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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Will the new HR44 help my existing Problem?


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18 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   wewz40

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:48 PM

Bought a new Samsung 60" plasma 600hrtz. TV. Had nothing but problems with motion blurr. Had two different techs out only to tell me it is not the tv but the source. Said it was like putting cheap gas in a high performance car. Tried high speed HDMI cable, and still have the problem. My question is, Is there a adjustment on the new HR44 DVR from direct TV that can solve my problem?

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#2 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:51 PM

Bought a new Samsung 60" plasma 600hrtz. TV. Had nothing but problems with motion blurr. Had two different techs out only to tell me it is not the tv but the source. Said it was like putting cheap gas in a high performance car. Tried high speed HDMI cable, and still have the problem. My question is, Is there a adjustment on the new HR44 DVR from direct TV that can solve my problem?


Beside changing the output resolutions from the HR44 there is nothing else that would change picture quality.

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#3 OFFLINE   dettxw

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:58 PM

So which receiver do you have right now, not sure from you post if you have or want to get an HR44.
What resolution is your receiver set to, and what resolution does the TV report?
Need more info!

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#4 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:06 PM

Sounds like the old 'not sure what's wrong but I've got to get out of here' tech problem!

Knowing your current receiver would help but my bet is on the TV...

Can you turn off the 600Hz 'feature'? What about using a blu-ray or DVD player or even OTA? Troubles there also?

#5 OFFLINE   Datagg

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:07 PM

No it will probably just add more.... Tech reply if that is indeed a brand new TV is ludicrous. Check your tv settings for options on motion blur, smooth effects or something along that nature. Most sets have settings to help control fast moving scenes etc... id check there... But unless there is something wrong with your current box, dont think for a second going up to the 44 will bring any fixes to the table. Also if your running all thru your AVR make sure its not encoding the signal. Leave that to the TV or the DVR.

Edited by Datagg, 04 April 2013 - 04:23 PM.


#6 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:46 PM

No it will probably just add more.... Tech reply if that is indeed a brand new TV is ludicrous. Check your tv settings for options on motion blur, smooth effects or something along that nature. Most sets have settings to help control fast moving scenes etc... id check there... But unless there is something wrong with your current box, dont think for a second going up to the 44 will bring any fixes to the table. Also if your running all thru your AVR make sure its not encoding the signal. Leave that to the TV or the DVR.


I assume you mean don't turn off the 600Hz? I only suggest that to see it is what's screwed up on the TV....

#7 OFFLINE   Datagg

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

I assume you mean don't turn off the 600Hz? I only suggest that to see it is what's screwed up on the TV....


No not at all Mike.... My comment was to simply state i do not think its the box and getting a 44 being new will only add new issues of nature. With that being said he may have settings off in the new TV..Perhaps he is encoding the signal through a AVR which means its being dumped wrong as the DVR would handle that... Lots of reasons, yet I dont think its the DVR unless this ghosting is perhaps a bad hardrive while watching recordings.

#8 OFFLINE   Mike Greer

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

No not at all Mike.... My comment was to simply state i do not think its the box and getting a 44 being new will only add new issues. With that being said he may have settings off in the new TV..Perhaps he is encoding the signal through a AVR which means its being dumped wrong as the DVR would handle that... Lots of reasons, yet I dont think its the DVR unless this ghosting is perhaps a bad hardrive while watching recordings.


Gotcha...

#9 OFFLINE   Volatility

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:03 PM

You made a really good investment with that Samsung those are some really good tv's. Have one myself. Like stated earlier, you may want to cycle through the resolutions to see if that may resolve it.

#10 OFFLINE   dettxw

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

...

Can you turn off the 600Hz 'feature'? ...

IIRC the marketing people like to quote the 600Hz subfield drive in a plasma to combat the LCD 120Hz/240Hz business.
It is really just an inherent plasma function and can't be/doesn't need to be changed. Plasma TVs do not have any motion compensation as they don't need it like LCDs do, they have pixels that can quickly change state.

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#11 OFFLINE   thedamaja

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:35 AM

Plasma TVs do not have any motion compensation as they don't need it like LCDs do, they have pixels that can quickly change state.


While I agree that plasmas don't need motion compensation they most certainly do include the feature and its most often on by default. It was the first thing I turned off on my Panasonic.

#12 OFFLINE   dettxw

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:50 AM

While I agree that plasmas don't need motion compensation they most certainly do include the feature and its most often on by default. It was the first thing I turned off on my Panasonic.

Should have bought a Samsung like the OP. ;)

The manual for my Samsung plasma mentions motion compensation in one spot (the following line on page 42) but it's for LEDs-only:

LED Motion Plus (Off / On) for LED 5550 Series : Removes blur and judder from scenes with a lot of fast movement to provide a clearer picture.

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#13 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:12 AM

OP- Been able to try any suggestions?
Can you state your DVR model and AVR (if any, and how it's set up.)
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#14 OFFLINE   hancox

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 09:38 AM

I would be interested in what a component cable looks like, in comparison to the HDMI. Given that there is at least one issue that some people have had with the HR24-500's (colorspace), I would think it's worth taking HDMI out of the line of fire. Would also eliminate/point at an AVR, if in play, too.

#15 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 06:01 PM

Bought a new Samsung 60" plasma 600hrtz. TV. Had nothing but problems with motion blurr. Had two different techs out only to tell me it is not the tv but the source. Said it was like putting cheap gas in a high performance car. Tried high speed HDMI cable, and still have the problem. My question is, Is there a adjustment on the new HR44 DVR from direct TV that can solve my problem?


Unlikely. An HD source (for 4:2:0 consumer HD) merely delivers the information needed to construct each frame, and does that by sending a stream of binary numbers that represent the luminance amplitude for each pixel, followed by the luminance amplitude of each group of 4 pixels for R-Y and then for B-Y (which together create the chroma info), along with metadata instructing the display how to place all of those pixels exactly where they should be for a particular resolution format. A cable merely carries that information.

It then becomes the display's task to display them in a way that seems proper to the viewer, which is exactly what your TV is not doing, at least in your particular case.

And your technicians could not be further off the mark. It is human nature to try to make order out of chaos, and a technician is under pressure to give an answer that seems credible. But it you understand how this all works, it is not credible. They made up a reality that does not exist so that they will have an answer to give you that you might accept. Problem is, the answer is completely wrong, and they get away with that because they don't know the correct answer and odds are those they tell it to won't realize how full of it they are. They have bought into it themselves, as a way of validating their own (incorrect) understanding, so that they don't feel like liars, although that is exactly what they are.

But it can help if you understand what is at the root of "motion blur", so if you are on board with that, maybe this can help clear away some of the confusion. Most "motion blur" complaints are on LCD, and virtually all of them are idiosyncratic, meaning you may be sensitive to it while another person may not. It is really a perception issue, but is triggered by technical issues, just not universally.

Ironically, no LCD for the last decade or two actually suffers from motion blur as a function of it not being able to refresh the pixels fast enough. Modern LCD pixels refresh at a rate of 1-4ms, which means if you refresh the screen at 60 Hz (normal in a 1080p60 TV) it takes ~17 ms to redraw the screen. An LCD pixel can refresh 4 times in that space of time, and fast enough to accomodate 480 Hz screen rates, so there is no actual blur created.

But it can appear as if it were blur, because of the duty cycle. LCDs are a "sample and hold" technology, meaning that once the pixel is illuminated it stays in that state until the next frame comes along. Every pixel on the screen is lit fully all the time. This can appear as motion blur to a subset of viewers, which is a function of persistence of vision. IOW, any "blur" is really in the human vision system. We don't experience it in real life, but when video comes along as a series of still images in order to simulate motion, that triggers this perception in certain individuals, which they interpret as motion blur.

Typically, CRTs and plasmas don't have this issue, because in both technologies a pixel has a duty cycle where at first the pixel is illuminated, and then it slowly dims down until the next frame, which reilluminates it fully. To that above subset of viewers, this looks more natural.

LCDs try to compensate by either strobing the backlight or scanning the backlight to simulate an on-off duty cycle, and that is what you referred to as "LED Motion Plus", which is the Samsung variant of that, and it is there strictly to appease folks who interpret the full-on normal duty cycle as blur. And of course it does not apply to a plasma set, nor should it need to.

Plasmas then really should not suffer from motion blur. But if you are using the "600 Hz" function, that may reintroduce what appears to some folks as blur, because it is probably scanning the frame in 10 times as often (as 60 Hz) and so the plasma pixel in that mode never gets a chance to dim down much at all, and it then appears as a virtual full-on pixel all the time, just like a normal LCD would.

I think they offer the "600 Hz" feature for those who like the frame interpolation feature of LCDs. That feature on LCDs has the ability to remove flicker and judder from pans and zooms, making the picture appear more coherent during motion and less like a series of still pictures (which is of course what it really is).

But many people are sensitive to that, as well, and don't like the way that looks. Others love it. So it is a feature that some will turn on, and others will turn off, and I think the same is true of high scan rates on plasmas, which other folks, you probably included, are also sensitive to.

If I haven't missed my guess, I would say that this is likely where your particular problem lies. Disable that feature and please report back. What is interesting is that you did not have the problem before you got this TV. If your previous TV was a CRT or a garden-variety plasma, or even an LCD with backlight strobing/scanning, this would explain why it never bothered you before.

Edited by TomCat, 06 April 2013 - 06:30 PM.

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#16 OFFLINE   Datagg

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 06:52 PM

and a technician is under pressure to give an answer that seems credible. But it you understand how this all works, it is not credible. They made up a reality that does not exist so that they will have an answer to give you that you might accept.


and Bam there it is across DTV land.... sure there are some that care yet I haven't found many of them in my years.

On that note, bypass your AVR (if passing thru) and go straight to TV and see what that does. I just today with my neighbor who just bought a Vizeo LCD had ghosting... ended up being his AVR altering the signal out... turned that off and let the TV do the work.... The box he has is Cox and it did a horrible job at sending out a signal, so i set the TV to do all the work. DTV box should handle the conversions on its own.

#17 ONLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:04 PM

and Bam there it is across DTV land.... sure there are some that care yet I haven't found many of them in my years.

...


I think the techs were TV techs, not DirecTV techs.
If you stop responding to them or put them on ignore, then eventually they'll go away.

#18 OFFLINE   Datagg

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:02 PM

I think the techs were TV techs, not DirecTV techs.


ahh ok. They are all guilty of the artform "passing the buck" :lol: It's the sad truth, but when you get that rare diamond in the rough it's so nice

#19 OFFLINE   n3vino

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:13 AM

ahh ok. They are all guilty of the artform "passing the buck" :lol: It's the sad truth, but when you get that rare diamond in the rough it's so nice

Techs can't go back to their boss or the warranty company and say, "We don't know what it is and we can't fix it", because that would mean a replacement TV. The warranty companies wouldn't hire them anymore. So they blame something else.

Back in the days of the Sony CRT flicker problem, I had problems for a year with my set. I realized then that these techs aren't really trained on all the different models. One tech replaced a crt and left a geometry problem on the right side. He came back and didn't know how to move the grid, as I later learned to do. Instead he stretched the heck out of the grid and left a big overscan problem.

Another tech later came and said it was within specs. I think he didn't want to fool with the convergance issue, which I later learned how to do. The flicker came back later. The tech said that the crt's had to be replaced. BINGO. That would be the third time parts had to be replaced and that qualified me for a new set.

Let me explain. When the problem first started, the tech replaced some parts that did not help the situation, and had nothing to do with the flicker. The problem was really with the CRT's that Sony was using. But these techs sometimes just guess. It's really a hassle since it takes a week for them to come out, and then a week or two to get the parts. And then you find that didn't fix the problem. It really is frustrating. I dealt with the problem and techs for a year.

At that point I had the extended warranty people where they needed to be. I got a new set, which is the CRT I've had for ten years and have never had a problem with. Sony corrected the CRT problem in 2003 by switching to Panasonic CRT's. Sony really took a big hit with those defective crt's.

If the OP just got the set and is within 30 days, he needs to send that one back and get a new set. Assuming that the advise given here does not work.

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