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Thank Grimm its...Tuesday


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31 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:42 PM

They did air it.



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#22 OFFLINE   yosoyellobo

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:37 PM

They did air it.


The episode record yesterday was Vocanalis.

#23 OFFLINE   yosoyellobo

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 11:27 PM

I see what happen. They changes the name of the episode from Ring Of Fire to Volcanalis. Good episode by the way.

#24 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

I think they actually did. The title was "Volcanalis", but Wu made a reference to "ring of fire" partway into the show. I'm guessing they changed the name; if ever you were going to use that name as a name for an ep of Grimm, this would be the one.

 

Sort of a clinker ep, actually. But even the worst Grimm ep trumps a lot of the best eps of other shows. But if they keep doing that, it won't last as long as we want it to.


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#25 OFFLINE   yosoyellobo

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 08:16 PM

I believe they change the title from Ring Of Fire to Vulcanalis so it would not show up as a repeat as it was showed the week before as Ring Of Fire and was pre-empted.

#26 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:01 PM

Mmmmmm. Nuh uh. A show has to air to gain repeat status, and it has to be on your HDD or have been in the last 28 days to prevent being recorded by an SL. Even if not, it would be a simple matter for them to manipulate the metadata flag that indicates it was a first run.

 

In my experience, 2 or 3 eps every year that I record are scheduled with one name and then "disappear" to never really air, or more likely air later with a different name. I've seen it with CSI, 2 1/2 Men, Parks and Rec, How I Met Your Mother, and others I can't recall.

 

A lot of show runners are perfectionists, and they will tinker with whatever they can right up to and after delivery. If I'm Chuck Lorre and I think of a funnier ep title (or vanity card) after delivery yet prior to air, I will change it.


Edited by TomCat, 30 April 2013 - 08:04 PM.

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#27 OFFLINE   longrider

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:20 AM

And their house is based on a real one:

 

http://www.mysouthwa...about-nick.html

Thanks for the link, that is an interesting story.  It sounds like it is working out better for the homeowners  than it did 30 years ago here in Colorado for the Mork & Mindy house in Boulder.  If I remember correctly (I dont trust 30 year old memories :) ) the owners ended up selling because they couldn't handle all the tourists.


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#28 OFFLINE   The Merg

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 07:43 PM

@Tomcat:

That's not true. The show does not have to air. It all depends on the Guide Data. In the case for Grimm, my DVR recorded even though Grimm had been pre-empted since the Guide Data hadn't changed.

By changing the episode title, the DVR believes it is a new episode and will record it.

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#29 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 02 May 2013 - 06:48 PM

Thanks for the link, that is an interesting story.  It sounds like it is working out better for the homeowners  than it did 30 years ago here in Colorado for the Mork & Mindy house in Boulder.  If I remember correctly (I dont trust 30 year old memories :) ) the owners ended up selling because they couldn't handle all the tourists.

 

Or the Amityville Horror house, it ended up being renumbered and renovated to get rid of the windows.



#30 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:41 PM

@Tomcat:

That's not true. The show does not have to air. It all depends on the Guide Data. In the case for Grimm, my DVR recorded even though Grimm had been pre-empted since the Guide Data hadn't changed.

By changing the episode title, the DVR believes it is a new episode and will record it.

- Merg

 

I reject your version of reality and substitute my own, then, is it?

 

Merg, please understand that I have great respect for you and I consider you probably the smartest and most level-headed member of this forum, but I'm sorry; it just is not that simple. "That's not true" is an opinion, but also a sweeping statement with nothing evident so far to back it up other than your imagination. You are entitled to an opinion, as am I, but that is all either of them are without facts to back them up. I guess we could agree to disagree, but when things enter the realm of sweeping statements expected to be blindly swallowed whole, there has to be some attempt at accountability.

 

Whether we agree on that or not, here is my version of reality; I'm sorry that some things do not have shorter explanations, but sometimes understanding implies detail:

 

It may appear to you that repeat or first run status depends on the episode title or guide data because that status and what appears in the guide are usually choreographed to be in concert with each other. But status and guide data/ep title are actually two different things independent from one another. I can change my phone number and I can change my address, and changing one will not always imply a change of the other because they too, are two different things independent of each other. If I change my address I may not have to change my phone number, or I may, depending. But they are still two independent things.

 

I disagree that it depends on guide data; my understandint is that it depends instead on a metadata flag independent from guide data, and that is metadata that can be manipulated to get your DVR to see any program as having whatever run status they want it to have regardless of the title and regardless of whether it ever aired or not.

 

Mistakes with guide data out of sync with that metadata have listed programs that are first run as repeats, and vice versa. And whether they record or not depends not on the episode title at all, but on how the metadata flag might be set and how your particular DVR is programmed to handle it (first run, repeats, both) and whether or not it concurs with the 28-day rule. The episode title is absolutely irrelevant.

 

Having an episode scheduled, then pulled, renamed, then rescheduled would be the ideal opportunity for the provider to manipulate the metadata flag so that the show is tagged as first run regardless of the ep title, and that is also a case where my personal definition of first run coincides. Yours may not, but neither matters.

 

And you can't really have any idea how many times the guide data may have changed or may not have changed, because all you see is what is scheduled, which is merely a subset of the metadata. The only one who knows is the person who has the ability to change it. lots of metadata is not represented in what the customer gets to see in the EPG, and particulary not displayed is how many times it was changed, when it was changed, or if it was changed at all.

 

Every episode of every program has an unchanging unique identifier independent of the title, sort of like an ESN, or MAC address, or SS#. The DVR does not keep a record of the episode title for the purpose of determining run status, it instead keeps a record of the run status metadata flag associated with that identifier that each recorded show has and creates exception lists based on the DVR's local database of shows (by virtue of their unique identifiers) recorded and available and shows recorded but deleted in the past 28 days. Those "do record" and "don't record" exception lists are what the SL refers to when a potential recording opportunity arises.

 

The episode title and the metadata flag are typically in concert with each other, but they are two different things that can be manipulated independently when necessary; the metadata flag can be changed independently from the title, meaning that the title can change and your DVR may not record it because the metadata flag accidentally indicates it is a repeat, or the title may not change but the ep still may be recorded accidentally a second time if the metadata was not also changed.

 

A perfect example is Continuum. It aired first in Canada, yet the guide data indicated that it aired many months earlier than it aired on Syfy. But it still enjoyed first run status (and my DVR dutifully recorded it), regardless of whether it was considered a repeat in Canada due to the ep title or guide data, because the run status metadata flag was properly reset for first run in the USA. If manipulating the ep title were part of what determines the repeat status, then same-week second airings of Veep, Defiance, Justified, and probably hundreds of other uncounted cable shows throughout the week, would prevent those who missed the premiere airing from being able to automatically get the second airing. So that pretty much proves that relying on the ep title can not be the way that works.

 

What I said is that a show has to air to gain repeat status, meaning it has to air to become eligible for repeat status (not talking about an ep that typically repeats multiple times in the same week, which is still considered first run) and I stand by that, because in what world would it rightly be considered a repeat if it had never aired? When a show has aired, and finished its first run, typically only then is the metadata flag changed to reflect that it has the status of repeat or second run, depending on how closely repeats are scheduled. But that is typically managed manually, so mistakes can happen and when they do, all bets are off on whether it will record or not.

 

What NBC did with the title or guide data is irrelevant, and what they did with the run status metadata flag is totally relevant. Apparently they handled that correctly, because the ep recorded for users that had it in a SL.

 

Absolute facts? I have none, just like you. Accept the premise or don't. But working directly with these sorts of similar issues for decades, I know how these things work. And this version makes sense.


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#31 OFFLINE   yosoyellobo

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:47 PM

I was under the impression that it was my receiver that control the status of a programs as to first run or not. I have in the past had show that for some reason or another did not recorded the first time showed and have recorded the rerun.

Edited by yosoyellobo, 04 May 2013 - 09:48 PM.


#32 OFFLINE   The Merg

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 07:38 AM

I reject your version of reality and substitute my own, then, is it?

 

Merg, please understand that I have great respect for you and I consider you probably the smartest and most level-headed member of this forum, but I'm sorry; it just is not that simple. "That's not true" is an opinion, but also a sweeping statement with nothing evident so far to back it up other than your imagination. You are entitled to an opinion, as am I, but that is all either of them are without facts to back them up. I guess we could agree to disagree, but when things enter the realm of sweeping statements expected to be blindly swallowed whole, there has to be some attempt at accountability.

 

Whether we agree on that or not, here is my version of reality; I'm sorry that some things do not have shorter explanations, but sometimes understanding implies detail:

 

It may appear to you that repeat or first run status depends on the episode title or guide data because that status and what appears in the guide are usually choreographed to be in concert with each other. But status and guide data/ep title are actually two different things independent from one another. I can change my phone number and I can change my address, and changing one will not always imply a change of the other because they too, are two different things independent of each other. If I change my address I may not have to change my phone number, or I may, depending. But they are still two independent things.

 

I disagree that it depends on guide data; my understandint is that it depends instead on a metadata flag independent from guide data, and that is metadata that can be manipulated to get your DVR to see any program as having whatever run status they want it to have regardless of the title and regardless of whether it ever aired or not.

 

Mistakes with guide data out of sync with that metadata have listed programs that are first run as repeats, and vice versa. And whether they record or not depends not on the episode title at all, but on how the metadata flag might be set and how your particular DVR is programmed to handle it (first run, repeats, both) and whether or not it concurs with the 28-day rule. The episode title is absolutely irrelevant.

 

Having an episode scheduled, then pulled, renamed, then rescheduled would be the ideal opportunity for the provider to manipulate the metadata flag so that the show is tagged as first run regardless of the ep title, and that is also a case where my personal definition of first run coincides. Yours may not, but neither matters.

 

And you can't really have any idea how many times the guide data may have changed or may not have changed, because all you see is what is scheduled, which is merely a subset of the metadata. The only one who knows is the person who has the ability to change it. lots of metadata is not represented in what the customer gets to see in the EPG, and particulary not displayed is how many times it was changed, when it was changed, or if it was changed at all.

 

Every episode of every program has an unchanging unique identifier independent of the title, sort of like an ESN, or MAC address, or SS#. The DVR does not keep a record of the episode title for the purpose of determining run status, it instead keeps a record of the run status metadata flag associated with that identifier that each recorded show has and creates exception lists based on the DVR's local database of shows (by virtue of their unique identifiers) recorded and available and shows recorded but deleted in the past 28 days. Those "do record" and "don't record" exception lists are what the SL refers to when a potential recording opportunity arises.

 

The episode title and the metadata flag are typically in concert with each other, but they are two different things that can be manipulated independently when necessary; the metadata flag can be changed independently from the title, meaning that the title can change and your DVR may not record it because the metadata flag accidentally indicates it is a repeat, or the title may not change but the ep still may be recorded accidentally a second time if the metadata was not also changed.

 

A perfect example is Continuum. It aired first in Canada, yet the guide data indicated that it aired many months earlier than it aired on Syfy. But it still enjoyed first run status (and my DVR dutifully recorded it), regardless of whether it was considered a repeat in Canada due to the ep title or guide data, because the run status metadata flag was properly reset for first run in the USA. If manipulating the ep title were part of what determines the repeat status, then same-week second airings of Veep, Defiance, Justified, and probably hundreds of other uncounted cable shows throughout the week, would prevent those who missed the premiere airing from being able to automatically get the second airing. So that pretty much proves that relying on the ep title can not be the way that works.

 

What I said is that a show has to air to gain repeat status, meaning it has to air to become eligible for repeat status (not talking about an ep that typically repeats multiple times in the same week, which is still considered first run) and I stand by that, because in what world would it rightly be considered a repeat if it had never aired? When a show has aired, and finished its first run, typically only then is the metadata flag changed to reflect that it has the status of repeat or second run, depending on how closely repeats are scheduled. But that is typically managed manually, so mistakes can happen and when they do, all bets are off on whether it will record or not.

 

What NBC did with the title or guide data is irrelevant, and what they did with the run status metadata flag is totally relevant. Apparently they handled that correctly, because the ep recorded for users that had it in a SL.

 

Absolute facts? I have none, just like you. Accept the premise or don't. But working directly with these sorts of similar issues for decades, I know how these things work. And this version makes sense.

 

I think you missed my point. The episode of Grimm was set to record on that night. The episode itself was pre-empted, however, the Guide Data and DVRs both thought that Grimm was still airing so the DVRs recorded that time slot, which did not have the episode of Grimm. For all purposes, the DVR believes that it has recorded that episode. If they just reaired the episode, it would not record as the DVR has already believed that it has recorded that episode. By changing the title of the episode and the original air date, the DVR then sees it as a new episode and will record it as such.

 

As you mentioned there are many parameters that make up whether or not an episode is seen as a First Run or not by a DVR. If any of those items changes that can trigger an episode to be seen as a First Run by the DVR. As for your explanation of manipulating the title would prevent recording of second airings to not record, I don't follow you there. With regard to Continuum recording even though the OAD is old since it originally aired in Canada, it appears that SyFy finally got it right with regard to the First Run flag, which is the true indicator if something is First Run or not. Unfortunately, we don't have access to that Flag as a setting when specifying First Run or Repeat. I remember in the past that Charlie Jade (a great show, by the way) would not record unless you had it set for Repeat as the First Run flag was not set correctly.

 

- Merg


Today's problems don't worry me, I haven't solved yesterday's yet.

SlimLine-3 Dish w/ SWM16 (HD Service / WHDVR) / Full Setup
HR34-700 / Panasonic TC-P50G25 HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA / Family Room
HR44-700 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom

HR24-100 / Samsung HCM5525W HDTV / Component / Networked - DECA / Bedroom





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