Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

New one on me "Cant retain program"


  • Please log in to reply
13 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   t_h

t_h

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 818 posts
Joined: Mar 07, 2008

Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:58 AM

My old HR20 got flaky this morning, not wanting to stream mrv to an hr24 saying "no audio/video packets". So I power cycled it (pulled plug, waited 30 seconds, put the power back in).

When it came up, about half the programming was gone, and the history was loaded with "deleted, error 2004, unable to retain program"...not the exact text but I think everything thats important.

Fortunately its the kids dvr, so I don't think anything important went away.

However, if its the case that on a power loss I can plausibly lose part or most or all of my recordings, and there isn't anything I can do about that, that would be good to know...

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   CCarncross

CCarncross

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 7,058 posts
  • LocationJackson
Joined: Jul 19, 2005

Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:41 PM

HDD is failing....power cycling like that is not advisable. Unless it is not responding to remote commands, you should use the menus and choose, settings--reset--restart receiver. This doesnt generally happen on a dvr with a healthy hard drive.

#3 OFFLINE   GBFAN

GBFAN

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 334 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 06 February 2013 - 01:42 PM

In most cases when you get "no audio/video packets", you should just do a menu reset. Recordings are not generally lost when you lose power. It could depend on what the DVR was in the process of doing when it lost power or the hard drive could be going bad.

#4 OFFLINE   t_h

t_h

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 818 posts
Joined: Mar 07, 2008

Posted 07 February 2013 - 01:57 PM

I usually do a menu reset but didn't have time. We do also have plenty of power outages where I wouldn't be able to make that choice. In any case, while I'd expect some uncomitted writes to be lost, I wouldn't expect a loss of power to cause half the drives contents to be deleted.

I'll check the drive to see if it reports any errors.

#5 OFFLINE   Richierich

Richierich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 8,479 posts
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 07 February 2013 - 02:54 PM

I usually do a menu reset but didn't have time. We do also have plenty of power outages where I wouldn't be able to make that choice. In any case, while I'd expect some uncomitted writes to be lost, I wouldn't expect a loss of power to cause half the drives contents to be deleted.

I'll check the drive to see if it reports any errors.


You need to get an APC UPS Battery Backup for help in avoiding Rebooting and to keep your hard drive healthy as Hard Drive Reboots due to a Power Outage is very bad for your hard drive.
*
DIRECTV CUSTOMER SINCE 1997
Here's My Setup

#6 ONLINE   bjdotson

bjdotson

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 278 posts
Joined: Feb 20, 2007

Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:29 PM

You need to get an APC UPS Battery Backup for help in avoiding Rebooting and to keep your hard drive healthy as Hard Drive Reboots due to a Power Outage is very bad for your hard drive.


Which is exactly why he is probably having the problem that he is having.

#7 OFFLINE   t_h

t_h

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 818 posts
Joined: Mar 07, 2008

Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:14 PM

Sorry, but a consumer electronics device should be able to handle a power loss without eating half the data on the drive. I shouldn't have to buy a UPS to keep it from corrupting.

The drive passes all the basic tests. Its running the long smart test now, which as described is long.

#8 OFFLINE   CCarncross

CCarncross

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 7,058 posts
  • LocationJackson
Joined: Jul 19, 2005

Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:20 PM

It would be nice if consumer electronics devices with HDD's were always able to handle power loss with out partially self-destructing, but thats not the way they work. We lost 10 HDD's during our last power outage at my place of employment in virtually brand new pcs....now you say it was in your old flaky HR20, which could be up to 6 years old. You're really not being realistic if you think they should be immune. Thats why those of us that care enough not to lose our recordings use battery backups to help mitigate the chance of data loss.

#9 OFFLINE   gov

gov

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,100 posts
Joined: Jan 10, 2013

Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:06 AM

Do we know if generally speaking a power loss would physically damage the HDD, or mess up the information on the HDD sufficiently that despite being physically OK, it becomes unusable because it is scrambled?

Seems like if it is the 2nd one, the software gurus need some more kibble in their bowls.

#10 OFFLINE   CCarncross

CCarncross

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 7,058 posts
  • LocationJackson
Joined: Jul 19, 2005

Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:27 AM

Do we know if generally speaking a power loss would physically damage the HDD, or mess up the information on the HDD sufficiently that despite being physically OK, it becomes unusable because it is scrambled?

Seems like if it is the 2nd one, the software gurus need some more kibble in their bowls.


Like I mentioned in a post above, we lost 10 drives due to a power outage the other day. They all just went click-click-click.....

#11 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 21,340 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 08 February 2013 - 10:46 AM

Do we know if generally speaking a power loss would physically damage the HDD, or mess up the information on the HDD sufficiently that despite being physically OK, it becomes unusable because it is scrambled?


It's never happened to me, altho I do have several UPS devices, I don't have every HR hooked up to one. Still, never lost anything due to power failures that I can recall.

Rich

#12 OFFLINE   TBoneit

TBoneit

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,290 posts
Joined: Jul 27, 2006

Posted 08 February 2013 - 11:36 AM

You need to get an APC UPS Battery Backup for help in avoiding Rebooting and to keep your hard drive healthy as Hard Drive Reboots due to a Power Outage is very bad for your hard drive.


Hi Richierich, I find that hard to believe I reboots were bad for a hard drive computer users would have noticed that security updates were killing their drives.

Not to mention my turning the computer on and off 3 times a day would have killed mine.
I always shut the workstations of before leaving for home from work and restart in the morning. No Problems

Cheers

Do we know if generally speaking a power loss would physically damage the HDD, or mess up the information on the HDD sufficiently that despite being physically OK, it becomes unusable because it is scrambled?

Seems like if it is the 2nd one, the software gurus need some more kibble in their bowls.


I can relate to computers here. Power loss at just the right moment can trash the windows operating system sometimes permanently. Windows 7 and 8 being better than the older Windows were.

Difference is Windows possibly has better disk checking software. And it can be run from a DVD drive if the hard drive is corrupted beyond booting unlike a DVR.

I've never lost a hard drive from power outages of power off. I have lost power supplies that way. The Heads in the drive autopark as the drive spins down. I would guess that a hard shaking as from an earthquake could also damage a hard drive. Possibly sitting the DVR on Your subwoofer could too.

Good Luck
Remember when your kids were the TV set's remote control?

#13 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Registered
  • 3,642 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 13 February 2013 - 07:28 PM

Sorry, but a consumer electronics device should be able to handle a power loss without eating half the data on the drive. I shouldn't have to buy a UPS to keep it from corrupting...

When a HDD loses power, all that happens is the actuator retracts safely on its physical spring to a neutral location, and the platters spin down. None of that is deleterious in any way to the physical health of the HDD.

So, what about the data? If you do a rude power down, any file being read is not affected, other than you are no longer reading it. But that is exactly what you expected. Any file being written is also no longer being written, and all of this happens abruptly. If you do a menu reset, the HDD finishes the last task given it (read a sector, write to a sector) and then goes idle waiting for the reboot to begin. Courteous? Yes. Necessary? Not particularly.

About the only difference is what happens to the files being written, and whether that is important or not (it's not). Files being written generally fall into two categories, media and indexing files. If you interrupt writing media, that recording will be lost (sometimes part of it might survive). But you already know that, because you chose to not care about media currently being written when you decided to reboot, so it does not matter.

The DVR is constantly doing background indexing tasks, pausing only for more important tasks like accepting a remote control or button command. If you interrupt that process with a rude shut down, it simply picks up just before where it left off once the reboot finishes, so again, it really does not matter.

There is one small possibility, which is that as the actuator retracts in a rude shutdown that a small amount of data can be sprayed over indiscriminate areas of the platter. If that area turns out to be where the catalog database lives, some shows may be lost due to that data becoming corrupted (any recording without kosher intact DB entries to match it at bootup will be deleted in the sanity check; auditing all of those DB entries against actual media at bootup is one of the large reasons why booting a DVR takes so long).

A menu shutdown/reboot avoids this tiniest of caveats completely (wait for the reboot to begin, then pull the power plug), but the chances of anything bad happening are next to nil anyway. So again, it really does not matter.

Bottom line, a rude shutdown being hard on the HDD is a superstitious behavior theory that should be lined up against a wall and shot (maybe along with the people who keep telling us this fairytale); at the end of the day it is no harder on the HDD than a menu shutdown. This doomsday scenario of the actuator getting bent or digging large divots in the media platter is complete fantasy. But the "sprayed data" scenario, as unlikely as it is problematic, is real. So if so, then why tempt fate, even if the odds are so greatly with you? For that very slim reason and that reason only, the menu reboot is recommended.

So it is unlikely that the reboot did anything to the recordings, other than delete those that had screwy DB entries representing them, and that much more than likely did not result from a rude shutdown. It could be that the HDD was having cataloging issues for some time, and the sanity check at reboot is simply the moment they were jettisoned, which also wipes the DB of any record of them.

That said, a UPS is still a good idea for a lot of other reasons. But no UPS ever protected any HDD from physical damage, or data damage that would have been significant.

Edited by TomCat, 13 February 2013 - 07:33 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#14 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 21,340 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 14 February 2013 - 11:22 AM

When a HDD loses power, all that happens is the actuator retracts safely on its physical spring to a neutral location, and the platters spin down. None of that is deleterious in any way to the physical health of the HDD.

So, what about the data? If you do a rude power down, any file being read is not affected, other than you are no longer reading it. But that is exactly what you expected. Any file being written is also no longer being written, and all of this happens abruptly. If you do a menu reset, the HDD finishes the last task given it (read a sector, write to a sector) and then goes idle waiting for the reboot to begin. Courteous? Yes. Necessary? Not particularly.

About the only difference is what happens to the files being written, and whether that is important or not (it's not). Files being written generally fall into two categories, media and indexing files. If you interrupt writing media, that recording will be lost (sometimes part of it might survive). But you already know that, because you chose to not care about media currently being written when you decided to reboot, so it does not matter.

The DVR is constantly doing background indexing tasks, pausing only for more important tasks like accepting a remote control or button command. If you interrupt that process with a rude shut down, it simply picks up just before where it left off once the reboot finishes, so again, it really does not matter.

There is one small possibility, which is that as the actuator retracts in a rude shutdown that a small amount of data can be sprayed over indiscriminate areas of the platter. If that area turns out to be where the catalog database lives, some shows may be lost due to that data becoming corrupted (any recording without kosher intact DB entries to match it at bootup will be deleted in the sanity check; auditing all of those DB entries against actual media at bootup is one of the large reasons why booting a DVR takes so long).

A menu shutdown/reboot avoids this tiniest of caveats completely (wait for the reboot to begin, then pull the power plug), but the chances of anything bad happening are next to nil anyway. So again, it really does not matter.

Bottom line, a rude shutdown being hard on the HDD is a superstitious behavior theory that should be lined up against a wall and shot (maybe along with the people who keep telling us this fairytale); at the end of the day it is no harder on the HDD than a menu shutdown. This doomsday scenario of the actuator getting bent or digging large divots in the media platter is complete fantasy. But the "sprayed data" scenario, as unlikely as it is problematic, is real. So if so, then why tempt fate, even if the odds are so greatly with you? For that very slim reason and that reason only, the menu reboot is recommended.

So it is unlikely that the reboot did anything to the recordings, other than delete those that had screwy DB entries representing them, and that much more than likely did not result from a rude shutdown. It could be that the HDD was having cataloging issues for some time, and the sanity check at reboot is simply the moment they were jettisoned, which also wipes the DB of any record of them.

That said, a UPS is still a good idea for a lot of other reasons. But no UPS ever protected any HDD from physical damage, or data damage that would have been significant.


I gotta agree with this. I've been pulling the plug on DVRs and computers for years and I've never had a problem. Some might argue that with all the bad DVRs I've had over the years, that I'm wrong about this, but I don't think so. I've never had an HDD failure after pulling the plug. I've never seen any problems with pulling the plugs after rebooting. I can only remember a couple HDD failures, never on a computer, and I'm not sure those HDDs were bad.

Rich




Protected By... spam firewall...And...