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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Will DirecTV move to H.265?


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148 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:02 AM

No one can!

I didn't say any codec was better than another. All I mean is that DirecTV cannot make the MPEG2 they receive from the broadcaster any better no matter what they do to it.

It can only go down from there.

The quality of the MPEG4 equipment will/does determine how much worse the re-encoded MPEG4 or MPEGWHATEVER will be - if any. But it won't be better than the original!


...you're behind the times. Many networks are using MPEG-4 for distribution and have been for awhile.
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#22 OFFLINE   macfan601

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:04 AM

I dunno, I'm looking at my TV on "mainstream" HD channels, and I see gradiations, pixelation, jaggies, compression artifacts, etc. Its not a bad picture mind you, but its not a good picture either. I shouldn't see that kind of stuff on the mainstream HD channels like USA, CNN, etc. Ok, I'd expect to see it on the obscure channels like Golf and Fishing channels.


I think you need to have your setup looked at. I sure don't see what you are describing on my two LCD TV sets or when using my home theater projector. Sure I get digital blocks once in a great while due to atmospheric conditions but that is the worst I have.

#23 OFFLINE   CCarncross

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

I see some of those same artifacts on BD disks as well...all digitial video is subject to some of those artifacts. I have not seen better broadcast PQ from any provider, I know some say there are a few. And I can see a slight difference between HD locals and OTA locals.

#24 OFFLINE   charlie460

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

I have also noticed somewhat sub-par picture quality up close, even with MPEG-4 things can still be bitstarved, but from normal viewing distance it looks fine. I can't complain really, it's less bitstarved than any of my other choices for TV providers.

#25 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:14 AM

Not true. They compress it further after they get it from the broadcaster. Same way movies are shot in like 8K resolution and then reprocessed to 1080p.

I can't comment on what compression ratio they are using now since I don't know, but I do remember reading somewhere that they compress certain channels more then others. Like sports they compress less then the news or movies, etc.


I think we are talking about two different things... I'm talking about re-processing will always have some kind of loss of quality in this case. MPEG is not a loss-less compression method.

#26 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:22 AM

...you're behind the times. Many networks are using MPEG-4 for distribution and have been for awhile.


Well thank you for dragging me up to present day Mr. Friendly.:rolleyes:

Maybe you could enlighten all of us on which locals are creating any non-mpeg2 content on their own?

Some details would help I guess.

So are they now producing their content in MPEG4 and then re-encoding to MPEG2? Or maybe DirecTV has installed local MPEG2-to-MPEG4 encoding equipment at the broadcasters facitily? Last time I checked the broadcasters had to broadcast MPEG2 if they wanted anyone to be able to actually use their broadcasts.

Seems rather unlikely that my local channels are going to cough up the money to pay for MPEG4 that is only useful to DirecTV and Dish Network. But, what do I know - I'm living in the 80's!:lol:

#27 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

I see some of those same artifacts on BD disks as well...all digitial video is subject to some of those artifacts. I have not seen better broadcast PQ from any provider, I know some say there are a few. And I can see a slight difference between HD locals and OTA locals.


Agreed - last time I checked there was only a slight difference between OTA and DirecTV. You have to look very closely - maybe a little more noticeable with fast changing screens - especially things like fireworks.

DirecTV does seem to do a good job with the locals - at least with my locals.

#28 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:48 AM

Well thank you for dragging me up to present day Mr. Friendly.:rolleyes:

Maybe you could enlighten all of us on which locals are creating any non-mpeg2 content on their own?

Some details would help I guess.

So are they now producing their content in MPEG4 and then re-encoding to MPEG2? Or maybe DirecTV has installed local MPEG2-to-MPEG4 encoding equipment at the broadcasters facitily? Last time I checked the broadcasters had to broadcast MPEG2 if they wanted anyone to be able to actually use their broadcasts.

Seems rather unlikely that my local channels are going to cough up the money to pay for MPEG4 that is only useful to DirecTV and Dish Network. But, what do I know - I'm living in the 80's!:lol:


ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and ESPN have all migrated to MPEG-4 transmissions, just to name a few.
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#29 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 10:57 AM

ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, and ESPN have all migrated to MPEG-4 transmissions, just to name a few.


Really?

So when I watch something on CBS who is doing the transcoding? DirecTV, my local broadcaster or CBS? How about when I watch my local news?

#30 ONLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:00 AM

Really?

So when I watch something on CBS who is doing the transcoding? DirecTV, my local broadcaster or CBS? How about when I watch my local news?


It depends on your local channels technology. I believe some locals have direct uplinks to DirecTV & do so in mpeg4.
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#31 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

Really?

So when I watch something on CBS who is doing the transcoding? DirecTV, my local broadcaster or CBS? How about when I watch my local news?


It depends on the delivery method and/or route. As for locals, they were required to update equipment. I don't know much about the in-between, only that many have already migrated to MPEG-4. It was big news elsewhere.
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#32 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:24 AM

It depends on your local channels technology. I believe some locals have direct uplinks to DirecTV & do so in mpeg4.


Yes - I was hoping the Hoosier205 could give us details on who does the MPEG encoding.

#33 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:25 AM

It depends on the delivery method and/or route. As for locals, they were required to update equipment. I don't know much about the in-between, only that many have already migrated to MPEG-4. It was big news elsewhere.


So you don't know?!:)

#34 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

As I said earlier, bottom line, when DirecTV receives the MPEG2 or MPEG4 (just so Mr. Hoosier doesn't get upset) from the local stations and then re-encodes it the quality does not go up.

They do a good job in my market and the quality is 'close enough' for me but there is a slight difference compared to OTA. You can't use 'lossy' compression without a loss.

#35 OFFLINE   tonyd79

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:26 AM

I dunno, I'm looking at my TV on "mainstream" HD channels, and I see gradiations, pixelation, jaggies, compression artifacts, etc. Its not a bad picture mind you, but its not a good picture either. I shouldn't see that kind of stuff on the mainstream HD channels like USA, CNN, etc. Ok, I'd expect to see it on the obscure channels like Golf and Fishing channels.


And yet they show up on directv which only recodes and does not dowrez and fios which does neither. Actually, some feeds are mpeg4 from the source and directv does nothing to them.
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#36 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:28 AM

As I said earlier, bottom line, when DirecTV receives the MPEG2 or MPEG4 (just so Mr. Hoosier doesn't get upset) from the local stations and then re-encodes it the quality does not go up.

They do a good job in my market and the quality is 'close enough' for me but there is a slight difference compared to OTA. You can't use 'lossy' compression without a loss.


Who claimed that the quality goes up?
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#37 OFFLINE   Go Beavs

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:28 AM

DIRECTV provides nine Portland, OR local stations in HD from one transponder. If there was a time to tell a quality difference between MPEG2 and MPEG4 codecs, it should be in this DMA.

So, fwiw, I cannot see any difference between OTA and SAT provided locals. In fact, locals from the SAT look slightly better to me. I'm not sure of the format that DIRECTV receives those channels but I do know that some are delivered by fiber.

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#38 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:30 AM

Actually, some feeds are mpeg4 from the source and directv does nothing to them.


I'm not sure, Hoosier will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think DirecTV passes anything along untouched... As in bit-for-bit what they receive. They have to mux multipe channels together and need to control the bandwidth.

#39 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:41 AM

No, I mean HD quality. HD quality is not all that great due to the high compression ratios.

Have you ever actually looked at the HD picture from not 15' or whatever away? I know you don't sit 2" from the TV, but look at it that close once. Lots of compression artifacts, pixelation, jaggies, gradiation issues, etc. I sit about 12' away from my 50" TV and I can see compression artifacts, etc. quite often. Not my signal. Everything is all 90+.

Do you have OTA hooked up? Do a side by side of a 1080i program from OTA vs. the same channel from DirecTV. You'll see the OTA version is quite a bit sharper.


Considering the HD took a large increase in quality with mpeg4, I disagree.


Who can't? :lol: Mike, seriously, you don't think there could be better codecs than MPEG2? Basis?


Not true. They compress it further after they get it from the broadcaster. Same way movies are shot in like 8K resolution and then reprocessed to 1080p.

I can't comment on what compression ratio they are using now since I don't know, but I do remember reading somewhere that they compress certain channels more then others. Like sports they compress less then the news or movies, etc.


Who claimed that the quality goes up?


All missunderstandings.... Just trying to clear things up....

#40 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:37 PM

Not true. They compress it further after they get it from the broadcaster. Same way movies are shot in like 8K resolution and then reprocessed to 1080p.

I can't comment on what compression ratio they are using now since I don't know, but I do remember reading somewhere that they compress certain channels more then others. Like sports they compress less then the news or movies, etc.


It is already compressed and packaged when the broadcaster transmits it. The provider isn't doing that, aside from any additional compression necessary for their delivery system. The closest you'll get to a 8K -> 1080p type of scenario is if you are looking at the live, unaltered feed in a production truck at a live event or you are in the studio for a production. Once a network has it ready for transmission, it's already in their resolution (1080i or 720p) and bitrate of choice. Now, the provider can still reduce that resolution and bitrate. Some are better about it than others.

MPEG-4 is far more efficient than MPEG-2. Things have gotten better for us since DirecTV and various networks migrated to MPEG-4.
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