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Guest Message by DevFuse

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OK, so what is fast/slow to you?


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60 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:29 AM

Who Needs 12 DVRs??? :lol:


Does sound kinda nutty, doesn't it? Happened so fast I thought they were breeding. But I've got 12 HRs that work well and if they fail, they fail. I suspect I'll be down to 8 on MRV and two backups before long. Of course I suspected that I'd be using the 6 I bought for replacements when I bought the 6 owned HRs a couple years ago out of frustration with D*'s replacements. Who knew the damn things were gonna stabilize at that time?.... :lol:

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#27 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:38 PM

I know you're better at this than I am, but isn't the 7 secs off by a factor of 2, and if so, it matched what the tune time is here with native off [HDMI] or native on with component.

Well, let's see. My math could be off. For 1080i30 there are 30 (29.97) frames per second, and if the GOP can be 200 frames, I guess that would be about ~6 2/3 seconds between I frames, assuming the GOP has but one I frame. That would make the average access time ~3 1/3 seconds, not counting other latency. But it could be as long as 6 2/3 if you access just after the I frame goes by, not including other latency. This is just decoder latency based on when the I frame occurs, and there is probably more latency there as there is a buffer that must be filled to a certain level for consistent decoding.

If you are using HDMI, that adds even more latency, and especially if there is a pixel map format change involved (such as native on and going from ESPN at 720 to CBS at 1080), but as I discussed, the rumor is that DTV adds an I frame every second or so to carve that first ~3 1/3 seconds down to ~1/2 a second on average.

Latency is everywhere; a signal leaving the Master Control switcher of a TV station might see as much as 10 seconds of latency in the picture before you see it over DBS in your living room (so even "live" isn't really "live"). But latency is only important in reference; just because you might receive the picture 10 seconds or more after it is encoded for broadcast isn't problematic because when it was encoded is transparent to the viewer and unimportant. But if the reference is to the time you pressed a button and it takes 3 or 4 seconds to respond, then that is problematic.

Edited by TomCat, 25 January 2013 - 01:51 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#28 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 01:59 PM

As I'm sure is the case with others, speed has always been a relative thing for me, based on the state of technology at the time. My first 8086 PC seemed plenty fast, until I got my first 286 machine, etc., etc.

Right now, the H25 is my reference STB. Any DirecTV box that's not as responsive is "slow" to me.


I don't think any of us can disagree with that. But the ironic thing is that old analog cable boxes from the 90's could change channels as fast as you could press the button. Digital is "progress" in many ways, but not as far as latency goes.

My mother watches NBA on DTV HD and listens on AM radio, which means that the announcer can scream "3-pointer" while the ball is stll being dribbled by the shooter. Drives her insane.
It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#29 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:23 PM

Well, let's see. My math could be off.

It wouldn't be the first time mine was off either. :lol:
My tune times are very repeatable.
I set two channels and then use the previous [or jump on the TV] to bounce between the two.
I press and start counting until the image displays.
The Sony TV through its antenna is one thousand two.
My HR24 with component only varied from one thousand two thousand to one thousand two thousand three.
Native on/off and SD to HD, HD 720p to 1080i, all gave the same results.

I have no idea of how many I frames are being used, but the tune results seem constant, once I remove the HDMI resolution change lag.

As for "latency", I get sort of a kick out having to cycle the Sony's input between OTA, a receiver, and a DVR, since part of the dialog will repeat three times if they're all on the same channel and I start with OTA, then a non DVR, and end with a DVR.
A.K.A VOS

#30 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 02:44 PM

It wouldn't be the first time mine was off either. :lol:
My tune times are very repeatable.
I set two channels and then use the previous [or jump on the TV] to bounce between the two.
I press and start counting until the image displays.
The Sony TV through its antenna is one thousand two.
My HR24 with component only varied from one thousand two thousand to one thousand two thousand three.
Native on/off and SD to HD, HD 720p to 1080i, all gave the same results.

I have no idea of how many I frames are being used, but the tune results seem constant, once I remove the HDMI resolution change lag.

As for "latency", I get sort of a kick out having to cycle the Sony's input between OTA, a receiver, and a DVR, since part of the dialog will repeat three times if they're all on the same channel and I start with OTA, then a non DVR, and end with a DVR.


1080i has the frame rate Tom mentioned. 29.7. The rest of them, I don't know.

Rich

#31 OFFLINE   acostapimps

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:49 PM

Whenever there are delay issues with channel changing or menu/guide what I do is flip channels really fast to essentially "wake up" your DVR and also browse the guide really quick, anything to get that blue light blinking really quick and it almost always works.

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#32 OFFLINE   Gone Coastal

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:56 PM

I just switched from Dish to Direct and going from the 722 to the HR34 has really taken some patience. It's simply unacceptable on any level that I press a button on the remote and 2-3 seconds later the action happens. Opening the guide, going to the recorded shows list, and having the channel pop up is tolerable but browsing the guide is just horrendous. Simply a terrible product from a company that has been doing this for this long.

The 722 was FAST. Button presses were instant in the guide and when skipping ahead 30 seconds through recorded shows.

#33 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:47 PM

I just switched from Dish to Direct and going from the 722 to the HR34 has really taken some patience. It's simply unacceptable on any level that I press a button on the remote and 2-3 seconds later the action happens. Opening the guide, going to the recorded shows list, and having the channel pop up is tolerable but browsing the guide is just horrendous. Simply a terrible product from a company that has been doing this for this long.

The 722 was FAST. Button presses were instant in the guide and when skipping ahead 30 seconds through recorded shows.


Have you turned off the Scrolling Effects ?
Menu, Settings, Display, Preferences set the Scrolling Effects to OFF

Edited by jimmie57, 26 January 2013 - 03:59 PM.

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#34 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:39 PM

I just switched from Dish to Direct and going from the 722 to the HR34 has really taken some patience. It's simply unacceptable on any level that I press a button on the remote and 2-3 seconds later the action happens. Opening the guide, going to the recorded shows list, and having the channel pop up is tolerable but browsing the guide is just horrendous. Simply a terrible product from a company that has been doing this for this long.

The 722 was FAST. Button presses were instant in the guide and when skipping ahead 30 seconds through recorded shows.

I suspect you'll see some improvement with firmware updates, but "instant" doesn't seem to be an option.
A.K.A VOS

#35 OFFLINE   Jerry_K

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:02 PM

Mike Greer summed it up pretty nicely. I would add that having to key in a new channel twice before it tunes is SLOW. Both the 24 and 34 have this bug. Never changes on the first input but always changes on the second input.

Fast really were the TiVo's both DirecTiVo and Series 3 Tivo. Dish is slow compared to TiVo and DTV is just plain tedious.
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#36 OFFLINE   jones_hdtv

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:10 PM

Have you turned off the Scrolling Effects ?
Menu, Settings, Display, Preferences set the Scrolling Effects to OFF


That may help a little bit....BUT it will not compare to the DISH Dvrs...Period

#37 OFFLINE   RACJ2

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

I just switched from Dish to Direct and going from the 722 to the HR34 has really taken some patience. It's simply unacceptable on any level that I press a button on the remote and 2-3 seconds later the action happens. Opening the guide, going to the recorded shows list, and having the channel pop up is tolerable but browsing the guide is just horrendous. Simply a terrible product from a company that has been doing this for this long.

The 722 was FAST. Button presses were instant in the guide and when skipping ahead 30 seconds through recorded shows.

Wait until you get an update with issues. With delays of 10+ seconds, you'll be happy when you get 2 seconds back.
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#38 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 03:54 PM

I just switched from Dish to Direct and going from the 722 to the HR34 has really taken some patience. It's simply unacceptable on any level that I press a button on the remote and 2-3 seconds later the action happens. Opening the guide, going to the recorded shows list, and having the channel pop up is tolerable but browsing the guide is just horrendous. Simply a terrible product from a company that has been doing this for this long.

The 722 was FAST. Button presses were instant in the guide and when skipping ahead 30 seconds through recorded shows.


Welcome to DirecTVland - things are a bit slower here.:)

When I switched from Dish about 6 years ago I was shocked to find how slow DirecTV DVRs responded.... I was told that new firmware was coming soon and things like 'My DVR isn't slow - must be your setup' etc.. over and over. Fact is DirecTV doesn't put 'speed' high on the priority list. When I finally sent my original HR22s back (I paid $600 to get rid of them) they were just as slow and non-responsive 5 years later as the day they were installed.

The HR24s are as fast as it gets with DirecTV and even those used to be faster before firmware 'upgrades' slowed them down a bit with the HDGUI. When the HDGUI first came out my HR24s slowed drastically - now things are better but still not as fast as they used to be.

Bottom line is unless DirecTV suddenly decides to change things (and they haven't for the 6 years I've been here) you just have to adjust to navigating slower than you're used to. Easier said than done - I still cuss my HR24 here and there and am jealous of friends and family that have Dish Network DVRs.

I haven't personally seen the HR34 but from what I've read it is somewhere between the HR21/22/23 and the HR24 in speed - and that to me is not fast enough but not likely to improve.... Sadly...

The HR44 is rumored to be 'fast' but until it is widely available and enough people have used it for a bit the jury is still out. Who knows - maybe the HR44 will be the turning point and Dish Network speed will become the norm for DirecTV too.


Happy TV watching... Albeit slower with your new Genie!

#39 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

I haven't personally seen the HR34 but from what I've read it is somewhere between the HR21/22/23 and the HR24 in speed - and that to me is not fast enough but not likely to improve.... Sadly...

You don't even want to see the clients. :nono:
A.K.A VOS

#40 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

1080i has the frame rate Tom mentioned. 29.7. The rest of them, I don't know.

Rich

I assume he was speaking about GOP structure; how many in the GOP. The frame rate of 1080i is actually 29.97, which is a legacy holdover from NTSC in 1953; they lowered it from 30 to make it a submultiple of the 3.58 MHz chroma subcarrier that was tacked on when they added color. Still with us 60 years later, and was here decades before the concept of GOP was even a gleam in some Engineer's eye. :grin:

720p is 59.94 for that same reason. One wonders if this means more I frames in 720p per second than in 1080i, because if they have the same GOP structure, then twice as many GOPs stream through in the same amount of time. Of couse even if there were, it could also mean they still only add 1 per second to speed up acquisition, which would tend to level any differences out.

The thing is this: you do what you are capable of, and you don't do what you're not capable of. DTV Engineers, and I use the term lightly, are absolutely incapable of designing in the speed that DISH Engineers seem to have perfected, which is pretty maddening, because there are still enough arguments to make DTV a better choice, in the opinion of many. Even if they knew the secret sauce recipe, it is likely that the legacy design of the DVR+ can't really be changed all that much and they have effectively painted themselves into a corner.

Of course I still contend that much of the sluggishness comes from piling on bloatware crap-apps that are of questionable value and potentially a threat to speed and stability. Rip out those "features" that I never wanted nor asked for, and give me a basic DVR that performs at a reasonable snappiness with reasonable reliability (that last issue the problem DISH Engineers seem to have trouble with).

Edited by TomCat, 26 January 2013 - 06:09 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#41 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

You don't even want to see the clients. :nono:


Geez - you're making my day... I was hoping the HR44 and a couple of clients would be the way to go.... Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I guess - even if the HR44 is screaming fast I'd still end up having to maintain 3 separate schedules and keeping my HR24s....:(

#42 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 07:09 PM

Of course I still contend that much of the sluggishness comes from piling on bloatware crap-apps that are of questionable value and potentially a threat to speed and stability.



Sad but I'd bet you are not far from the truth.....

#43 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:34 PM

Geez - you're making my day... I was hoping the HR44 and a couple of clients would be the way to go.... Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I guess - even if the HR44 is screaming fast I'd still end up having to maintain 3 separate schedules and keeping my HR24s....:(

Let me put it this way, "you know" I don't find the other receivers that slow, but every time I use my client, I know exactly what others are bitching about.
A.K.A VOS

#44 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:33 AM

Mike Greer summed it up pretty nicely. I would add that having to key in a new channel twice before it tunes is SLOW. Both the 24 and 34 have this bug. Never changes on the first input but always changes on the second input.

Fast really were the TiVo's both DirecTiVo and Series 3 Tivo. Dish is slow compared to TiVo and DTV is just plain tedious.


I've often wondered just how large Mike's fingers are.... :lol:

Rich

#45 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:39 AM

You don't even want to see the clients. :nono:


I think I'd be troubled if Mike were to go for the clients instead of DVRs. I just don't get the whole non-DVR client thing.

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#46 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:48 AM

I assume he was speaking about GOP structure; how many in the GOP. The frame rate of 1080i is actually 29.97, which is a legacy holdover from NTSC in 1953; they lowered it from 30 to make it a submultiple of the 3.58 MHz chroma subcarrier that was tacked on when they added color. Still with us 60 years later, and was here decades before the concept of GOP was even a gleam in some Engineer's eye. :grin:

720p is 59.94 for that same reason. One wonders if this means more I frames in 720p per second than in 1080i, because if they have the same GOP structure, then twice as many GOPs stream through in the same amount of time. Of couse even if there were, it could also mean they still only add 1 per second to speed up acquisition, which would tend to level any differences out.

The thing is this: you do what you are capable of, and you don't do what you're not capable of. DTV Engineers, and I use the term lightly, are absolutely incapable of designing in the speed that DISH Engineers seem to have perfected, which is pretty maddening, because there are still enough arguments to make DTV a better choice, in the opinion of many. Even if they knew the secret sauce recipe, it is likely that the legacy design of the DVR+ can't really be changed all that much and they have effectively painted themselves into a corner.

Of course I still contend that much of the sluggishness comes from piling on bloatware crap-apps that are of questionable value and potentially a threat to speed and stability. Rip out those "features" that I never wanted nor asked for, and give me a basic DVR that performs at a reasonable snappiness with reasonable reliability (that last issue the problem DISH Engineers seem to have trouble with).


That's just about all I ever wanted from a DVR. The main reason I have 12 HRs active at this time is...I don't trust them. I just can't get over what I've gone thru since the fall of '06. I do have to admit they seem pretty stable at the moment, but just after the last NR downloaded 4 of my 24-500s went berserk and I thought I'd lost them. They recovered, but 4 of them at once? How can you trust them?

Rich

#47 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:53 AM

Geez - you're making my day... I was hoping the HR44 and a couple of clients would be the way to go.... Doesn't look like that is going to happen.

I guess - even if the HR44 is screaming fast I'd still end up having to maintain 3 separate schedules and keeping my HR24s....:(


Mike, stick with the DVRs. Please. Unless you can put up with having a 34 or 44 with multiple non-DVR clients and the 34 or 44 fails. Then you'd have nothing until the 34/44 was replaced and you'd still lose ALL your recordings.

Rich

#48 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

I think I'd be troubled if Mike were to go for the clients instead of DVRs. I just don't get the whole non-DVR client thing.

Rich

As someone with a dozen or more DVRs, I can see how/why you don't.
With the addition of MRV, we moved from stand alone boxes and towards an integrated system.
In my case, I needed two DVRs [in the main room] and I could use a receiver in my bedroom. With this I could watch recordings, and setup recordings in the bedroom. In the main room I needed to change DVRs to setup recordings and check to-do lists, as I needed to balance them between the two for conflicts.

With the move to Genie and a client [for the bedroom], I have full access and features/functions from everywhere, without needing to change any inputs, or receivers.
A.K.A VOS

#49 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:26 PM

As someone with a dozen or more DVRs, I can see how/why you don't.
With the addition of MRV, we moved from stand alone boxes and towards an integrated system.
In my case, I needed two DVRs [in the main room] and I could use a receiver in my bedroom. With this I could watch recordings, and setup recordings in the bedroom. In the main room I needed to change DVRs to setup recordings and check to-do lists, as I needed to balance them between the two for conflicts.

With the move to Genie and a client [for the bedroom], I have full access and features/functions from everywhere, without needing to change any inputs, or receivers.


Yup, I get that. But you don't have 8 plasmas to feed. They seemed to breed for a while, too... :lol:

#50 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:53 PM

Let me put it this way, "you know" I don't find the other receivers that slow, but every time I use my client, I know exactly what others are bitching about.


Stop it! You're crushing my hopes and dreams of having 'fast' receivers from DirecTV someday!:D




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