencies.  What if they are on the same frequency, with opposite polarity?

If there is one set of tuning parameters for the bonded transponder, only varying in polarity, the receiver doesn't need additional tuning info for the second transponder.  The SS display shows NA when there is no tuning info for a transponder, so maybe the even numbered TPNs on 99ca that show NA will eventually be bonded with the odd number TPN on the same frequency, and will never show up on the SS display.  Just a thought.


  • Gary Toma likes this

The curious otter is around, but hasn't been seen for a while.  

HR44-200, HR24-500, SWM13 LNB
 


...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#1827 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 21,159 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 19 August 2016 - 12:41 AM

seem to me, using SWiM access to tpn's band does not req any correlation between freq/pol/etc: we shall see it when DTV will start using bonding tpns


Sent from my Dell Lattitude D633  using FireFox under Windows 5.1


#1828 OFFLINE   tomspeer46

tomspeer46

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 583 posts
  • LocationEastern NC and Adirondack Mtns, NY
Joined: Nov 17, 2011

Posted 19 August 2016 - 07:00 AM

What is technically required is one thing.  How they design the system to work logically is another,  I think they would make it as simple as possible.  The guide data only has room for one TID for a channel to access the tuning data.  If that one TID could provide all of the information to tune to two bonded transponders, it  would make it simpler.

 

I would think that the one technical requirement is that the two transponders have the exact same data rate, therefore the same FEC ratio.


The curious otter is around, but hasn't been seen for a while.  

HR44-200, HR24-500, SWM13 LNB
 


#1829 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 6,261 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 19 August 2016 - 10:49 AM

The following is pure speculation:

For those of us wondering about all the "NA"  entries in the signal strength displays for D14, consider this:  We know the DTV expects to use "bonded transponders" for 4K transmission. As I understand it, that is two transponders carrying a single data stream with twice the bandwidth of a single transponder.  Many have made the assumption that these transponders would be on adjacent frequencies.  What if they are on the same frequency, with opposite polarity?

If there is one set of tuning parameters for the bonded transponder, only varying in polarity, the receiver doesn't need additional tuning info for the second transponder.  The SS display shows NA when there is no tuning info for a transponder, so maybe the even numbered TPNs on 99ca that show NA will eventually be bonded with the odd number TPN on the same frequency, and will never show up on the SS display.  Just a thought.

 

I suggested that back when D14 launched and we first saw those NA transponders, but I'm now skeptical of that for several reasons:

 

1) They won't need to actually use bonded transponders for years, not until there are so many 4K channels that using one transponder per channel begins to fill up reverse band.

2) They plan to use reverse band for 4K in the long run, and thus that's where bonding will take place. Doesn't mean they can't test in it Ka first, but since they won't need it for some time what's the rush to test it now when they have bigger fish to fry like working out the kinks with 4K delivery.

3) If they have been doing such tests, they've managed to keep it unusually quiet - nothing visible in the weekly transponder data, nor even a whisper from people involved in testing. That doesn't prove they haven't been doing such tests, but usually there are some hints to found somewhere.

 

Using the same frequency with opposite polarities makes the most sense just from a simplicity standpoint, but your point about tuning info means doing it like that may be the only logical choice. So having the even transponders be the 'second' in the pair does make sense. If so - the even N/As on D14 make sense, but why would tpn 9 also be N/A?


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL, 3xSWM16; 23 H20-100, 7 H24-700/AM21


#1830 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 21,159 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 19 August 2016 - 12:03 PM

it is just guessing - how the bonding will happen ...

 

I recall there was pseudo-bonding ch info and second tpn's info was not taken from NIT - not an index to it, but full set of parameters include FEC


Edited by P Smith, 19 August 2016 - 12:04 PM.

Sent from my Dell Lattitude D633  using FireFox under Windows 5.1


#1831 OFFLINE   tomspeer46

tomspeer46

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 583 posts
  • LocationEastern NC and Adirondack Mtns, NY
Joined: Nov 17, 2011

Posted 20 August 2016 - 06:30 PM

Peter, you are right.  It is just guessing. "Speculation" as I called it.  But it is an educated guess, based on the transponders they have defined on D14, and decades of working on engineering teams doing hardware/software integration, and knowing how engineers design such systems.  If they can make it simpler, they will, in most cases.  I don't know if my prediction is right, but I give it a darn good chance.


The curious otter is around, but hasn't been seen for a while.  

HR44-200, HR24-500, SWM13 LNB
 


#1832 OFFLINE   P Smith

P Smith

    Mr. FixAnything

  • Registered
  • 21,159 posts
  • LocationMediterranean Sea
Joined: Jul 25, 2002

Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:05 AM

I'm doing my own guessing as same sort of EE with different [own] experience,

so for simplification sake I would say - they would use "SDT" record of secondary bonded tpn with whenever parameters as many different real conditions would dictate doesn't use 'same freq/diff pol' or next freq tpn


Sent from my Dell Lattitude D633  using FireFox under Windows 5.1


#1833 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 6,261 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 21 August 2016 - 12:57 AM

I'm doing my own guessing as same sort of EE with different [own] experience,

so for simplification sake I would say - they would use "SDT" record of secondary bonded tpn with whenever parameters as many different real conditions would dictate doesn't use 'same freq/diff pol' or next freq tpn

 

I'm curious, what conditions would dictate not using the same frequency and opposite polarity? If there is momentary/spurious RF interference at a given frequency you would WANT to be using that frequency for both halves of a bonded pair, because once you've lost one half the other half is pointless anyway.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL, 3xSWM16; 23 H20-100, 7 H24-700/AM21


#1834 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 44,402 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 21 August 2016 - 05:35 AM

I'm curious, what conditions would dictate not using the same frequency and opposite polarity?

Massive interference?

The polarity shift helps adjacent transponders not interfere with each other. It also helps with adjacent satellite slots. Same frequency on the same satellite on opposite polarity? That isn't going to work well.


Once there is a confirmed bonded transponder perhaps a deep dive into the descriptors will help figure out how DIRECTV is describing that transponder pair to the receiver. The easiest way to figure out what the table data means is to know the answer you are looking for when pouring through "unknown" parts of the data.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#1835 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 6,925 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 21 August 2016 - 10:28 AM



Massive interference?

The polarity shift helps adjacent transponders not interfere with each other. It also helps with adjacent satellite slots. Same frequency on the same satellite on opposite polarity? That isn't going to work well. ...


Oh ...

I always thought and told others (like while tutoring way back in college) opposite polarizations for satellite were used to allow co-channel or overlaping channel operation within the satellite's up/downlink bandwidth. Thus maximizing the efficiency of their allocated bandwidth. A very precious and finite resource when you're talking about satellite transmission.

Hope I didn't tell them wrong all those years ...



Sent from my SGH-M819N using Tapatalk

DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#1836 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 6,261 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 21 August 2016 - 11:22 AM

Massive interference?

The polarity shift helps adjacent transponders not interfere with each other. It also helps with adjacent satellite slots. Same frequency on the same satellite on opposite polarity? That isn't going to work well.

 

It sounds like you're describing how how Ku transponders are laid out, where you have transponder 1 at 12.224 GHz LHCP, transponder 2 at 12.239 GHz RHCP, transponder 3 at 12.253 GHz LHCP and so on. Directv's Ka and reverse band use identical frequencies for LHCP and RHCP, so for reverse band you have transponder 1 at 17.33 GHz LHCP, transponder 2 ALSO at 17.33 GHz RHCP, transponder 3 at 17.73 GHz LHCP, and so on.

 

They're broadcasting the "same frequency on the same satellite at opposite polarity" already, and have been doing so for over 10 years now, so I think it is proven to work well :) Perhaps in the past what you're suggesting was true, and was the original reason behind Ku's stair-step frequency/polarity plan.

 

Since Directv is going to be broadcasting on identical frequencies with opposite polarities anyway, the question that drives the choice of bonding pairs (from an interference perspective) is: in the event of something that interferes enough to cause signal loss, can only specific frequencies or only specific polarities be affected? Given that the only thing that causes signal loss Directv really has to worry about is rain fade, which will affect all reverse band frequencies and polarities if it affects any, there doesn't seem to be any reason to prefer one method of pairing bonded transponders over another from an interference standpoint. Due to SWM, there isn't any reason to prefer one method over another from the customer end.

 

So it seems to me the choice will come down to whatever makes it easier for Directv on the delivery end. Whether that's identical frequencies / opposite polarities, some other fixed assignment strategy, or bonding pairs that are flexible and adjusted from time to time for reasons only they know, I have no idea.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL, 3xSWM16; 23 H20-100, 7 H24-700/AM21


#1837 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

Gary Toma

    UNIX

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,273 posts
Joined: Mar 22, 2006

Posted 24 August 2016 - 02:43 PM

Doctor J Analysis of the 8/24/2016 Domestic Data

 

LOCAL INTO LOCAL

New HD Channel Added
11 WUCW 23 20 D11 @99W 99S 235 1020 118 A1B7 34425 Mankato, MN WUCW 23 A3 HD Virtual

 

Channels Removed
14 WDAZ 8 19 D12 @103W 103S 186 1030 66 A1B7 52242 Fargo, ND WDAZ ABC 8 A3 HD
3 WDAZ 8 29 D7S @119W 119 028 001E 66 R20 13646 Fargo, ND WDAZ ABC 8 SD


ON-DEMAND
38 On-Demand *Test Channels Added to Network 40971.  Presently only Networks 40967 and 40973 are used for in-service On-Demand channels.

 

LIL Notes_0 documentation is extended through market 85 this week.

 




#1838 OFFLINE   tomspeer46

tomspeer46

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 583 posts
  • LocationEastern NC and Adirondack Mtns, NY
Joined: Nov 17, 2011

Posted 24 August 2016 - 06:29 PM

Channel 349, NEWSX (NEWSMAX) on Net 0, TID 8, PID 0014 was also removed.


The curious otter is around, but hasn't been seen for a while.  

HR44-200, HR24-500, SWM13 LNB
 


#1839 OFFLINE   AngryManMLS

AngryManMLS

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 247 posts
  • LocationMN
Joined: Jan 30, 2014

Posted 27 August 2016 - 08:08 AM

What happened to One World Sports being added?



#1840 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

Gary Toma

    UNIX

  • Topic Starter
  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,273 posts
Joined: Mar 22, 2006

Posted 27 August 2016 - 10:52 AM

What happened to One World Sports being added?


OWS is still shown in *Test mode. It hasn't gone away, but just has not gone active.

You can track all the items in various *Test and Offline modes by looking through the 'Hybrid' tab of the Weekly TPN Map Excel.
  • AngryManMLS likes this





Protected By... spam firewall...And...