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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Transponder Maps: Domestic & DLA ~ Data Refresh 3/4/2015


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#251 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 04:24 PM

Doctor J Comments for the 12/18/2013 Data:

 

 

 

 

ADD ONE *TEST HD LIL Channel

MKT 168 NET 679 San Diego, CA

*KBNT 25    679   19    142   1100  14    168   A3 San Diego 25 KBNT UNI

Hummm ...

 

That's one of the main local spotbeam transponders serving the L.A. market.

 

At first I worried about crowding degrading PQ for our locals on that transponder, but I see its currently only carrying 5 HD channels and 1 MPEG-4 SD one (KLCS 58-2) for L.A., so I guess there's enough room. :)


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#252 OFFLINE   Go Beavs

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:01 PM

Hummm ...

 

That's one of the main local spotbeam transponders serving the L.A. market.

 

At first I worried about crowding degrading PQ for our locals on that transponder, but I see its currently only carrying 5 HD channels and 1 MPEG-4 SD one (KLCS 58-2) for L.A., so I guess there's enough room. :)

 

That's nothing. Portland, OR has nine! :eek:

 

They must be doing alright with their new encoders because all the stations look pretty good to me.


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#253 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:02 PM

Hummm ...

 

That's one of the main local spotbeam transponders serving the L.A. market.

 

At first I worried about crowding degrading PQ for our locals on that transponder, but I see its currently only carrying 5 HD channels and 1 MPEG-4 SD one (KLCS 58-2) for L.A., so I guess there's enough room. :)

I think it's a time to pass to you a knowledge how to measure bitrates for any channel ...

Grab a Skywalker-3 from Genpix, install it, then check with 101W, after that we will continue ;)


Edited by P Smith, 19 December 2013 - 05:03 PM.


#254 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 05:10 PM

Sorry - but I still do not have a valid answer for you.  Every spec of data we have says that your Net 14 locals are on TPN 3.  Yet your signal strength presentation clearly indicates your local spot beam must be from TPN 4.

 

You have not been forgotten.  :)

Mr. UNIX guru - I wouldn't worry about the LOGICAL TPN# assignment.

 

The screen of TPN/SAT/SS designed for us, humans.

DVR/receivers FW/OS doesn't operate by TPN#, it use only "TID" ie 'frequency_index' and network# (as you aware from message.log).

 

If some SW coder make mistake in that matrix [TID->TPN] it would confuse us, only.



#255 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:10 PM

That's nothing. Portland, OR has nine! :eek:

 

They must be doing alright with their new encoders because all the stations look pretty good to me.

Yeah I know, I remember;

 

My alleged "worry" in that post was meant as more tongue-in-cheek than anything. :)

 

Though I still can't imagine 9 HD locals on one spotbeam transponder without going to 8-PSK modulation.

 

Were you ever able to confirm the digital modulation level used on this transponder (#21 on 103s) in your market?

 

Also Beavs, why are the local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, the MNT, and PBS outlets for the Portland market still showing as duplicated in the map with virtual channels of like network outlets (on tps. 15 and 23 of 103s) imported from Boise, ID.?    


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#256 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:54 PM

Yeah I know, I remember;

 

My alleged "worry" in that post was meant as more tongue-in-cheek than anything. :)

 

Though I still can't imagine 9 HD locals on one spotbeam transponder without going to 8-PSK modulation.

 

Were you ever able to confirm the digital modulation level used on this transponder (#21 on 103s) in your market?

 

Also Beavs, why are the local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, the MNT, and PBS outlets for the Portland market still showing as duplicated in the map with virtual channels of like network outlets (on tps. 15 and 23 of 103s) imported from Boise, ID.?    

The parameter is defined in system tables and well known for all tpns on all sats. As I posted above - take SW-3 card and you'll get all the info on the fly.



#257 OFFLINE   Go Beavs

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 01:57 PM

Yeah I know, I remember;
 
My alleged "worry" in that post was meant as more tongue-in-cheek than anything. :)
 
Though I still can't imagine 9 HD locals on one spotbeam transponder without going to 8-PSK modulation.
 
Were you ever able to confirm the digital modulation level used on this transponder (#21 on 103s) in your market?


The only confirmation of the modulation scheme was P. Smith's post from last year trying to get a signal lock: http://www.dbstalk.c...-4#entry2997724

It was using QPSK 4/5 at that time but I have no way of confirming that.
 

Also Beavs, why are the local ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, the MNT, and PBS outlets for the Portland market still showing as duplicated in the map with virtual channels of like network outlets (on tps. 15 and 23 of 103s) imported from Boise, ID.?


As I understand it, the reason for the Boise mirrors in the Portland market is because parts of the state (Grant county) can get Boise locals because they're considered significantly viewed channels. Living in SW Washington, I have no access to those. Here's Dr J.'s explanation from a couple years ago. http://www.dbstalk.c...0/#entry2303853

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#258 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 10:43 AM

Sorry - but I still do not have a valid answer for you.  Every spec of data we have says that your Net 14 locals are on TPN 3.  Yet your signal strength presentation clearly indicates your local spot beam must be from TPN 4.

 

You have not been forgotten.  :)

Forgot to remind about SHEF - just general rule:

 

if you see discrepancy in TID-TPN conversion, use SHEF cmd to verify your source. Mean, the reported person who are living in particular SB footprint must get more info by using SHEF cmd. It's very easy process to anyone who are posting here - utilizing the same Internet browser and full description how to do that posted here.



#259 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:04 PM

The parameter is defined in system tables and well known for all tpns on all sats. As I posted above - take SW-3 card and you'll get all the info on the fly.

Well OK P. Smith;

 

But I didn't know the information about modulation level and FEC for a given transponder were well known and in the system tables, particularly so for spotbeam tps. I thought you needed a SA and DVB capture card for that information, which for the spotbeams mean you had to be located in that market to get within the footprint to measure it.  

 

However, since they are well known and in the system tables, to save a little time, can you tell us what is the modulation level and FEC for Beav's Portland SB transponder #21 of beam A4BC a 103s? :)

 

And BTW, out of curiosity what's the mod. level and FEC reading for my LA. market?

 

Local Ka/MPEG-4 tps. here are 19, of beam A1BB, and 21, 22 of beam A4BB, all at 103s.


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#260 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:12 PM

Forgot to remind about SHEF - just general rule:

 

if you see discrepancy in TID-TPN conversion, use SHEF cmd to verify your source. Mean, the reported person who are living in particular SB footprint must get more info by using SHEF cmd. It's very easy process to anyone who are posting here - utilizing the same Internet browser and full description how to do that posted here.

What more will the SHEF command tell us regarding this issue other than maybe a confirmation of the TID?

 

And even then since the poster's locals are on one of the Spaceways, you still need the special TID-->TPN code matrix for the SWs in order to determine what the actual transponder is don't you? 


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#261 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 01:30 PM

@HoTat2:

a) that would be call for Gary :)

b1) it would tell us TID and SS at least for the particular channel ... and some add info

b2) yes ... see also post#254



#262 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 21 December 2013 - 10:29 PM

To eliminate lots of confusion:  Post #103 in this thread provides the keys to breaking down the SHEF response from a queried receiver for a given channel.  However, the field labeled as 'transponder' is not correct, that field should be named TID because it actually provides the TID or frequency index value of the channel in question.




#263 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 11:55 AM

To eliminate lots of confusion:  Post #103 in this thread provides the keys to breaking down the SHEF response from a queried receiver for a given channel.  However, the field labeled as 'transponder' is not correct, that field should be named TID because it actually provides the TID or frequency index value of the channel in question.

Thanks for referencing my old post there for the benefit of others clarity and edification Gary. :)

 

And these days I realize of course my definition of the TID was incorrect back then, and will edit my post there accordingly.

 

But before I do, to be honest I'm still somewhat confused on what "TID" really stands for even at this late date.

 

I mean those (which are admittedly chiefly of the FTA crowd) on LyngSat call their listing of "TID" a "Transponder ID"

 

You once referred to it as a "Table Index" value which acts as a pointer to other internal tables which in turn can ultimately identify the host satellite.

 

And now its a "Frequency Index." value  :confused:

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Also Gary, if I'm understanding P. Smith correctly, your records of the system tables also gives the listings of the modulation levels (i.e. QPSK or 8-PSK) and FEC rates for the signals carried on all transponders? 

 

I'd certainly be interested in knowing those or else seeing them regularly published as LyngSat's listings on the DIRECTV birds are woefully incomplete. :)    


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#264 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 12:14 PM

Christian hesitate to post DTV's info at his site [Lyngsat]  because no contributors, no cross verification ...



#265 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 09:37 PM

HoTat2,

 

Please don’t trip over the synonyms.  They are all talking about the same thing:

 

 

TID  -  Transponder Identifier or Transponder Identity Descriptor

 

TID  -  a value or pointer or ‘Table Index’ to a transponder

 

TID  - Transponder Frequency Index – a pointer or index into a transponder frequency table

 

 

Of all these, the frequency index is perhaps the most descriptive definition, just doesn’t provide a catchy mnemonic…

 

 




#266 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 03:18 AM

HoTat2,

 

Please don’t trip over the synonyms.  They are all talking about the same thing:

 

 

TID  -  Transponder Identifier or Transponder Identity Descriptor

 

TID  -  a value or pointer or ‘Table Index’ to a transponder

 

TID  - Transponder Frequency Index – a pointer or index into a transponder frequency table

 

 

Of all these, the frequency index is perhaps the most descriptive definition, just doesn’t provide a catchy mnemonic…

OK, thanks Gary;

 

Will update my old post #103.

 

Any response to my second question there earlier?

 

 

 ... if I'm understanding P. Smith correctly, your records of the system tables also gives the listings of the modulation levels (i.e. QPSK or 8-PSK) and FEC rates for the signals carried on all transponders? 

 

I'd certainly be interested in knowing those or else seeing them regularly published as LyngSat's listings on the DIRECTV birds are woefully incomplete.

 


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#267 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 12:27 PM

RFQ:

- we have our STB [DVR] with a few screens what display Logical TPN## and its current signal's value [0...100] for each Net (not just for each satellite);

- we have FCC documents filled by DTV with information about transponders: frequencies, polarity and TPN Numbers [Logical (!)].

 

Now a body of RFQ: do we have a confidence in screen's TPN## as numbers in FCC documents ?

 

 

[Perhaps HoTat2 could reveal it ? ;)]



#268 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 02:30 PM

Doctor J Comments for the 12/25/2013 Data

 

 

 

REMOVE ONE HD *TEST LIL Channel
MKT 104 NET 615 Lafayette, LA
*KLWB    50    615    20    201    1060    11    104    A3 Lafayette, LA 50 KLWB IND

REMOVE ONE SD LIL Channel
MKT 128 NET 639 Mobile, AL - Pensacola, FL
WPAN    53    639     31     30     0078    3     128    Mobile-Pensacola WPAN 53 IND




#269 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 03:10 PM

A cue to RFQ: 110W has virtual tpn numbers : 8, 10, 12. That would push you re-think what we [users] see on Signal Level's screens ? Real TPN## or ?



#270 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 04:12 PM

A cue to RFQ: 110W has virtual tpn numbers : 8, 10, 12. That would push you re-think what we [users] see on Signal Level's screens ? Real TPN## or ?

 

Since the 110W and 119W tpns are merged into the same 500 MHz band, they'd need some separation. Whatever the actual tpn numbers, there can't be any overlap or near overlap between the frequencies coming from 110W and 119W. The bandpass filter on them cannot be the 500 MHz width it is on Ku from 101.


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#271 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 04:30 PM

you missed a core of the RFQ: establish or disprove a link between native [FCC docs] transponder's numbers and these TPN## at signal level screens



#272 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 12:15 AM

I guess I'm not sure what you're looking for as "proof". Why are the FCC filings showing tpns 28 / 30 / 32 and the respective frequencies matching those tpns assigned to Directv for 110, and showing tpns 22 - 32 and the respective frequencies (at least for the spots on 23 / 25 / 29 / 31) for 119 not good enough?

 

They can't use frequencies the FCC doesn't allow them to. Maybe look at what Dish is assigned for 110 and 119, and if they've got the rest of what Directv isn't using, that's probably all you're going to get, short of having a frequency analyzer looking what a dish receives before the LNB frequency shift occurs. EDIT: I guess that wouldn't help, since it couldn't tell apart what Directv and Dish satellites are broadcasting.


Edited by slice1900, 27 December 2013 - 12:16 AM.

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#273 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 02:16 AM

Unless P. Smith is asking why the 110 S.S. screen does not read the real tp. numbers 28, 30, and 32 as active, instead of the converted IF numbers 8, 10, and 12.

 

And my guess would be that the S.S. screens are simply designed to translate a received transponder IF channel to what it thinks is the actual FCC assigned or filed one based on where it appears in the IF spectrum.

 

So since the receiver detects the IF signals for DBS channels 8, 10, and 12 at the 110 satellite position, it just displays those as the actual received DBS channels from the satellite.       


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#274 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 10:21 AM

actually, the receiver does not "detect" IF; it making the tpn## on S.S. on the fly, by tables (pseudo XML actually); while my cue was a simple point of digging in that direction, main problem  is SB's tpn## on 99W and 103 W, mostly SW-1 and SW-2. If follow FCC (do we have clear picture for the sats ?) and treat tpn## from S.S. screens, will we get proper freqs of the tpns ?


Edited by P Smith, 27 December 2013 - 10:22 AM.


#275 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 27 December 2013 - 01:05 PM

OK, so you're trying to figure out the discrepancy RollTide is seeing, where the "TID" from the guide info shows his locals on TID 3, but his signal strength screen shows them on tpn 4. Those are different polarities, so it can't be a simple matter of a lookup table converting tpn/TID to IF frequency or vice versa.

 

If RollTide has a multiswitch, it would be interesting to see what happens if he disconnected the 103/110/119 even and odd, in turn, and tries to view his locals. That would establish for sure whether they're really coming from 3 or 4, at least.


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