Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Directv & Trees?


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   damondlt

damondlt

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,411 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:22 PM

You may want to look back at my post to see that I bolded a portion of his quote ;)

And the second part of my quote explained the first part.;)

And LNB's don't determin LOS!

These do.
http://www.installer...CFVKf4Aod_ykA2Q

Edited by damondlt, 17 March 2013 - 05:30 PM.

 Former Directv Subscriber May 5th-2012 - November 7th 2014 

Blue Ridge Communticatons

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Livingroom Samsung 6030,55 inch

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Master Bedroom,Samsung 5300 40 inch

Tivo Mini Bedroom 2

Tivo Mini Bedroom 3

Cisco HD ,Bedroom office 4

Basic Plus anolog Bedrrom 5 and 6

 

 


...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#22 OFFLINE   ndole

ndole

    Problem Solver

  • Registered
  • 1,903 posts
Joined: Aug 26, 2009

Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:28 PM

You really should rethink that one :)
"He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else."

#23 OFFLINE   studechip

studechip

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 1,053 posts
Joined: Apr 16, 2012

Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:40 PM

You really should rethink that one :)


Instead of speaking vaguely, perhaps you could be more specific. What about the arm of a dish determines los? It only gives you azimuth, not elevation. That's not enough.

#24 OFFLINE   ndole

ndole

    Problem Solver

  • Registered
  • 1,903 posts
Joined: Aug 26, 2009

Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:51 PM

Instead of speaking vaguely, perhaps you could be more specific. What about the arm of a dish determines los? It only gives you azimuth, not elevation. That's not enough.


The type of LNB being used changes what orbital slots you're trying to receive, and drastically changes the required window clearance for LOS. I never referenced anything to do with pointing coordinates.

Pretty much self explanatory.
"He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else."

#25 OFFLINE   damondlt

damondlt

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,411 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Posted 17 March 2013 - 05:56 PM

The type of LNB being used changes what orbital slots you're trying to receive, and drastically changes the required window clearance for LOS. I never referenced anything to do with pointing coordinates.

.

:lol:.
OK well this topic is about LOS, and whether its Directvs 3 or 5 LNB regaurdless the LNB or ARM in no way shape or form determin whether he has a clear LOS.

Thats determined before a Dish is even mounted let alone an LNB.

 Former Directv Subscriber May 5th-2012 - November 7th 2014 

Blue Ridge Communticatons

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Livingroom Samsung 6030,55 inch

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Master Bedroom,Samsung 5300 40 inch

Tivo Mini Bedroom 2

Tivo Mini Bedroom 3

Cisco HD ,Bedroom office 4

Basic Plus anolog Bedrrom 5 and 6

 

 


#26 OFFLINE   ndole

ndole

    Problem Solver

  • Registered
  • 1,903 posts
Joined: Aug 26, 2009

Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:05 PM

:lol:.
OK well this topic is about LOS, and whether its Directvs 3 or 5 LNB regaurdless the LNB or ARM in no way shape or form determin whether he has a clear LOS.

Thats determined before a Dish is even mounted let alone an LNB.


How does a smaller LOS window not affect whether or not someone has a LOS? Maybe in his case, since he's dealing with a canopy, it won't make a difference. But yes, a SL3 does reduce the required LOS window.
It's pretty simple stuff fella :lol:
"He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else."

#27 OFFLINE   studechip

studechip

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 1,053 posts
Joined: Apr 16, 2012

Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:31 PM

The type of LNB being used changes what orbital slots you're trying to receive, and drastically changes the required window clearance for LOS. I never referenced anything to do with pointing coordinates.

Pretty much self explanatory.


Perhaps not, but it seemed to me that you did. When damondlt said "Just pointing out LNB's have nothing to do with LOS or determining LOS!", I interpreted that to mean looking down the arm of the dish doesn't point to a satellite. I think he will say that that is what he meant. Maybe that's where your confusion is coming from.

#28 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,953 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:53 PM

If you site down [up from the dish] the arm and you see a tree "odds are" you have a problem with LOS.
A.K.A VOS

#29 OFFLINE   damondlt

damondlt

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,411 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:08 AM

If you site down [up from the dish] the arm and you see a tree "odds are" you have a problem with LOS.

Techs don't do this to determin LOS.

And your satement not really a true statement either. The Satellites are above the LNBs, they reflect off the top of the dish, down to the LNB's. You should know this. I'm sure you do.

I have a tree right now about 30" in the air in front of my dish.Its about 40 -50 feet away. but when I site up the LNB arm on my Slimline 5, the top of the tree is right in the way. OK well does that mean I have no LOS? Of course not, the satellite are about 10 or more feet above that tree and to the right of it.. In the future, something may have to be don't but who knows.

Point is you don't use LNB's to determin LOS!
I am not going to set up a dish in the woods , clear out everything in front of the LNB,s and realize that the issue was the tree that 10 feet away hanging over the dish, thats not in the path of the LNBs..;)
Besides, without an app or a compass that most people can't use the LNBs don't tell you where the satellites even are to begin with, LNB's don't point at them. Your talking about millions of miles, not inches of error.

 Former Directv Subscriber May 5th-2012 - November 7th 2014 

Blue Ridge Communticatons

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Livingroom Samsung 6030,55 inch

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Master Bedroom,Samsung 5300 40 inch

Tivo Mini Bedroom 2

Tivo Mini Bedroom 3

Cisco HD ,Bedroom office 4

Basic Plus anolog Bedrrom 5 and 6

 

 


#30 OFFLINE   damondlt

damondlt

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,411 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Posted 18 March 2013 - 07:09 AM

Perhaps not, but it seemed to me that you did. When damondlt said "Just pointing out LNB's have nothing to do with LOS or determining LOS!", I interpreted that to mean looking down the arm of the dish doesn't point to a satellite. I think he will say that that is what he meant. Maybe that's where your confusion is coming from.

That is what I meant , cause that what I said LOL!:lol:

 Former Directv Subscriber May 5th-2012 - November 7th 2014 

Blue Ridge Communticatons

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Livingroom Samsung 6030,55 inch

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Master Bedroom,Samsung 5300 40 inch

Tivo Mini Bedroom 2

Tivo Mini Bedroom 3

Cisco HD ,Bedroom office 4

Basic Plus anolog Bedrrom 5 and 6

 

 


#31 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,953 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:48 AM

And your satement not really a true statement either. The Satellites are above the LNBs, they reflect off the top of the dish, down to the LNB's. You should know this. I'm sure you do.

Take a look at your dish. "I might be surprised".
The SATs do come from above the LNBs, but the support arm is also at a higher angle, and "looks fairly close" to the angle from the center of the dish to the SATs.
This is a crude/coarse/redneck method, but somewhat surprising how close it actually is.
A.K.A VOS

#32 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 19,215 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted 18 March 2013 - 09:58 AM

The type of LNB being used changes what orbital slots you're trying to receive, and drastically changes the required window clearance for LOS.

It is assumed that the OP is after some DIRECTV satellites and will be using either a Phase III or Slimline dish.

If the satellite constellation as a whole doesn't "shine" on the DISH, it doesn't matter what kind of LNB or support arm you use. This is a condition known as "no LOS" and it cannot be cured without moving something more than the LNB.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#33 OFFLINE   damondlt

damondlt

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,411 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:16 AM

This is a crude/coarse/redneck method, but somewhat surprising how close it actually is.

:lol:

I agree what your saying, my point was a Tech is not going to do that. Now if he is doing his own install, Granted Once I established where my LOS was "Not done with LNBS" I would then Aim my dish and Move the trees accordingly. But a homeowner isn't going to know where the Line of site is if he doesn't have an App, or some sort of compass. The LNBs aren't going to give you Direction.

 Former Directv Subscriber May 5th-2012 - November 7th 2014 

Blue Ridge Communticatons

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Livingroom Samsung 6030,55 inch

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Master Bedroom,Samsung 5300 40 inch

Tivo Mini Bedroom 2

Tivo Mini Bedroom 3

Cisco HD ,Bedroom office 4

Basic Plus anolog Bedrrom 5 and 6

 

 


#34 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,229 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:25 AM

It is assumed that the OP is after some DIRECTV satellites and will be using either a Phase III or Slimline dish.

If the satellite constellation as a whole doesn't "shine" on the DISH, it doesn't matter what kind of LNB or support arm you use. This is a condition known as "no LOS" and it cannot be cured without moving something more than the LNB.


The point ndole is making is the amount of orbital arc or "window" seen is determined by the type of LNB used.

For instance for the Slimline-3 its only 99-103 or 4 degrees.

A Phase III is 18 degrees

For the SL-5 its 99-119 or 20 degrees.

Now DIRECTV recommends an additional 10 degrees clearance on each side and above or below the Clarke belt as a hedge against future plant growth over the years but thats it.

Therefore depending on the LNB type, whatever necessary satellite constellation a subscriber needs for their service package naturally must fit within those arcs given.

#35 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,229 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:38 AM

Take a look at your dish. "I might be surprised".
The SATs do come from above the LNBs, but the support arm is also at a higher angle, and "looks fairly close" to the angle from the center of the dish to the SATs.
This is a crude/coarse/redneck method, but somewhat surprising how close it actually is.


I always felt the seldom mentioned upward angle the LNB arm makes with the horizontal was congruent to the actual offset or "bounce" angle the incoming satellite signal makes with a perpendicular line to the dish face (though higher up of course), but was never completely sure. ;)

#36 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

veryoldschool

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Moderators
  • 41,953 posts
Joined: Dec 09, 2006

Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:57 AM

:lol:

I agree what your saying, my point was a Tech is not going to do that.

I guess you don't want to hear who told me to do this then. !rolling
A.K.A VOS

#37 OFFLINE   damondlt

damondlt

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,411 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2006

Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:19 AM

I guess you don't want to hear who told me to do this then. !rolling

Yes told you for you to try, but in the field a Tech is not going to go through the trouble to set up a dish and LNB, if he isn't already 100% sure he has a LOS!

That's common sense!.

 Former Directv Subscriber May 5th-2012 - November 7th 2014 

Blue Ridge Communticatons

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Livingroom Samsung 6030,55 inch

Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Master Bedroom,Samsung 5300 40 inch

Tivo Mini Bedroom 2

Tivo Mini Bedroom 3

Cisco HD ,Bedroom office 4

Basic Plus anolog Bedrrom 5 and 6

 

 


#38 OFFLINE   Michael Hilley

Michael Hilley

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 188 posts
Joined: May 31, 2007

Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:21 PM

Lot of dialogue in this thread about LOS definitions, not-detailed enough on-topic discussion for novices.

Assume if the sub is asking... then they are not familiar with basic tools (dishpointer) and terminology.
To give the poster a more practical set of instructions, which do not require any special tools (satfinder instruments or apps)...
You will (might) need a compass, a level, a laser pointer pen, cardboard, and tape.

First of all, DO Go to the dishpointer site and enter in your address.

I see that you're in MA, so generally speaking the RANGE of the direction of the sats 99° and 119°, are roughly the SE and NW corners, respectively of Georgia from MA projected onto a 2D map. (I know, not much fidelity, which is why you need to enter your address).
Depending upon whether your locals, or if you subscribe to Spanish-language channels, etc., you likely do not need to acquire the 110° and 119° sats, so you would have a 3LNB (99° 101° 103°) rather than 5LNB feed. If you do need a 5LNB, then also factor in the 110° and 119° sats.

From MA (atlantic coast) rather than (pacific coast), the sats arc downward (elevation) from left to right (99° to 119°) looking from the dish to the sky, where the opposite is true from the pacific coast.
In the dishpointer application, you will get an AZimuth, ELevation, SKew, and the obstruction trigonometric "legs", example: at a distance of 100', the obstruction "must be less than" 70', etc.

There is an option to select a 3 or 5 LNB multi-sat direction.
The results default to the nominal (101°) for alignment. (for the 3LNB this is sufficient).
For the 5LNB, get the numbers for EACH of the individual sats, so that you can locate each one.
By entering your exact address on the dishpointer site, you'll be able to take advantage of the LOS mapping, providing a visual line superimposed on your site imagery, where you can reference existing landmarks... example: from the SW corner eave of the house, the 99° sat is located in the direction 10' W of driveway/road intersection (much easier than using a compass).

You can then physically walk off the distance from the dish (100' from the example) and ensure that the tree top is less than 70'... or possibly in your case, that the canopy is higher than 70' AND that the tree trunk(s) are not in the LOS.

The materials I mentioned... tape the laser pointing pen to the cardboard with a reference line or edge of the bottom to align to the level based upon the ELevation.
You will then be able to walk your site, and check the LOS from any point.

The ROM numbers for MA are approximately:
SAT AZ(True) ELev OBst(@100')
99° 218° 34° 67'
101° 220° 33° 65'
103° 222° 32° 63'
119° 238° 22° 41' (notice the relatively large delta's)

The tolerances on the home-made sat finder, is such that for a 3LNB, it will suffice to locate the 101° sat, since the 99° and 103° sats are offset only 2° AZ and 1° EL.

Because the 110° and 119° are spaced relatively far apart from the 3LNB sats, you should verify these in addition to the 101° sat.

Note: Usually a workable location for a dish in your situation, is to pole-mount on the N side of (and away from) the house and aim over the house (and hopefully the trees).

EDIT:

Uh... Nevermind...
This post can be referenced to help explain what you're looking at, but skip the field instructions and download the app damondlt references in his post (3rd post after this one).
Damondlt: The "once per year" that I look at the sky never warranted me spending $20 for an app, but I immediately installed and tried out the free one you posted, Thanks...

Edited by Michael Hilley, 20 March 2013 - 07:38 AM.


#39 OFFLINE   F1aReD

F1aReD

    AllStar

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 97 posts
Joined: Sep 27, 2011

Posted 19 March 2013 - 06:16 PM

Thanks for all the reply's! I never meant actually "going through" the tree trunks themselves, but going in between 2 trees that may be spaced far enough apart, as Rich suggested..an "alley"

So are we looking at a row of trees running left to right in front of you? Are they multiple layers deep? Can you put a pole in the ground in between two of the trees and have a clear shot past that? If so, how far would that be from your house?


You hit it spot on, this is exactly what I meant. They are multiple layers deep, so I don't think a pole in between would work...It would only be maybe 20' away from the house, I'll have to take another walk around and see.

I'm going to try Michaels idea first, (since it's basically free) but just incase does anyone know of a good App for an iPad or an Android phone?

#40 OFFLINE   studechip

studechip

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 1,053 posts
Joined: Apr 16, 2012

Posted 19 March 2013 - 07:13 PM

The dishpointer app works nicely. It's $20 the last I knew.




Protected By... spam firewall...And...