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Directv & Trees?


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46 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   ndole

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:05 PM

:lol:.
OK well this topic is about LOS, and whether its Directvs 3 or 5 LNB regaurdless the LNB or ARM in no way shape or form determin whether he has a clear LOS.

Thats determined before a Dish is even mounted let alone an LNB.


How does a smaller LOS window not affect whether or not someone has a LOS? Maybe in his case, since he's dealing with a canopy, it won't make a difference. But yes, a SL3 does reduce the required LOS window.
It's pretty simple stuff fella :lol:
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#27 OFFLINE   studechip

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:31 PM

The type of LNB being used changes what orbital slots you're trying to receive, and drastically changes the required window clearance for LOS. I never referenced anything to do with pointing coordinates.

Pretty much self explanatory.


Perhaps not, but it seemed to me that you did. When damondlt said "Just pointing out LNB's have nothing to do with LOS or determining LOS!", I interpreted that to mean looking down the arm of the dish doesn't point to a satellite. I think he will say that that is what he meant. Maybe that's where your confusion is coming from.

#28 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:53 PM

If you site down [up from the dish] the arm and you see a tree "odds are" you have a problem with LOS.
A.K.A VOS

#29 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:08 AM

If you site down [up from the dish] the arm and you see a tree "odds are" you have a problem with LOS.

Techs don't do this to determin LOS.

And your satement not really a true statement either. The Satellites are above the LNBs, they reflect off the top of the dish, down to the LNB's. You should know this. I'm sure you do.

I have a tree right now about 30" in the air in front of my dish.Its about 40 -50 feet away. but when I site up the LNB arm on my Slimline 5, the top of the tree is right in the way. OK well does that mean I have no LOS? Of course not, the satellite are about 10 or more feet above that tree and to the right of it.. In the future, something may have to be don't but who knows.

Point is you don't use LNB's to determin LOS!
I am not going to set up a dish in the woods , clear out everything in front of the LNB,s and realize that the issue was the tree that 10 feet away hanging over the dish, thats not in the path of the LNBs..;)
Besides, without an app or a compass that most people can't use the LNBs don't tell you where the satellites even are to begin with, LNB's don't point at them. Your talking about millions of miles, not inches of error.

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#30 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:09 AM

Perhaps not, but it seemed to me that you did. When damondlt said "Just pointing out LNB's have nothing to do with LOS or determining LOS!", I interpreted that to mean looking down the arm of the dish doesn't point to a satellite. I think he will say that that is what he meant. Maybe that's where your confusion is coming from.

That is what I meant , cause that what I said LOL!:lol:

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#31 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:48 AM

And your satement not really a true statement either. The Satellites are above the LNBs, they reflect off the top of the dish, down to the LNB's. You should know this. I'm sure you do.

Take a look at your dish. "I might be surprised".
The SATs do come from above the LNBs, but the support arm is also at a higher angle, and "looks fairly close" to the angle from the center of the dish to the SATs.
This is a crude/coarse/redneck method, but somewhat surprising how close it actually is.
A.K.A VOS

#32 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:58 AM

The type of LNB being used changes what orbital slots you're trying to receive, and drastically changes the required window clearance for LOS.

It is assumed that the OP is after some DIRECTV satellites and will be using either a Phase III or Slimline dish.

If the satellite constellation as a whole doesn't "shine" on the DISH, it doesn't matter what kind of LNB or support arm you use. This is a condition known as "no LOS" and it cannot be cured without moving something more than the LNB.
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#33 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:16 AM

This is a crude/coarse/redneck method, but somewhat surprising how close it actually is.

:lol:

I agree what your saying, my point was a Tech is not going to do that. Now if he is doing his own install, Granted Once I established where my LOS was "Not done with LNBS" I would then Aim my dish and Move the trees accordingly. But a homeowner isn't going to know where the Line of site is if he doesn't have an App, or some sort of compass. The LNBs aren't going to give you Direction.

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#34 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:25 AM

It is assumed that the OP is after some DIRECTV satellites and will be using either a Phase III or Slimline dish.

If the satellite constellation as a whole doesn't "shine" on the DISH, it doesn't matter what kind of LNB or support arm you use. This is a condition known as "no LOS" and it cannot be cured without moving something more than the LNB.


The point ndole is making is the amount of orbital arc or "window" seen is determined by the type of LNB used.

For instance for the Slimline-3 its only 99-103 or 4 degrees.

A Phase III is 18 degrees

For the SL-5 its 99-119 or 20 degrees.

Now DIRECTV recommends an additional 10 degrees clearance on each side and above or below the Clarke belt as a hedge against future plant growth over the years but thats it.

Therefore depending on the LNB type, whatever necessary satellite constellation a subscriber needs for their service package naturally must fit within those arcs given.

#35 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:38 AM

Take a look at your dish. "I might be surprised".
The SATs do come from above the LNBs, but the support arm is also at a higher angle, and "looks fairly close" to the angle from the center of the dish to the SATs.
This is a crude/coarse/redneck method, but somewhat surprising how close it actually is.


I always felt the seldom mentioned upward angle the LNB arm makes with the horizontal was congruent to the actual offset or "bounce" angle the incoming satellite signal makes with a perpendicular line to the dish face (though higher up of course), but was never completely sure. ;)

#36 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:57 AM

:lol:

I agree what your saying, my point was a Tech is not going to do that.

I guess you don't want to hear who told me to do this then. !rolling
A.K.A VOS

#37 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:19 AM

I guess you don't want to hear who told me to do this then. !rolling

Yes told you for you to try, but in the field a Tech is not going to go through the trouble to set up a dish and LNB, if he isn't already 100% sure he has a LOS!

That's common sense!.

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#38 OFFLINE   Michael H..

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:21 PM

Lot of dialogue in this thread about LOS definitions, not-detailed enough on-topic discussion for novices.

Assume if the sub is asking... then they are not familiar with basic tools (dishpointer) and terminology.
To give the poster a more practical set of instructions, which do not require any special tools (satfinder instruments or apps)...
You will (might) need a compass, a level, a laser pointer pen, cardboard, and tape.

First of all, DO Go to the dishpointer site and enter in your address.

I see that you're in MA, so generally speaking the RANGE of the direction of the sats 99° and 119°, are roughly the SE and NW corners, respectively of Georgia from MA projected onto a 2D map. (I know, not much fidelity, which is why you need to enter your address).
Depending upon whether your locals, or if you subscribe to Spanish-language channels, etc., you likely do not need to acquire the 110° and 119° sats, so you would have a 3LNB (99° 101° 103°) rather than 5LNB feed. If you do need a 5LNB, then also factor in the 110° and 119° sats.

From MA (atlantic coast) rather than (pacific coast), the sats arc downward (elevation) from left to right (99° to 119°) looking from the dish to the sky, where the opposite is true from the pacific coast.
In the dishpointer application, you will get an AZimuth, ELevation, SKew, and the obstruction trigonometric "legs", example: at a distance of 100', the obstruction "must be less than" 70', etc.

There is an option to select a 3 or 5 LNB multi-sat direction.
The results default to the nominal (101°) for alignment. (for the 3LNB this is sufficient).
For the 5LNB, get the numbers for EACH of the individual sats, so that you can locate each one.
By entering your exact address on the dishpointer site, you'll be able to take advantage of the LOS mapping, providing a visual line superimposed on your site imagery, where you can reference existing landmarks... example: from the SW corner eave of the house, the 99° sat is located in the direction 10' W of driveway/road intersection (much easier than using a compass).

You can then physically walk off the distance from the dish (100' from the example) and ensure that the tree top is less than 70'... or possibly in your case, that the canopy is higher than 70' AND that the tree trunk(s) are not in the LOS.

The materials I mentioned... tape the laser pointing pen to the cardboard with a reference line or edge of the bottom to align to the level based upon the ELevation.
You will then be able to walk your site, and check the LOS from any point.

The ROM numbers for MA are approximately:
SAT AZ(True) ELev OBst(@100')
99° 218° 34° 67'
101° 220° 33° 65'
103° 222° 32° 63'
119° 238° 22° 41' (notice the relatively large delta's)

The tolerances on the home-made sat finder, is such that for a 3LNB, it will suffice to locate the 101° sat, since the 99° and 103° sats are offset only 2° AZ and 1° EL.

Because the 110° and 119° are spaced relatively far apart from the 3LNB sats, you should verify these in addition to the 101° sat.

Note: Usually a workable location for a dish in your situation, is to pole-mount on the N side of (and away from) the house and aim over the house (and hopefully the trees).

EDIT:

Uh... Nevermind...
This post can be referenced to help explain what you're looking at, but skip the field instructions and download the app damondlt references in his post (3rd post after this one).
Damondlt: The "once per year" that I look at the sky never warranted me spending $20 for an app, but I immediately installed and tried out the free one you posted, Thanks...

Edited by Michael Hilley, 20 March 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#39 OFFLINE   F1aReD

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:16 PM

Thanks for all the reply's! I never meant actually "going through" the tree trunks themselves, but going in between 2 trees that may be spaced far enough apart, as Rich suggested..an "alley"

So are we looking at a row of trees running left to right in front of you? Are they multiple layers deep? Can you put a pole in the ground in between two of the trees and have a clear shot past that? If so, how far would that be from your house?


You hit it spot on, this is exactly what I meant. They are multiple layers deep, so I don't think a pole in between would work...It would only be maybe 20' away from the house, I'll have to take another walk around and see.

I'm going to try Michaels idea first, (since it's basically free) but just incase does anyone know of a good App for an iPad or an Android phone?

#40 OFFLINE   studechip

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:13 PM

The dishpointer app works nicely. It's $20 the last I knew.

#41 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:05 AM

The dishpointer app works nicely. It's $20 the last I knew.


This one works just as good and its free.
https://play.google....ZWRyZWFsaXR5Il0.

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#42 OFFLINE   F1aReD

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:19 AM

I got an App for my iPad. I pointed it up to the sky and it looks like the D* satellites are a lot higher up and to the right than where my current dish is pointed...what's up with that? The dish is still supposed to point towards the general area isn't it?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong...Assuming this App works OK, I can just search for the appropriate D* satellites, point it up towards the sky (at the new house), and if there's trees in the way then they will need to be removed or something else will need to be done?

#43 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:37 PM

I got an App for my iPad. I pointed it up to the sky and it looks like the D* satellites are a lot higher up and to the right than where my current dish is pointed...what's up with that? The dish is still supposed to point towards the general area isn't it?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong...Assuming this App works OK, I can just search for the appropriate D* satellites, point it up towards the sky (at the new house), and if there's trees in the way then they will need to be removed or something else will need to be done?


The App I posted shows you the Directv Satellites.

If you are using the Slimline 3 then its Spaceway 1 and 2, Directv 10,11 and 12, Directv 8 ,4s,and 9s.

That's the 99,101,103 orbital locations.

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#44 OFFLINE   Bill Broderick

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:25 PM

I got an App for my iPad. I pointed it up to the sky and it looks like the D* satellites are a lot higher up and to the right than where my current dish is pointed...what's up with that? The dish is still supposed to point towards the general area isn't it?


The satellite signals reflect off of your dish and onto the LNB's. So the dish isn't necessarily pointing at the satellites (think of a bank shot on a pool table).

#45 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 04:30 AM

In the case of the SL5 dishes, the dish aims at 101W but it picks up signals from all the way over at 119W.

Understand that the DIRECTV signals cannot penetrate much of anything. Anything of substance will effectively stop it.

The point is that when you use the app, you must see open sky where the satellites are. If you don't see open sky, you have to move around until you do. If there is nowhere you can go that gives you a clear view, you're absolutely out of luck unless you can make such a hole.

There was a time when you could get away with a smaller hole and multiple dishes, but that's no longer possible.
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#46 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:36 AM

I got an App for my iPad. I pointed it up to the sky and it looks like the D* satellites are a lot higher up and to the right than where my current dish is pointed...what's up with that? The dish is still supposed to point towards the general area isn't it?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong...Assuming this App works OK, I can just search for the appropriate D* satellites, point it up towards the sky (at the new house), and if there's trees in the way then they will need to be removed or something else will need to be done?


Have you given any thought to VOS's suggestion? Is it not possible? It really wouldn't cost that much to do. The amp only costs ~ $130 from Solid Signal.

As well as I know him and trust him, I'd have done it immediately.

Rich

#47 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 11:46 AM

Have you given any thought to VOS's suggestion? Is it not possible? It really wouldn't cost that much to do. The amp only costs ~ $130 from Solid Signal.

As well as I know him and trust him, I'd have done it immediately.

Rich

The primary issue is to determine if there is a location that has a clear LOS.
The various apps should help with this and posting a screen shot might help.
Once a location is found, then the next step might be to see what the costs would be to get the signals to the receivers.
A.K.A VOS




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