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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Personal Responsibility, and the lack there of, a buyer beware thread.


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58 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   gov

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:00 AM

As an independent installer with customers on several different cable systems, DirecTV, Dish, and OTA only (and a few with some unholy combinations) I generally discourage folks from changing service providers.

Still, from time to time I encounter situations that are literally jaw dropping. A satellite dish installed on the front of a house when I see no reason for it to not have been put out of sight on the back, reluctance of an installer to install equipment specifically listed on a work order, satellite dishes installed on roof OSB and not a rafter, separate departments of a service provider apparently working off different play books, and some CSRs failing to accurately (or at all) detail the account notes.

I'd say the trend over the long term is improving. Some issues will be around for a long time, bundling limitations in rural areas, customers getting to beta test the coolest new hardware, CSR limitations in troubleshooting problems over the phone, etc.

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#22 OFFLINE   pdxBeav

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:37 AM

Exactly. I assume he will be starting a second post regarding "corporate responsibility"?


What are you talking about? Corporations never act irresponsibly. It's always up to the buyer to thoroughly investigate any company they do business with. If you lose a child because a company knowingly made an unsafe product....well too bad, you should have taken more responsibility before you bought the product. Geez, I hate this lawsuit happy society we live in. :rolleyes:

#23 OFFLINE   macfan601

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:02 AM

What are you talking about? Corporations never act irresponsibly. It's always up to the buyer to thoroughly investigate any company they do business with. If you lose a child because a company knowingly made an unsafe product....well too bad, you should have taken more responsibility before you bought the product. Geez, I hate this lawsuit happy society we live in. :rolleyes:


Geez oh Pete. Nice attitude, Not. I sure hope that was sarcasm.

#24 OFFLINE   pdxBeav

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:27 AM

Geez oh Pete. Nice attitude, Not. I sure hope that was sarcasm.


Yes it was. ;)

#25 OFFLINE   bigglebowski

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

A normal coffee maker is not brewing at 150 degrees. That is far too low.


A french press manual will tell you to bring the water up to 195-205 before pouring it over the coffee. From what I understand the average cheap coffee maker most people use brew at a much lower temp like 150 which is too low and why the taste isnt as good as "better" machines.

#26 ONLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:08 PM

A french press manual will tell you to bring the water up to 195-205 before pouring it over the coffee. From what I understand the average cheap coffee maker most people use brew at a much lower temp like 150 which is too low and why the taste isnt as good as "better" machines.


185º is about perfect for a French press, in my experience, after extensive testing. But I also grind mine much finer than the typical manual advises.

Here, as in the beans themselves, mileage varies greatly. As do tastes in brew, temperature desired for consumption, etc.
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#27 OFFLINE   Darth Malgus

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:38 PM

Good post.

But companies can't have it both ways. If you entice a customer into a product by using broad terms, then you can't really get upset when customers fight back using equally broad terms.





While I understand your point, the key here is that the product delivered under those broad terms does actually perform within those terms set. However, when it does not do this in the way that a customer may imagine, I feel there is no need for them to cancel service over it, or become angry. Simply find out how this product you have purchased can do what you need, and configure it in that fashion. Problem solved.

#28 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:19 PM

A normal coffee maker is not brewing at 150 degrees. That is far too low.


It wasn't the brewing temperature that was the problem. It was the sitting temperature. By company policy, McDonalds kept coffee, that was already brewed, at a temperature between 180-190 degrees (a temperature which causes 3rd degree burns in 2-7 seconds). Most restaurants serve coffee at around 160-165 degrees (which takes a far longer time to cause severe burns).

Additionally, at the time, McDonalds didn't add cream and/or sugar to the coffee on request. They would give packages of cream and sugar to the customer. For people who purchased coffee at the drive-thru, this meant that they were required to remove the coffee lid in order to finalize the preparation of their coffee. McDonalds now adds cream and/or sugar upon request, thereby eliminating that hazard.

#29 OFFLINE   HinterXGames

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:47 PM

It wasn't the brewing temperature that was the problem. It was the sitting temperature. By company policy, McDonalds kept coffee, that was already brewed, at a temperature between 180-190 degrees (a temperature which causes 3rd degree burns in 2-7 seconds). Most restaurants serve coffee at around 160-165 degrees (which takes a far longer time to cause severe burns).

Additionally, at the time, McDonalds didn't add cream and/or sugar to the coffee on request. They would give packages of cream and sugar to the customer. For people who purchased coffee at the drive-thru, this meant that they were required to remove the coffee lid in order to finalize the preparation of their coffee. McDonalds now adds cream and/or sugar upon request, thereby eliminating that hazard.


Yes, because common sense doesn't dictate fresh coffee is hot and also dictate one should not put additives in their coffee while not driving. Sorry, I had zero sympathy for the woman. I could see why McDonalds wouldn't add it by request as a policy, as some people might like more cream/sugar than others, or less.

#30 OFFLINE   pdxBeav

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

Yes, because common sense doesn't dictate fresh coffee is hot and also dictate one should not put additives in their coffee while not driving. Sorry, I had zero sympathy for the woman. I could see why McDonalds wouldn't add it by request as a policy, as some people might like more cream/sugar than others, or less.


And the fact that you think she was driving when this happened shows you really know nothing about the incident other than it involved McDonald's, coffee and a woman.

#31 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

And the fact that you think she was driving when this happened shows you really know nothing about the incident other than it involved McDonald's, coffee and a woman.


She wasn't driving, but she was stupid enough to hold a flimsy cup of hot coffee between her legs while sitting in her car.
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#32 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

Yes, because common sense doesn't dictate fresh coffee is hot and also dictate one should not put additives in their coffee while not driving.


Common sense doesn't dictate that someone should know the the coffee that they have been served is 25 degrees hotter than industry standard (which can be the difference between a 1st degree and 3rd degree burn). Common sense doesn't dictate that someone will need skin grafts if they spill a cup of coffee on herself. She ordered coffee, not lava.

Secondly, she wasn't driving when it happened. She was the passenger in the car, which had been pulled over in the parking lot in order for her to add the cream & sugar.

#33 OFFLINE   pdxBeav

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:39 PM

She wasn't driving, but she was stupid enough to hold a flimsy cup of hot coffee between her legs while sitting in her car.


Yes, almost as stupid as McDonald's ignoring the hundreds of other previous complaints about their hot coffee burning people.

#34 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:47 PM

Yes, almost as stupid as McDonald's ignoring the hundreds of other previous complaints about their hot coffee burning people.


Hot coffee...imagine that.
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#35 OFFLINE   pdxBeav

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

Hot coffee...imagine that.


Too bad the defense lawyers didn't use that line. Maybe the jury would've have seen it that way too. ;)

#36 OFFLINE   ThomasM

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:06 PM

Every offer DirecTV sends out in print advertising, TV ads, mailers, etc. contains many lines of "fine print". Even though I've been a customer for over 12 years, I always read the fine print for amusement.

I must admit, DirecTV has come up with more hoops to jump through than most other companies including the nonsense of mailing in "rebates" by certain time frames to get the advertised price. In addition, well known terminology like "DVR fee", "HD fee", and "additional receiver fee" have been combined and replaced with confusing terms like "advanced receiver fee" and "additional TV".

In addition, there are numerous other "gotcha's" that need real digging to reveal, such as the fact that changing a package (or changing almost anything) during the first year will end the promotional pricing.

Some things are conveniently never mentioned-like the $20 S & H fee to get a failed leased receiver replaced. Instead, installers push the "protection plan" which is considerably more expensive and generally for most subscribers unnecessary.

Of course, like the thread poster pointed out the buyer needs to investigate all aspects before signing a contract for two years of service. I wonder if the same people who don't completely check out DirecTV have the same problem with a two year cellphone agreement. Maybe they just go prepaid.... :rolleyes:

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#37 OFFLINE   goinsleeper

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:18 PM

There's a key difference between the two temperature points: 185 degrees is scalding, 150 degrees is not. A representative of McDonalds testified that (in so many words) they didn't care that 185 degrees was a scalding temperature, despite there being several hundred reports of other people burning themselves badly. McDonalds' actions in this case were found to be reckless, willful and callous.

McDonalds deserved to be sued in this case, as silly as it sounds.


I disagree. They produce their coffee for those who walk in and those who are buying it on the way to work. The coffee is made as hot as it is for those who need to keep it warm while traveling to work. If you're not going to be able to drink it for 45 minutes, it needs to be made hot enough to keep a good heat by the time you can. Putting hot coffee between your legs isn't very bright, yet she was allowed to operate a motor vehicle. Gives me the urge to just stay at home really.

#38 OFFLINE   Davenlr

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:25 PM

I disagree. They produce their coffee for those who walk in and those who are buying it on the way to work.


They all use the same commercial coffee equipment as every other restaurant and truck stop. I install them. The standard default brewing temperature is 200f for brewers using glass or metal pots, and 205f for brewers using thermal airpots. This allows the coffee to be brewed at its optimal extraction temperature of 190-195 degrees.

Coffee sold anywhere using commercial brewers is going to be the same temperature, unless it sits in the pot a while with the warmer plate turned off.

McDonalds brewers are usually set to disable the brewer until the water temperature is within 5 degrees of its set brew temperature. This makes sure they dont brew back to back pots with less than optimum water temperature.

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#39 OFFLINE   pdxBeav

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

I disagree. They produce their coffee for those who walk in and those who are buying it on the way to work. The coffee is made as hot as it is for those who need to keep it warm while traveling to work. If you're not going to be able to drink it for 45 minutes, it needs to be made hot enough to keep a good heat by the time you can. Putting hot coffee between your legs isn't very bright, yet she was allowed to operate a motor vehicle. Gives me the urge to just stay at home really.


!rolling

It's quite amusing to see what people keep coming up with to try to convince themselves that this was a frivolous lawsuit. It was handled in court the way it should have been.

#40 OFFLINE   Herdfan

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 09:42 AM

!rolling

It's quite amusing to see what people keep coming up with to try to convince themselves that this was a frivolous lawsuit. It was handled in court the way it should have been.


I don't think it was frivolous, but I do think the jury did not place enough responsibility on her. It was all about what McDonald's did and not about what she did. She should have been held at least partially responsible.

If she had been handed the cup and it was too hot to hold and she dropped it in her lap, then that is one thing. But she put a cup of hot coffee between her legs. That is just not bright whether the coffee is 150 or 190 degrees.

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