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Transponder Maps: Domestic & DLA ~ Data Refresh 4/22/2015


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#376 OFFLINE   KyL416

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:51 PM

Kyle,
 
Would you consider putting together and posting an "OTA Tutorial" for all of us?

I'm looking into it, there's just so many instances that come up that I could use some other help on to rule things out to see what's really being checked and what's not. Cases like above where stations have multiple -2's matched to different major channels, potential cases where someone might be served by a translator or a repeater and if they get similar results to other users who reported them being packed up. I'll have to go through the list in depth and put a call out for some people to report back results. My market doesn't have any of those, but there is some other things I might try if I can find time between recordings to mess with my OTA channels since some of my stations have the same RF numbers as a neighboring market. For example swapping primary and secondary zip codes to see if RF mappings on the primary market get priority over the secondary market.

Is the OTA tab everything that is reported in the guide stream or does it include some other data given that you don't list? i.e. not every station has it, but the NOTES_0 field corresponds to the TMS ID of the station's guide data. Is there other identifying data is included like a TSID?

Edited by KyL416, 11 April 2014 - 09:58 PM.


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#377 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:30 PM

Is the OTA tab everything that is reported in the guide stream or does it include some other data given that you don't list? i.e. not every station has it, but the NOTES_0 field corresponds to the TMS ID of the station's guide data. Is there other identifying data is included like a TSID?

 

Kyle,

 

The data in the OTA tab is everything that there is.  Nothing left out.  Nothing added.  We began this endeavor to provide data in 2007 with the express purpose of providing 'real' data; there is no outisde interpretation or manipulation.

 

I cannot explain why not all records have the TMS ID in the NOTES_0 field.  I will try to do some homework to see if the same records have that field missing week after week.  The good news is that of the 4,011 OTA records, only 32 have a null NOTES_0 field.




#378 OFFLINE   KyL416

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 11:21 PM

Can you look into the last few posts of this thread? VOS is suggesting that there might be an additional database that is zip code specific and affects things like low power repeaters:
http://www.dbstalk.c...t-emptor/page-2

Basically despite being in the same market, the zip code for Sunnyvale gave him both KGODT on RF 7 and its San Jose repeater on RF 35, the zip code for South San Francisco only include the main signal on RF 7.

On the otherhand, another user from a few months ago kept on getting WCBS's Long Island repeater on RF 22 no matter which zip code he used, even one that is at the opposite end of the market nowhere near Long Island.

Since I don't live in an area with repeaters I can't test it first hand.

#379 OFFLINE   coconut13

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:16 AM

Can you look into the last few posts of this thread? VOS is suggesting that there might be an additional database that is zip code specific and affects things like low power repeaters:
http://www.dbstalk.c...t-emptor/page-2

Basically despite being in the same market, the zip code for Sunnyvale gave him both KGODT on RF 7 and its San Jose repeater on RF 35, the zip code for South San Francisco only include the main signal on RF 7.

On the otherhand, another user from a few months ago kept on getting WCBS's Long Island repeater on RF 22 no matter which zip code he used, even one that is at the opposite end of the market nowhere near Long Island.

Since I don't live in an area with repeaters I can't test it first hand.

I live 58 miles from the Twin Cities TV towers. I only live 40 miles form the St James MN  translator towers. My antenna is pointed at the TC towers, but my antenna picks up some of the translator stations from ST J. The channel with the strongest signal at the time of the scan will be the channel that is shown. For instance 5.1 and 5.7 are RF35 from the TC and RF30 from the translator station. It will have two 5.1 and 5.7 channels in your edit list , but will only show 1 channel. I know this because my 2.1,2.2 and 2.4 channels are RF34 for the TC and RF26 for ST J. For some unexplained reason the signal from STJ is stronger and the TC signal on that station fades in and out and my AM21 shows the signal from RF26 STJ on that channel. I know this is how it works, because 5.6 RF45 THIS out of the TC cannot be picked up any way because of its high sub-channel number. But STJ 5.6 is RF44 and my antenna very rarely picks up 5.6 RF44 out of STJ, but when it did I tried an experiment and it worked. The D* database for Cincinnati OH has a 52.6 RF44 channel and when my antenna was receiving 5.6 RF44 out of STJ I reran the set-up on the AM21 with Cin. as a secondary zip and I received channel 5.6 THIS. So by matching a .6 RF44 sub-channel I could get THIS because of it. So the AM21 with pick-up any channel that your antenna receives if it can match to a channel number or a RF channel number from the database. Depending that a zip code with that channel or RF channel is supplied, translator station or not.



#380 OFFLINE   KyL416

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:31 AM

Thanks, more evidence for the it does indeed scan side. Along with more evidence supporting that as long as the RF and minor number matches it will grab the major channel from the PSIP data.

VOS's latest post clarified that he was talking about CBS not ABC, but I can't find any current repeaters for KPIX. It was a year ago, so he might have been talking about one of their experimental on channel boosters, so his issue would have been unrelated to this which involves repeaters on different RF channels. (Which explains why changing the zip code solved it for him while everyone else still gets repeaters no matter what zip code they use) Unfortunately he doesn't live there anymore so I can't get any further testing on his situation.

I would run a test myself right now using a random zip code that has the same major channel as I do but no repeaters on the corresponding RF channel, but because of the weather it's another night of one of my distant stations not coming in so I wouldn't be able to get that station back again for another few hours and I have recordings on my other OTA channels starting then.

Edited by KyL416, 12 April 2014 - 12:54 AM.


#381 OFFLINE   coconut13

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:40 AM

Thanks, more evidence for the it does indeed scan side.

VOS's latest post clarified that he was talking about CBS not ABC, but I can't find any current repeaters for KPIX. It was a year ago, so he might have been talking about one of their experimental on channel boosters, so his issue would have been unrelated to this which involves repeaters on different RF channels.

I know it scans. It started doing this when the actual scanning was removed from the HR 34/44's. It was by total accident that I discovered this. My AM21 picks up a blank feed channel from St James, channel 24.1 and one of my secondary zip codes that I was using had a 24.1 channel. So it has to scan in order to be able to pick up that channel feed. For some reason I have a very strong signal on a blank feed channel with my antenna pointed in the opposite direction, and the AM21 found it.



#382 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 03:35 AM

That doesn't mean it scans. I haven't played with secondaries, but it sounds like you're saying that if you add a secondary ZIP you don't get all its channels added, but only those that you actually pick up.

 

That implies it checks for the channels in the database (primary plus any secondaries) individually to see if they exist, rather than scanning - which I take to mean a check of the entire OTA frequency range. The latter takes minutes to do, and is no longer part of the process. The former would require mere seconds.


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#383 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 01:40 PM

.....  Is the OTA tab everything that is reported in the guide stream or does it include some other data given that you don't list? i.e. not every station has it, but the NOTES_0 field corresponds to the TMS ID of the station's guide data. .......

 

 

Kyle,

 

Your question about the NOTES_0 field sent me off to do some analysis of the OTA records in our past TPN Maps.

 

The results are most interesting;  the implications could be Huge for folks using OTA.

 

Here is what I found:

 

10/19/11        130 OTA records had NOTES_0 /TMS data

11/02/11         136 OTA records had NOTES_0/TMS data

01/18/12        181 OTA records had NOTES_0/TMS data

01/02/13        412 OTA records had NOTES_0/TMS data

05/29/13      2,517 OTA records had NOTES_0/TMS data

04/09/14      3,878 OTA records had NOTES_0/TMS data

 

And again, in this week’s 4/9/14 data, only 32 of the 4,011 records do not have this data.

 

A great deal of time and work has gone into populating those records.  The conjecture now becomes, “What use are they going to make of that data?”  What value does it bring?  What are the possibilities?




#384 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 03:57 PM

And again, in this week’s 4/9/14 data, only 32 of the 4,011 records do not have this data.
 
A great deal of time and work has gone into populating those records.  The conjecture now becomes, “What use are they going to make of that data?”  What value does it bring?  What are the possibilities?


If it helps, the blank in the South Bend market for WNDU 16-3 ... that channel does not exist OTA.

Do you call it TMS data for Tribune Media Services? The numbers in the table (at least the ones I looked at) match the channel numbers Tribune Media Services uses for the channels. TMS channel 19655 is WNDUDT 16-1 South Bend, 28024 is WSBTDT 22-1 South Bend, the blank for 16-3 simply means there is no TMS data to match that OTA channel. (Which is reasonable as that OTA channel does not exist.)

The next step would be to look at the EPG stream. Is DirecTV using the TMS numbers in the EPG stream to match channels to their EPG? Basically telling their receivers: "In LIL market 177 RF channel 42 is channel 16-1, 16-2 and 16-3. Display EPG 19655 for 16-1, EPG 49125 for 16-2 and I don't have an EPG for 16-3." Is that a fair thought?
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#385 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:16 PM

If it helps, the blank in the South Bend market for WNDU 16-3 ... that channel does not exist OTA..........

 

James,

 

Thank you for the input regarding your locals.  I think you have just solved the question of those few remaining records which have no related TMS Channel Number.

 

Your hypothesis of correlating major.minor channel numbers to nnnnn TMS Channel numbers makes a great deal of sense. 

 

But I am still bothered trying to understand how the current process has worked, without the TMS data in the stream.  And now, what limitations have been overcome or new capabilities have been gained?

 

Engineering is making (or has already completed?) this change for some solid benefits, you can be sure....




#386 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:53 PM

I hadn't ever looked at the notes field before, but I wonder - why do most stations have a 40G prefix and 41H suffix? It is almost as though it is some sort of special delimiter that isn't being properly translated.

 

I agree that filling in those fields has to have some purpose. Hopefully they didn't all that work as a prereq for removing OTA scanning :)


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#387 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:09 PM

It does not seem to make sense to have a field that is not used by the receiver ... especially in satellite data where every byte counts. Is the NOTES_1 field used on the receiver? Perhaps NOTES_0 is just an internal reference and the receiver has always and will always use some other method to match channels.

I am more familiar with DISH's way of providing a channel listing and guide. It seems much simpler. DISH adds a descriptor (6 bytes total) to the service decription for each LIL channel that they carry that gives the unique TSID and subchannel number for the OTA broadcast (each OTA station should have a unique TSID). When the receiver finds a channel with that TSID it assigns the LIL's EPG to the subchannel matched. For the subchannels DISH does not carry via satellite, DISH creates a fake channel that cannot be tuned. That channel has the same descriptor with the TSID and subchannel number to match. The DISH receiver does not match the RF channel or ATSC display channel ... just the TSID and subchannel.

For example, if a DISH receiver sees an OTA channel transmitting TSID 0x0479, subchannel 01 is linked to whatever EPG is in the separate EPG table for DISH channel 5192 or 7092. If a DISH receivers sees TSID 0x0479, subchannel 02 is linked to whatever EPG is availiable for DISH channel 14865. It does not matter what RF channel is used - theoretically it could be a translator as long as the TSID and subchannel order is the same.

The key is finding the key - what unique identifier is there that ties something the receiver can see (the TSID or some match between RF channel and display channel) to the EPG data delivered over satellite. I have found that for DISH - good luck in finding the key for DirecTV.
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#388 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:12 PM

I hadn't ever looked at the notes field before, but I wonder - why do most stations have a 40G prefix and 41H suffix? It is almost as though it is some sort of special delimiter that isn't being properly translated.


My guess is brackets ... the ones that have 40G and 41H don't have ( and ). If one were to replace 40G with ( and 41H with ) it would be consistant with brackets. (Perhaps {} or [] would be a better match?)
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#389 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 07:20 PM

I would look at the letters [40G and 41H] as a pair of metadata, perhaps BOLD/italic/etc; could someone post a screenshot of such channels after pressing Info button ?

#390 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 12:19 AM

My guess is brackets ... the ones that have 40G and 41H don't have ( and ). If one were to replace 40G with ( and 41H with ) it would be consistant with brackets. (Perhaps {} or [] would be a better match?)

 

Good call. I hadn't thought about that, but 40 & 41 are the ASCII codes for ( and ). Not sure about the G and H, maybe P Smith is on to something with bold or color modifier.


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#391 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 12:25 AM

It does not seem to make sense to have a field that is not used by the receiver ... especially in satellite data where every byte counts. Is the NOTES_1 field used on the receiver? Perhaps NOTES_0 is just an internal reference and the receiver has always and will always use some other method to match channels.

 

NOTES_0 seems to provide data it could use, list the Tribune station ID to link the channel with the guide data. Maybe NOTES_1 is for internal use. Keep it in logs so when a receiver sends diag info to Directv they don't have to look up the station via call sign or Tribune ID.

 

Since NOTES_0 has only recently been populated, they were (probably still are) matching stations to guide info differently. Maybe this is paving the way for a change in the way they're doing that.


Edited by slice1900, 13 April 2014 - 12:34 AM.

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#392 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 09:55 AM

I see the 'notes' as "short description" and "long description" for a channel when you press Info button;

 

... wandering why no one spent just one minute to tune to that OTA channel and got visual interpretation of the 40g/41h codes :shrug:


Edited by P Smith, 13 April 2014 - 09:55 AM.


#393 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:18 AM

I see the 'notes' as "short description" and "long description" for a channel when you press Info.......

We have been though this once before ! A great lesson here:

Go to the Latin TPN Map, Beam Oeste tab. Notice channel 215, Comedy Central. The NOTES_0 field says it is Comedy Central. The NOTES_1 field has a long string about the VH1 channel.

I was initially very concerned that we had a serious problem in processing the data. But then we got feedback from member egakagoc2xi, in Colombia. When egakagoc2xi presses 'info' for the Comedy Central channel -------- he sees the VH1 string.


#394 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 12:03 PM

So, will we see at least one post? - what Info string pictured on a display for that 40g/41h ?

#395 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 12:13 PM

So, will we see at least one post? - what Info string pictured on a display for that 40g/41h ?


And are people seeing the TMS number in the short field?
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#396 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 12:15 PM

hope so ...



#397 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:26 PM

And are people seeing the TMS number in the short field?

H20 doesn't show the 'short description' for OTA channels; in that line it's show just ch/subch ["68-5"] and call sign if it's in DTV's database ["KKPXDT4"] or nothing ""

40h/41h on screen replaced as "(" and ")".

CBS Affiliate KPIXDT 40GKPIX-DT41H from San Francisco, CA

 

Solved.

 

Gary, add to your processing the substitution, please.

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Edited by P Smith, 14 April 2014 - 06:18 PM.


#398 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:02 PM

Wow isn't that guide two generations ago? Maybe it couldn't show the short description.


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#399 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:37 PM

Wow isn't that guide two generations ago? Maybe it couldn't show the short description.


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OK, I'll repeat just for you ;) "show just ch/subch ["68-5"] and call sign if it's in DTV's database ["KKPXDT4"]"


Edited by P Smith, 14 April 2014 - 08:58 PM.


#400 OFFLINE   Gary Toma

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:12 PM

Doctor J Comments for the  4/16/2014 Domestic Data

 

 

No HD or SD Local-Into-Local channel additions or deletions.

 

 

However, interesting moving or re-balancing has taken place since last week's data:

 

Market 63 (Eureka, CA) has been moved from Spaceway 2/TPN 5 to D11/TPN 24







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