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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Super Bowl Halftime looks pre-recorded


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55 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   pdxBeav

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:51 AM

23.976 fps for the halftime show. 29.97 fps for everything else. They do this for the Victoria's Secret show each year as well.


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#27 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:03 PM

What's the point of it, just to create a classic film-look?

#28 ONLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

What's the point of it, just to create a classic film-look?


That's precisely my original question. Like I said, it's a stupid look for live television. If it's supposed to look like a filmed concert, maybe one can get used to it given enough time.

I could also try to guess that there might be other reasons than artistic choice. I do remember the first HD broadcast of VSFS and the picture was pretty badly blocked up by the overuse of strobe lights.

It could also be to save bandwidth for people to download to phones.

IMO the only advantage of "film-look" to the average user is when saving to DVD and playing back on an old 480 progressive TV, the picture looks a bit sharper.

#29 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:59 PM

Film-look is very psychological. Folks associate film with iconic, classic images that rise above cheap, live, hi-def video. It's the problem with the new Hobbit film at 48 fps, folks are saying it looks like a cheap afternoon soap opera because it's so over-crisp, video-looking and live-appearing. It cheapens the perception of the image. Video = cheap and disposable. Film = Metavalues and quality.

#30 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:46 AM

It was not shot on film. The frame rate is different. That is the only reason it appeared to have a film-like appearance. There were no issues with color saturation or balance.

There were huge issues with the color saturation and balance. Issues that you insist could not be attributed to frame rate.

Live video, regardless of frame rate, should look like live video, right?

For their part, Canon offers a CINE mode:

The separate CINE setting on the HG10 adjusts the color and tonal characteristics of the image, giving the look and feel of a movie shown in a theater.

This is separate and apart from the funky sampling done to get a 24fps recording laid on tape at 60fps interlaced.

So while changing the frame rate changes the frame rate, it takes some proc amp wizardry to truly achieve the look and feel of film.
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#31 OFFLINE   Hoosier205

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 01:27 AM

There were huge issues with the color saturation and balance. Issues that you insist could not be attributed to frame rate.


What (display) did you view these supposed "issues" on?


This is separate and apart from the funky sampling done to get a 24fps recording laid on tape at 60fps interlaced.


60 fps? Want to try that again? That's HFR territory.

Edited by Hoosier205, 08 February 2013 - 01:57 AM.

DTV = Digital Television

#32 OFFLINE   Maruuk

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Posted 08 February 2013 - 02:38 AM

Still, the quickest path to film-look is 24fps.

#33 ONLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 02:03 AM

Thought I'd bump this thread.  I still have the same gripe and don't understand why change the framerate look?   Could you imagine how crappy the game would look if it were juddered like that?

 

I'm sure that there's way more than framerate to complain about (not much left to degrade in this particular case - unless you're a KP fan - )  but this issue just irks me.  NBC does this for their "live broadcast" holiday performances, too (SOM, PP).   Not only you get jerky picture, but any movement of the camera causes very bad blurring in this mode.



#34 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 10:18 AM

Perhaps it's your TV. My Sammy plasma had no ill artifacts. 


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#35 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 03:56 PM

Perhaps it's your TV. My Sammy plasma had no ill artifacts. 

 

Looked pretty smooth on my Samsung DLP too.


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#36 ONLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 05:29 PM

There's nothing wrong with my display.  This was crappy and juddered.  The rest of the game looked fantastic, PQ-wise.  Judder just completely destroys the feel of live TV.   

 

There were maybe a couple of overhead shots featuring slower movement that didn't seem to suffer as much.  But the rest of the show... Yuck!



#37 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 07:21 PM

There's nothing wrong with my display.  This was crappy and juddered.  The rest of the game looked fantastic, PQ-wise.  Judder just completely destroys the feel of live TV.   

 

Does the fact that others don't experience judder on the same show might mean that the problem lies in your setup, most likely the display?

What is your setup? 


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#38 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 08:26 PM

FWIW, i did not notice anything either on my set up.  It looked smooth


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#39 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 02 February 2015 - 09:24 PM

There's nothing wrong with my display.  This was crappy and juddered.  The rest of the game looked fantastic, PQ-wise.  Judder just completely destroys the feel of live TV.   

 

There were maybe a couple of overhead shots featuring slower movement that didn't seem to suffer as much.  But the rest of the show... Yuck!

 

Lowest common denominator.....  No one else has the issue, only you.


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#40 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 09:19 AM

Perhaps it's your TV. My Sammy plasma had no ill artifacts.

I was watching a poorly tuned Samsung plasma on Comcast and there were a couple of kinds of artifacts. It was not a good experience.
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#41 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 11:25 AM

I recorded the game and I watched the halftime show again last night and I did not have a problem at all with it.


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#42 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 02:24 PM

I was watching a poorly tuned Samsung plasma on Comcast and there were a couple of kinds of artifacts. It was not a good experience.

 

Key words being Comcast and poorly tuned, no? 

 

What got into you to put up with such nonsense??  :)


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#43 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 05:54 PM

I recorded the game and I watched the halftime show again last night and I did not have a problem at all with it.


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#44 ONLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 07:58 PM

I guess either no one else is all that much bothered by falsely-introduced judder (and enjoy the fake film-look) or you all have displays with interpolating frame rate software that works like it's supposed to.  (Some lower-end displays with this ability don't do it all that well, and the picture can tear and suffer.)  My set has no such software.  What's broadcast is what I get.  If I had it I would enable it and perhaps I wouldn't be complaining here.  As I've said, the  rest of the broadcast wasn't a problem for me at all.



#45 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 03 February 2015 - 09:35 PM

I guess either no one else is all that much bothered by falsely-introduced judder (and enjoy the fake film-look)

 

I would be bothered if it was actually there.


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#46 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 02:31 PM

Like the others have said none of us had the issue.  Could you tell us who your provider is, and what equipment you were watching it on, that might help us figure out why you saw the issue.

 

I did have some problems with macroblocking during some of the scenes where there were a lot of different colors moving around rapidly, but that is not frame rate issues.  That is most likely my local channel bitstarving the broadcast.


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#47 ONLINE   Delroy E Walleye

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 01:44 AM

Ok.  One last rant on this topic and I think I'll be ready to "put this baby to bed."  If you you've not read this thread from the beginning then you might not be understanding of my major gripe here (with apologies to Hoosier205 - who "gets" it, BTW - because I am whining.  And to Harsh: I do believe that this year the saturation may have been messed with, as well.)

 

All I can say is that if you're not bothered by "judder" than most likely you have no problems with the way these halftime shows look (yes, I know I'm in the minority, here).  Either that, or your set is correcting this intentional "artifact" - restoring the original motion - or your vision simply doesn't detect the difference between 60 field-per-second (or frames, in the case of 720p) and 30 or 24fps, or (probably like most folks) you simply don't care (nor should you, necessarily).

 

Since I was very young I understood the apparent differences between live (and/or videotaped) 60 field-per-second TV signals and programming that consisted of filmed content by the way they looked on television, even though I had little knowledge of the technical processes involved ("how nice for me" right?).

 

I guess I'm just an old stick-in-the-mud and I believe that "live" TV ought to look live, and not juddered whether or not trying to "look" like film.  I'm also aware of the reverse being true when folks don't like the effect that "smooth-motion"-type processing creates when watching films on TV, sometimes called "the soap opera-effect."

 

While pondering this topic today, I decided to go a few years back into my "archives" and view a few halftime shows past.  These are my observations-based on appearance (and playing around with FBF):

 

2011 [FOX] Super Bowl XLV     (2011) Fergie & the Peas: No Judder [left intact at 60fps]
                                      
2012 [NBC] Super Bowl XLVI    (2012) Madonna: Juddered to 30fps

2013 [CBS] Super Bowl XLVII   (2013) Beyonce: Juddered to 30fps

2014 [FOX] Super Bowl XLVIII  (2014) Bruno Mars:  No Judder

2015 [NBC] Super Bowl XLVIIII (2015) Katy Perry: Juddered to 30fps - except for one direct overhead shot when the "retro" swimwear ladies were lying down.

 

The only "legitimate" reason I can possibly come up with for why this might be being done may have something to do with making a 60 field-per-second video more easily transmitted for streaming to other devices.  Heck, even I know that my older smart phone can't handle 60fps - it barely deals with 30.  I just wish that if this is the case they would do it "downstream" of the broadcast rather than "upstream."  I want the full 60fps "live" TV experience on my TV!

 

(I also went back into "Grandma's DVR" to re-asses her original recording of NBC's "First broadcast of its kind in over 50 years" - which looked anything but live - of the The Sound Of Music Live! [2013]  It, too, was "juddered" down to 30 [probably for the same "streaming" reasons].  It looked awful, and IIRC I've most likely got a rant in that associated thread for the same reason.)

 

I'm going to relent now and live with these from here on out.  I believe there may be ways to "fix" these after the fact, maybe even with downloadable software (or a different display that has it built-in).

 

It's nice to have a place to vent about these "silly" things where many of us take our TV viewing a bit too seriously, and many, many thanks go to those trying to help and that have helped us in the past to deal with our frustrations. :)

 

P.S. For those still interested, when I started this thread my two main HDTVs were direct-view CRTs, and my current set is a lower-cost LG 60" 1080p plasma, mfd in late 2013 and deployed last spring.  It's connected by HDMI to DirecTV HD service.  I'm well aware that although it says 600Hz "sub field driving" on the box, this is just a "gimmick" that keeps the plasma going or something, and has little to do with actual refresh rate of the picture.  It's 60Hz.  However, I'll restate here that PQ of the game itself looked spectacular (as well as almost any other HD programming viewed on this set). 

 

Look, I'm not disagreeing that the PQ of the halftimes isn't "bad," I just don't like judder in my live TV broadcasts.  It's a personal thing.  Thanks, again.

 

P.P.S.  I've got three sources of NBC HD (all through D*sat):  E/W (NY/LA) and KARE (TC, MN).  All pretty much the same PQ (but I was tuned mostly to WC [LA] so we could see the "over-hyped-about" Carl's "no hormones" commercial).



#48 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 08:00 AM

 

All I can say is that if you're not bothered by "judder" than most likely you have no problems with the way these halftime shows look

 

It's impossible to be bothered by something that doesn't exist.  


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#49 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 09:02 AM

It's impossible to be bothered by something that doesn't exist.

Then logically, the problem must have existed.

That some video processors dealt with it doesn't mean it didn't exist. The 2013 Samsung TV I was watching was set to "sear" and the distraction was considerable.
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#50 OFFLINE   tsmacro

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 11:11 AM

 

 

2011 [FOX] Super Bowl XLV     (2011) Fergie & the Peas: No Judder [left intact at 60fps]
                                      
2012 [NBC] Super Bowl XLVI    (2012) Madonna: Juddered to 30fps

2013 [CBS] Super Bowl XLVII   (2013) Beyonce: Juddered to 30fps

2014 [FOX] Super Bowl XLVIII  (2014) Bruno Mars:  No Judder

2015 [NBC] Super Bowl XLVIIII (2015) Katy Perry: Juddered to 30fps - except for one direct overhead shot when the "retro" swimwear ladies were lying down.

 

 

So it doesn't happen the years that Fox has the Superbowl according to your above info. Sounds like you need to let NBC and CBS know how you feel about "judder".




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