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Fox is attacking the Hopper, Sling Adapter and Dish Anywhere now


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#61 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:41 PM

With all the DVR's in use today and OTA channels screaming they are hurting for money, dont you think they need to come up with a different source of revenue? You either change with the times or get left in the dust.


Yes... but what many fail to recognize is that WE will be that different source of revenue. If ad revenue shrinks, then the other logical way for them to get money will be to charge the viewer.

People seem to think they can get something for nothing without consequences.

This would make every DVR on the market illegal. We all have the ability to skip commercials on recorded content. This is really just the next evolution of a DVR. I dont see how the big 4 networks can be okay with DVR's but not with this new feature.

I guess people who use OTA and something like a TiVo are really sticking it to them then since they are not paying at all for the big 4. Time to figure out how else to get the funds needed.


No. There is a HUGE difference between me recording something and having to manually skip (or ignore) commercials vs Dish implementing a feature that I can enable once and have it automatically skip all the commercials.

Me doing it manually requires interaction... which means I have to be interactively watching... which means I might see parts of commercials while I skip/FFwd ahead and I might stop if something looks interesting.

But the automatic skip means one jump across 95% of the commercial break... so I see virtually nothing... and have no reason to check a commercial out... and it does it for every break.

That is why this is an issue. They can't force us to watch commercials. Even before the DVR, and before VHS/Beta... you can leave the room during a commercial... but at least the commercial still played... and even with a DVR or VHS/Beta you had to see bits and pieces as you skipped past them manually.

AutoHop results in automatic non-viewing once you turn it on... and giving viewers the ability to turn it on means more people will do it than if they had to do it manually. People are inherently lazy and might leave the remote down during a commercial break or forget to skip... but AutoHop takes that away with a big "do you want to enable" banner at the beginning and once you say yes it is Calgon go away (to paraphrase an old commercial) for commercials for that show.

I completely understand why the networks don't like this... and Dish is not only applying it just to OTA channels via satellite and not ALL commercial TV... but they are only applying it during primetime, which is probably when those networks make most of their revenue.

So... Dish isn't really about providing a feature to customers who "want to skip commercials" as much as they are about sticking it to those four channels.

It's fine... but everyone should be aware there will be backlash. When the networks lose these lawsuits (and they should lose them)... expect higher prices to come immediately on the next negotiations with each one. That is where this will head in a hurry.

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#62 OFFLINE   david_jr

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:59 PM

But our soap will be getting cheaper since the soap companies won't be spending their money on TV ads.:D

#63 OFFLINE   joshjr

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 01:59 PM

Yes... but what many fail to recognize is that WE will be that different source of revenue. If ad revenue shrinks, then the other logical way for them to get money will be to charge the viewer.

People seem to think they can get something for nothing without consequences.



No. There is a HUGE difference between me recording something and having to manually skip (or ignore) commercials vs Dish implementing a feature that I can enable once and have it automatically skip all the commercials.

Me doing it manually requires interaction... which means I have to be interactively watching... which means I might see parts of commercials while I skip/FFwd ahead and I might stop if something looks interesting.

But the automatic skip means one jump across 95% of the commercial break... so I see virtually nothing... and have no reason to check a commercial out... and it does it for every break.

That is why this is an issue. They can't force us to watch commercials. Even before the DVR, and before VHS/Beta... you can leave the room during a commercial... but at least the commercial still played... and even with a DVR or VHS/Beta you had to see bits and pieces as you skipped past them manually.

AutoHop results in automatic non-viewing once you turn it on... and giving viewers the ability to turn it on means more people will do it than if they had to do it manually. People are inherently lazy and might leave the remote down during a commercial break or forget to skip... but AutoHop takes that away with a big "do you want to enable" banner at the beginning and once you say yes it is Calgon go away (to paraphrase an old commercial) for commercials for that show.

I completely understand why the networks don't like this... and Dish is not only applying it just to OTA channels via satellite and not ALL commercial TV... but they are only applying it during primetime, which is probably when those networks make most of their revenue.

So... Dish isn't really about providing a feature to customers who "want to skip commercials" as much as they are about sticking it to those four channels.

It's fine... but everyone should be aware there will be backlash. When the networks lose these lawsuits (and they should lose them)... expect higher prices to come immediately on the next negotiations with each one. That is where this will head in a hurry.


I understand what you are saying and I also understand the point of view from the stations. I think you are missing part of the point as well. If people we not able to get OTA for free then the stations wouldn't have to charge such an increase every time as they would be getting paid by everyone viewing their channels.

Isnt radio dying out too partially because people dont like the interruptions. Its gonna happen. People find alternatives. Also the TV stations are not overly worried about commercials, when you watch something on their website you usually have to get through 1 commercial. If they were really being strapped for cash on add revenue then why do they not force online watchers to watch 4-6 commercials each break?

They can think they are going to be the only ones allowed to make advances in the game. There must be a reason they only usually have 1 commercial online for the breaks. Might it have something to do with people not wanting to watch commercials?
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#64 OFFLINE   speedy4022

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

Only one thing dish needs to remember you may win now but wait until you have renew carry agreements. I see some nasty negotiations in the future with the networks.
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#65 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:35 PM

Also the TV stations are not overly worried about commercials, when you watch something on their website you usually have to get through 1 commercial. If they were really being strapped for cash on add revenue then why do they not force online watchers to watch 4-6 commercials each break?

They can think they are going to be the only ones allowed to make advances in the game. There must be a reason they only usually have 1 commercial online for the breaks. Might it have something to do with people not wanting to watch commercials?


Apples and oranges.

The programs are only online for viewing AFTER they have aired on commercial TV... which means after they have satisfied the requirements to the advertisers who paid for commercial time during the initial broadcast.

That is why they don't put it on the Web first... and why some episodes you have to wait a week before you can watch them online.

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#66 OFFLINE   joshjr

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:43 PM

Apples and oranges.

The programs are only online for viewing AFTER they have aired on commercial TV... which means after they have satisfied the requirements to the advertisers who paid for commercial time during the initial broadcast.

That is why they don't put it on the Web first... and why some episodes you have to wait a week before you can watch them online.


I noticed you chose not to comment on giving their signal away free. If everyone watching their content was paying or waiting to watch it online it would help some. Fact is online offers less commercials and its after it originally aired. How is a DVR any different? Its after it aired and its up to us if we want less or no commercials?
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#67 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:16 PM

I noticed you chose not to comment on giving their signal away free. If everyone watching their content was paying or waiting to watch it online it would help some. Fact is online offers less commercials and its after it originally aired. How is a DVR any different? Its after it aired and its up to us if we want less or no commercials?


You're still missing apples and oranges.

OTA is free. You can watch it free all you want. Locals delivered by satellite or cable might not be free, and there is no guarantee that they will be. We have threads devoted to that in the past.

Meanwhile... Showing it online after the original broadcast is completely different. advertisers pay for commercials during the original OTA broadcast... not for the online delivery a week later.

You recording on your DVR is something you can watch the same way you would have live... you can watch commercials or you can make an effort to ignore them. Your choice... same as when it aired live.

AutoHop, however, takes the interactivity out of it. Press one button at the beginning and no more interacting required and it jumps past the commercials so you don't see hardly anything... unlike manual intervention where you have to fast-forward through and might see something or skip forward/skip back where you see snippets as you adjust through the break.

It really isn't rocket science.

And it doesn't even matter what any of us say... if the advertising revenue dries up, then prices will go up or programming will go away. That is the end-truth here.

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#68 OFFLINE   koralis

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 06:49 AM

.

We wouldn't need the Hopper or skip ahead if the sound wasn't so D... LOUD.
.


That's not true. The problem is that literally 1/3 of the programming time is commercials. If it was more like 1/5 then people wouldn't have been searching for a solution. Greed caused the problem... they went too far.

#69 OFFLINE   david_jr

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 09:24 AM

You're still missing apples and oranges.

OTA is free. You can watch it free all you want. Locals delivered by satellite or cable might not be free, and there is no guarantee that they will be. We have threads devoted to that in the past.

Meanwhile... Showing it online after the original broadcast is completely different. advertisers pay for commercials during the original OTA broadcast... not for the online delivery a week later.

You recording on your DVR is something you can watch the same way you would have live... you can watch commercials or you can make an effort to ignore them. Your choice... same as when it aired live.

AutoHop, however, takes the interactivity out of it. Press one button at the beginning and no more interacting required and it jumps past the commercials so you don't see hardly anything... unlike manual intervention where you have to fast-forward through and might see something or skip forward/skip back where you see snippets as you adjust through the break.

It really isn't rocket science.

And it doesn't even matter what any of us say... if the advertising revenue dries up, then prices will go up or programming will go away. That is the end-truth here.


You are correct it doesn't matter what we say. The question I would pose then is how much interaction is required to make jumping past commercials legal. Is the legal standard "customer interaction"? Or a certain degree of interaction?

#70 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 01:30 PM

You are correct it doesn't matter what we say. The question I would pose then is how much interaction is required to make jumping past commercials legal. Is the legal standard "customer interaction"? Or a certain degree of interaction?


Well, that is the question in the courts, right? On the one extreme: let's assume Dish offered a feature in which they strip all of the commercials from the network shows before it is delivered to your receiver. So the only thing being delivered to your IRD was the programming, with no commercials.

I don't think many here would argue that this would be legal or that Dish had the right to do this.

So let's take the next step: what if you could push a button on your IRD and all of the shows for the evening would be delivered with no commercials. Same as above, but you had to push a button the the receiver to tell Dish you wanted the programming delivered with no commercials.

Would that be legal for Dish? Probably not.

So the next step: Dish delivers the programming to your IRD with all the commercials in them, but they provide a button that you can push to have the programs delivered from the IRD to your TV with no commercials in them.

Is that legal? Is it that much different from pushing a button and having Dish deliver the programming without the commercials in them?

I'm not making an argument one way or the other, just analyzing,

#71 OFFLINE   tampa8

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

I would be more sympathetic to the affiliates/networks if they weren't trying to have it all ways. They get the airways, no cable channels can have, in exchange for free programming. They have decided when it's over Cable/Satellite it should not be free because they should get money for that, and in fact try and hold the carriers hostage. There should be no money made on it, for the Networks or the carriers. Both benefit from it. The carriers, or at least Dish and Direct are not making any real money on them, the cost of $5 or so must just about cover the costs of providing them. But the networks want to charge YOU to watch what should be free programming. Then, they want to dictate how and when you will watch it. They fought DVR's etc.. just like what they are doing now. I see it as no more than a fair use issue. They are going to have to find a way to make it that Dish is skipping the commercials, not the user. The user has to initiate it, period. The fact that technology, just like a DVR was in it's time, gets better does not change the fact the user is making the decision.

The Networks need to adapt just like the Movie industry did, they went kicking and screaming into the new technologies but eventually figured it out.

#72 OFFLINE   joshjr

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 04:40 PM

+1
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#73 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

I would be more sympathetic to the affiliates/networks if they weren't trying to have it all ways. They get the airways, no cable channels can have, in exchange for free programming. They have decided when it's over Cable/Satellite it should not be free because they should get money for that, and in fact try and hold the carriers hostage. There should be no money made on it, for the Networks or the carriers. Both benefit from it. The carriers, or at least Dish and Direct are not making any real money on them, the cost of $5 or so must just about cover the costs of providing them. But the networks want to charge YOU to watch what should be free programming. Then, they want to dictate how and when you will watch it. They fought DVR's etc.. just like what they are doing now. I see it as no more than a fair use issue. They are going to have to find a way to make it that Dish is skipping the commercials, not the user. The user has to initiate it, period. The fact that technology, just like a DVR was in it's time, gets better does not change the fact the user is making the decision.

The Networks need to adapt just like the Movie industry did, they went kicking and screaming into the new technologies but eventually figured it out.


Do you really think the providers - Dish, DirectTV - aren't making money on the networks? You think the networks should give Dish and DirectTV the right to use their programming to make money for free?

Again, it's very simple in the long run. As soon as it is clear that people aren't watching commercials, the cost of the programming will go up to you and me, as companies are no longer wiling to pay the networks and provide the money for content. There's no such thing as "free" network TV. TV shows cost millions to produce and air and someone has to pay for it. If commercials are no longer watched, we'll be paying what we pay HBO and other premium channels for these networks.

#74 OFFLINE   bobukcat

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 05:04 PM

That is why this is an issue. They can't force us to watch commercials. Even before the DVR, and before VHS/Beta... you can leave the room during a commercial... but at least the commercial still played... and even with a DVR or VHS/Beta you had to see bits and pieces as you skipped past them manually.



I completely understand why the networks don't like this... and Dish is not only applying it just to OTA channels via satellite and not ALL commercial TV... but they are only applying it during primetime, which is probably when those networks make most of their revenue.

So... Dish isn't really about providing a feature to customers who "want to skip commercials" as much as they are about sticking it to those four channels.

It's fine... but everyone should be aware there will be backlash. When the networks lose these lawsuits (and they should lose them)... expect higher prices to come immediately on the next negotiations with each one. That is where this will head in a hurry.


Stewart I understand the point you are trying to make but you seem to also argue that having the commercial play, even if no one is watching it (gone to the bathroom, talking with others, or getting a snack) somehow adds value to that commercial versus it being skipped. "If a commercial airs but no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?" I'm sorry but that seems like a far reach to me, and the amount of time I pay any attention to the commercials while skipping through them (manually or with AutoHop) is only to see when what I actually want to watch is back on.

As for "sticking it to those four channels" - I believe they do Autohop the way they do is because it ties up resources / cost money to enable Autohop, program the hop times, etc. It makes sense to start with the programming that is most widely viewed and is consistent in all time zones to keep your cost / benefit higher. If the technology improves or the business model justifies expanding it I expect they will do so. I find it interesting they don't do Autohop during sports or news programs.

If technology and viewing habits dictate that the traditional advertising revenue model no longer works and we end up paying for programming in a different manner then that's evolution of the business and trying to stop progress is a fools errand. Look at it this way - perhaps the price of many goods and services would go down considerably if so much money isn't being spent on advertising budgets for those products.

If it were up to these same networks we wouldn't have DVRs or even VHS/Beta recording capability.

#75 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:08 AM

We actually find ourselves occasionally watching a commercial that catches our eye as we FF through them, and we'll watch commercials once in a while just because we're too lazy to grab the remote and push the forward button several times. Sometimes one of us will watch commercials while the other goes to the bathroom during a commercial break.

I think the incidence of commercials being seen is some level higher than what it is with autohop where it is just push a button once and forget it the rest of the night - well, of course that statement is true. I know it would be true for people like my parents and other low tech people I know, the kind of people who scroll through the channel list one channel at a time while I pull my hair out and try to tell them they can scroll a page at a time, LOL! They typically leave the commercials on now, but might push a single button once to skip the commercials for the evening.

After all, the whole point of Auto-hop is to make it much easier to skip commercials. If it was no different than FFing, it wouldn't be much of a feature.

And, once again, we do NOT want a world in which the networks no longer get funding from those commercials.

#76 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 11:40 AM

I think the incidence of commercials being seen is some level higher than what it is with autohop where it is just push a button once and forget it the rest of the night - well, of course that statement is true.

It would be truer if one used a correct description of AutoHop.

AutoHop does NOT have a feature where you press a button once and forget it for the rest of the night. The viewer must select AutoHop at the beginning of each playback ... not once per night. If the playback is stopped (not paused, but exiting the playback of that recording) the AutoHop question is presented again.

Plus AutoHop is intentionally not perfect. Due to slight differences in timing between the hundreds of stations across the nation airing broadcast network programming, AutoHop plays the first few seconds of the beginning of the break and the last few seconds of the break. It is designed this way to make sure customers don't miss part of a show due to one station being slightly off from others.

This provides a perfect opportunity for broadcasters to charge more to advertisers who are first or last in a commercial block (although most of the stations in my market promote their late news or Leno/Letterman in the last slot in each commercial break).

People who get the idea that enabling AutoHop means the customer will never see a commercial again are mistaken. People who believe that it is one choice per night to skip most commercials are also mistaken. AutoHop is a good feature and it makes skipping easier but it isn't 100% effective against commercials.

#77 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:30 PM

Stewart I understand the point you are trying to make but you seem to also argue that having the commercial play, even if no one is watching it (gone to the bathroom, talking with others, or getting a snack) somehow adds value to that commercial versus it being skipped. "If a commercial airs but no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?" I'm sorry but that seems like a far reach to me, and the amount of time I pay any attention to the commercials while skipping through them (manually or with AutoHop) is only to see when what I actually want to watch is back on.


That isn't the point I have been making, though. I have said that they can't make me watch a commercial... BUT before AutoHop at least they thought I might be watching them. With AutoHop, the advertiser's natural inclination is to assume I am not watching... and thus not want to pay as much for advertising.

The point is... AutoHop makes it far more likely that a viewer will skip commercials than just having a DVR. Without AutoHop you have to pick up the remote and fiddle during each commercial break... With AutoHop, one button at the beginning of the show takes care of it for the duration of that program.

IF you are an advertiser... that changes how you look at paying for commercials.

If technology and viewing habits dictate that the traditional advertising revenue model no longer works and we end up paying for programming in a different manner then that's evolution of the business and trying to stop progress is a fools errand.


This is true... and it is also what I have been saying. But many people seem to want to ignore reality and think there will be no evolution in the form of cost to consumers. People say "yay AutoHop" without thinking what it might do to their budget down the road. All I've been saying is "be careful what you wish for" because when Dish wins, and they should win, then don't go nuts when the prices go up for the OTA programming.

Look at it this way - perhaps the price of many goods and services would go down considerably if so much money isn't being spent on advertising budgets for those products.


No, don't hold your breath on that one. I've been saying for years that I think a lot of advertising is wasted money. Coke and Pepsi and most beers, for example, don't need to spend what they do just to let me know their product is still on the shelves... when I see them every week at the local stores.

BUT... to some extent, we should want advertisers to think their dollars spent matter... so they keep spending and subsidizing out TV viewing.

IF they all stop advertising tomorrow, they would just pocket the profit and not drop the prices on their products. You can bank on that.

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#78 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 01:27 PM

Since AutoHop does not work until the next day the networks and their advertisers should concentrate on "must see TV". Programming so good that people don't want to wait until the next day to skip commercials.

Think of a show such as The Big Bang Theory ... it airs on Thursday night and everyone who cares about that show tunes in and watches. If they go to work or talk to their friends on Friday they want to know what happened on the latest show - lest they have to say "spoiler alert" every time the topic comes up.

In order to see that program on "ad free TV" they would need to watch it after 1am ... which is entirely possible but that still gives them hours where they are out of the loop. Make the programming compelling enough that people WANT to see it same day and the advertisers have nothing to worry about from AutoHop ... they just have to worry about the people watching slightly delayed who are skipping commercials on their existing "non-controversial" DVRs. :)

It does not help their court case for the major networks to recognize and acknowledge the limitations of AutoHop. But the networks could do more damage to DISH by saying "AutoHop does not perform as advertised" than reinforcing the next day add skipping feature as being "you will never see an ad".

BTW: I loved the recent "spoiler alert" episode of The Big Bang Theory.

#79 OFFLINE   david_jr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 07:43 PM

I wonder what the stats are on those with Hoppers that actually use AutoHop. For instance, we have 2 Hoppers 3 Joeys, but we do not use PTAT or AutoHop and don't really plan to at least for now.

#80 OFFLINE   tsmacro

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:11 PM

DISH Applauds Decision Allowing Consumers to Continue to Enjoy Place-Shifting Technology





ENGLEWOOD, Colo.--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- The United States District Court, Central District of California, today denied a preliminary injunction motion filed by Fox Broadcasting Company seeking to block two place-shifting features found on DISH's Hopper® Whole-Home DVR platform: DISH AnywhereTM and Hopper TransfersTM.

The following statement can be attributed to DISH Executive Vice President and General Counsel, R. Stanton Dodge:

"Today's decision is the fourth in a string of victories for consumers related to our Hopper® Whole-Home DVR platform. DISH is pleased that the Court has sided again with consumer choice and control by rejecting Fox's efforts to deny our customers' access to the DISH Anywhere and Hopper Transfers features. We will continue to vigorously defend consumers' right to choice and control over their viewing experience."

DISH Anywhere, using Sling technology built into DISH's Hopper with Sling® Whole-Home DVR, provides a DISH customer, once they receive a television signal in their home, the capability to remotely view that signal from a single Internet-connected device (mobile phone, tablet or PC). Sling technology has been available since 2005 and this motion was the first of its kind in seven years.

With the Hopper Transfers feature, a DISH customer can move or duplicate certain Hopper DVR recordings made by the customer to an iPad; and unlike DISH Anywhere, no Internet connection is needed for viewing.

About DISH

DISH Network Corporation (NASDAQ: DISH), through its subsidiary DISH Network L.L.C., provides approximately 14.014 million satellite TV customers, as of June 30, 2013, with the highest quality programming and technology with the most choices at the best value, including HD Free for Life®. Subscribers enjoy the largest high definition line-up, the most international channels, and award-winning HD and DVR technology. DISH Network Corporation's subsidiary, Blockbuster L.L.C., delivers family entertainment to millions of customers around the world. DISH Network Corporation is a Fortune 200 company. Visit www.dish.com.


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