Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

No ground required.


  • Please log in to reply
94 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,106 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:53 PM

We are talking about grounding the dish, not the receiver/dvr. Two different things completely.


Actually it is all the same thing.

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#27 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,928 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:59 PM

Posted DIRECTV's official position on grounding at the time with the reasons and illustrations from their training documents about two years ago here for those interested;

http://www.dbstalk.c...431#post2804431

#28 OFFLINE   west99999

west99999

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,085 posts
Joined: May 11, 2007

Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:17 PM

Short of needing an ohmeter, visually follow the cable(s) coming from the dish. They (or "it" id only one) should connect first in line to a ground block like so;

Posted Image

Or maybe;

Posted Image

Which has a (usually) green colored wire connected from it to any convenient screw on your electrical service panel casing.


Just for informational purposes, the DirecTV system can also be grounded through any UL listed SWM splitter/ SWM switch, and also legacy multi-switch's that are UL listed for grounding purposes.

#29 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,928 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 13 April 2013 - 04:30 PM

Just for informational purposes, the DirecTV system can also be grounded through any UL listed SWM splitter/ SWM switch, and also legacy multi-switch's that are UL listed for grounding purposes.


That will still pass a QC today?

When I was given a SWiM upgrade for WH service over two years ago the installers did not use an intermediate 4 barrel ground block for the lines feeding the SWiM-16 as I expected them to, but ran the cables straight to the -16 and merely connected a green ground wire from the -16 grounding screw to the nearby cold water feed line to the hot water heater and said that would be sufficient.

However other installers here have since posted that was not permitted any longer.

#30 OFFLINE   dondude32

dondude32

    Legend

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 216 posts
Joined: Apr 03, 2003

Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:10 PM

I checked the swim and no ground connected to grounding terminal. Also noticed one output is open with no cap. Should it have a terminal cap?

Attached Thumbnails

  • 100_3528.JPG


#31 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

AntAltMike

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,318 posts
  • LocationCollege Park MD (just outside Wash, DC)
Joined: Nov 20, 2004

Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

just as an aside, back in the bad old days when anyone could install, I've lost count of how many systems I've seen grounded to propane tanks


Many years ago, the NEC permitted antenna system grounding to the gas line.

#32 OFFLINE   longrider

longrider

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 3,591 posts
  • LocationElizabeth, CO
Joined: Apr 21, 2007

Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:17 PM

The lack of a ground there is no big deal as long as it is grounded at the dish. The open output should have a terminator on it.
My Setup

#33 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 23,310 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:24 PM

That will still pass a QC today?

When I was given a SWiM upgrade for WH service over two years ago the installers did not use an intermediate 4 barrel ground block for the lines feeding the SWiM-16 as I expected them to, but ran the cables straight to the -16 and merely connected a green ground wire from the -16 grounding screw to the nearby cold water feed line to the hot water heater and said that would be sufficient.

However other installers here have since posted that was not permitted any longer.


Been against the NEC rules for years, I think. Too much plastic pipe in houses now.

Rich

#34 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 23,310 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:27 PM

I checked the swim and no ground connected to grounding terminal. Also noticed one output is open with no cap. Should it have a terminal cap?


Yes. You need a termination cap, looks like a regular cap but has a 75 ohm resister in it. I think Radio Shack has them.

Rich

#35 OFFLINE   dondude32

dondude32

    Legend

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 216 posts
Joined: Apr 03, 2003

Posted 13 April 2013 - 05:40 PM

No ground on system at all. I'll call back and try again. Have 3 kids, all have directv receivers in their rooms. I wish they had cleaned up old wires when they upgraded the dish.

#36 OFFLINE   west99999

west99999

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,085 posts
Joined: May 11, 2007

Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:55 AM


That will still pass a QC today?

When I was given a SWiM upgrade for WH service over two years ago the installers did not use an intermediate 4 barrel ground block for the lines feeding the SWiM-16 as I expected them to, but ran the cables straight to the -16 and merely connected a green ground wire from the -16 grounding screw to the nearby cold water feed line to the hot water heater and said that would be sufficient.

However other installers here have since posted that was not permitted any longer.

Absolutely it will pass a QC. Only time a ground block would be required first is if local electric code requires it and I don't know of any that do.



#37 OFFLINE   Rich

Rich

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 23,310 posts
  • LocationPiscataway, NJ
Joined: Feb 22, 2007

Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:31 AM

Absolutely it will pass a QC. Only time a ground block would be required first is if local electric code requires it and I don't know of any that do.

Exactly what I have been told by our town's electrical inspector.  He actually told me a ground wasn't necessary.

 

Rich



#38 OFFLINE   west99999

west99999

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,085 posts
Joined: May 11, 2007

Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

Exactly what I have been told by our town's electrical inspector.  He actually told me a ground wasn't necessary.

 

Rich

Per DirecTV the NEC is required at a minimum but local codes can be more stringent. All local municipalities are required to follow the NEC as well so your inspector is wrong.  They can add stuff to the NEC but cannot take away.



#39 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,440 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:18 PM

Absolutely it will pass a QC. Only time a ground block would be required first is if local electric code requires it and I don't know of any that do.

 

I've been led to understand that the dish itself should be grounded in addition to grounding the coax. Grounding a SWM-16 would take care of grounding the coax, but it wouldn't ground the dish. I'm not sure what difference that makes, unless there are overhead power lines that could possibly fall onto the dish during a storm or due to an uprooted tree pulling power lines onto the dish from the street or alley. Is there any other reason why one should ground a dish or an antenna mast in addition to the coax connected to it?

 

I would suggest that unless HoTat2 knows for certain his cold water pipe is copper all the way through (and not PEX in places as is common in newer homes) he might want to find something else to ground it to. Would running a ground wire to the center screw on a properly installed outlet be acceptable? It would be grounded exactly as if the SWM-16 was grounded via a three prong plug. I know some people do this for grounding audio accessories that use a two prong wall wart.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL, 3xSWM16; 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#40 OFFLINE   n3ntj

n3ntj

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,744 posts
  • LocationLancaster, PA area
Joined: Dec 18, 2006

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:20 PM

Just moved recently and had service installed at new home. Installer didn't ground dish? Called Directv (have the service plan wanted me to upgrade to premium service plan) and they said sometimes ground is not always necessary. Live in Southwest Florida guess they are ok with system getting zapped.:nono2:

NEC requires grounding of satellite TV installs (ref. NEC part 820).  If not done by the installer, the installation violates the code and needs to be corrected ASAP.  Call D* back and demand the system is properly installed to meet your local codes.


HD Snob - "Friends Don't Let Friends Watch Cable".
Electrical/RF Engineer & Inspector
DirecTV Equipment: HR24-200 (2), 5LNB Slimline, AM21, SWiM 8 installed (MRV), Cinema Kit (Wifi connection)
Configuration: Native OFF. Units OFF when not in use.
TVs: 2 Panasonic Plasma TV's each using HDMI (one 1080p/one 720p)
DirecTV customer since 1998. Plus HD DVR package w/ NHL Center Ice & MLB Extra Innings.
OTA Antenna: Homebrew UHF & VHF antennas w/ 30dB amplifier fed w/ RG-6 Quad-shield coax.


#41 OFFLINE   netraa

netraa

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 483 posts
Joined: Mar 27, 2007

Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:29 PM

In the current/upcoming NEC code the requirement to back bond an antenna has been removed.  This leaves only the requirement to ground the primary drop/coax run.



#42 OFFLINE   west99999

west99999

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,085 posts
Joined: May 11, 2007

Posted 14 April 2013 - 03:41 PM

In the current/upcoming NEC code the requirement to back bond an antenna has been removed.  This leaves only the requirement to ground the primary drop/coax run.

Doubt it, you got a link or something to correlate that.



#43 OFFLINE   studechip

studechip

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 1,196 posts
Joined: Apr 16, 2012

Posted 14 April 2013 - 04:52 PM


Actually it is all the same thing.

Sort of. You can ground the dish and that does the receiver, too. Grounding the receiver wouldn't ground the dish.



#44 OFFLINE   AntAltMike

AntAltMike

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,318 posts
  • LocationCollege Park MD (just outside Wash, DC)
Joined: Nov 20, 2004

Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:14 PM

The NEC is a model code that states rely on when legislating their statutory code. The state can eliminate any part of the code, but at least here on the east coast, where I have read the statutes enacting the code for four different states, I have not seen any language that explicitly added to or subtracted from sections 810 and 820.

I have read every published NEC from 1996 through 2008, which is 5 versions, since it is updated every three years, but I have gotten all ground-threaded-out over the years and so my recollections are not as reliable as they once were, but I will attempt to contribute what I can here.

- As I recall, the restriction that cold water pipe can only be used if the connection point is within 5 feet of where it enters the building came in the 2002 revision. Even then, it says said that in a commercial building, you can use the cold water pipe anywhere provided the plumbing is professionally maintained and substantially visible from the point where the pipe enters the building to the point where the connection is made (I struck the word "says" in this sentence because when I just read a later revision of this section, it did not include the exception for commercial buildings).

DirecTV publishes a list of acceptable grounds, and last time I saw it, they explicitly allowed connection to water sprinkler system pipe.

- The NEC as of 2008 still said that the mast had to be grounded and that the coax outer conductor had to be grounded as near as possible to the point where it enters the building. Starting in either 2002 or 2005, they stipulated that the mast ground connection point had to be within 20 feet of the mast - which is often impossible - unless it was not practical to do so. I believe the rationalization that grounding an exterior SWM unit meets the code's coax grounding requirement is that the installler is generously assuming that that grounding connection point satisfies the definition of being as close to the point where the coax enters the building. Post #41 says that "backbonding" of the mast is not required under the "current/upcoming code", which seems to allude to either the 2011 or 2014 revisions. I have not seen either but I would not be "shocked" (heh, heh) if they did away with that requirement.

- Starting in I think 2005, the requirement that the outer conductor had to be grounded was complicated by the additional requirement that there had to be a static discharge device used for that purpose. Unfortunately, they did not define static discharge device. Back when we used twin lead, you couldn't ground one leg or the other because doing so would cut your signal power in half, so back then they developed a do-hickey that drained off the static discharge somewhat without actually contacting the conductors. It was round, and it often went on the bottom of the mast. I bought a dozen static discharge devices designed for use with 75 ohm cable back in the mid 1990s but never used them. They basically look like bloated groundblocks that have some gas filled chamber that lets the ground be close enough to the center conductor that even a low potential static charge will jump across it. As I recall, in the next successive revision of the code, they explicitly said that the industry standard coax ground block meets that section's requirement.

- People living on the west coast, where there is less lightning, have told me that some of their local codes do not require the mast to be grounded but still required the outer coax conductor to be grounded.

- People living in Arizona or Colorado have told me that due to the poor conductivity of the soil, they had more stringent requirements for the sufficiency of the grounding rod, but they may have been confusing that with the sufficiency requirements for a ground rod that is used as a supplemental ground for the formation of the ground electrode, rather than for a supplemnentary ground rod used to assure a straightter, shorter ground path for one device,

At one time the reception antenna mast requirement was in one section whereas the only coax ground requirement was inferred from the section intended for cable TV. I think that the 2008 revision now has both the reception antenna system mast and coax grounding requirements in the same section.

At one time, an antenna rotor wire had to be grounded, and it had to be flat, and it had to have one more conductor than the rotor needed and the two outer conductors had to be grounded. Honest.

Back in the day of 300 ohm twin lead, the downlead had to be supported by 3" standoffs, but that requirement is long gone.

By the way, if you are wondering why we don't just post the model code here, the answer is, we can't. It is copyrighted. Someone owns the law that we have to follow but we can't know what that law is unless we buy a copy of it from a private seller.

When I first moved to the Washington, DC market and began servicing TV antennas on highrise buildings, I'm sure that less than 10% were grounded to code. It is my best belief and knowledge that no one has ever forfeited his insurance coverage because of a failure to ground. DirecTV and DISH insist on grounding probably because they don't want the bad publicity that would come to them if it was reported as a news story that they didn't ground, and they might not want the customer to be able to use their failure to ground for negotiating leverage, either by blaming them for some damages or for wriggling out of a contract. Installers are motivated to ground because they don't want to be penalized by their employer for not grounding. They were paid to ground, so their employers are entitled to get out of the installer what they paid him for.

Edited by AntAltMike, 17 April 2013 - 07:34 AM.

  • west99999 likes this

#45 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,106 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:04 PM

Sort of. You can ground the dish and that does the receiver, too. Grounding the receiver wouldn't ground the dish.


Actually, if you ground any part of the coaxial network, you ground all of it. Whether that will be safe, or according code, is another issue.

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#46 OFFLINE   bobcamp1

bobcamp1

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 896 posts
Joined: Nov 08, 2007

Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:14 AM

Posted DIRECTV's official position on grounding at the time with the reasons and illustrations from their training documents about two years ago here for those interested;

http://www.dbstalk.c...431#post2804431

 

And most of those reasons are wrong.

 

You ground solely to prevent a static discharge on the dish.  Which is insanely rare.  But if you're on a ladder or a roof and you get an unexpected zap, you might fall off.  And all it takes is one senseless death.

 

The DC voltages involved with satellite are simply not dangerous and wouldn't cause a shock.  And I don't think there's a failure mechanism that exists that can get line or neutral voltage on the dish.  Grounding it INCREASES the chance of lightning damage, because you've increased the odds of a strike.

 

Having said all of that, if your code requires it, you have to get it done.  Because if some unrelated electrical disaster happens and your insurance company discovers a missing ground on your dish, they might use it to weasel out of covering the damage.



#47 OFFLINE   upsss

upsss

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 23 posts
Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:23 AM


Then why are the plugs on all the HRs two pronged? Do you have a seperate ground for your refrigerator? I don't like grounding discussions. Too many people have too many opinions.

Rich

 

Because the receiver has two prongs that is precisely why the Dish must be grounded!  Any appliance that is not "double insulated" has to be grounded.  Your refrigerator is not double insulated, it has 3 prong cord.  Your electric drill is double insulated, it has only 2 prongs. This has nothing to do with opinions!

 

"Too many opinions" because of too many clueless, none professional people.  Professional = Electrical Engineer.


Edited by upsss, 15 April 2013 - 01:53 PM.


#48 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,106 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 15 April 2013 - 12:45 PM

Because the receiver has two prongs that is precisely why the Dish must be grounded! Any appliance that is not "double insulated" has to be grounded. Your refrigerator is not double insulated, it has 3 prong cord. Your electric drill is double insulated, it has only 2 prongs...


Precisely!!!

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#49 OFFLINE   trh

trh

    This Space for Sale

  • Registered
  • 3,656 posts
  • LocationNE FL
Joined: Nov 02, 2007

Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:57 PM

There is a map at this site http://www.nema.org/...rical-Code.aspx showing NEC adoption by state and then a PDF file that details each state and any modification they may have made to the NEC.

 

nec-map.gif



#50 OFFLINE   netraa

netraa

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 483 posts
Joined: Mar 27, 2007

Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:26 PM

http://www.nfpa.org/...13-ROPDraft.pdf

 

it's just a draft, but there is nothing in 810.21 that says the antenna still has to be backbonded, just that it must meet a common ground.

and 820 just deals with grounding the coax network.

 

unless i'm missing something, it appears that they have decided grounding the coax is all that is needed since the coax is the only thing that connects the dish on the roof which by itself is insulated from the house wiring to the wiring in the house.






Protected By... spam firewall...And...