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swm-500 feet with 2 in the middle and 9 at the end

swm and distance

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13 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   175ranger

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 03:04 PM

I am a residential dealer and installer. I have a large custom. The only line of sight is 200+ feet from a guest house that will have 2 swm tuners. Then I have 200+ feet of conduit to main house that will have 9 swm tuners. I can seem to get a straight answer on how or what to put in the guest house, meaning do I use a swm 16 or look more towards mdu type equipment. I can run RG11 from dish to guest house, but have to run RG6 from guest house to main house. 

 

any help or ideas would be great, thank you in advance.



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#2 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:07 PM

I would start looking for Sonora amps ...



#3 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:33 PM

you said 200+.  what is the plus?

 

and you would need at least a pair of coax cable to run the 9 tuners on the main house.


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#4 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 10:23 PM

What's the goal here? Do they want whole home working across all 9 tuners in the main house? If so, you want to keep that traffic local to the main house and not have to travel via the guest house. Either use ethernet for whole home, or use the NAS diplexer solution on solidsignal.com if an all-ethernet solution isn't possible.

 

Four RG11 from SL3/SL5 dish -> SWM16 in the guest house. A 200+ foot run should not present problems on RG11. PI29 -> SWM16 PWR port. SWM1 port -> first RG6 to the main house. SWM2 port -> two way splitter, with one port serving the guest house (use another 2 way splitter behind that if the "2 tuners" in the guest house is two separate receivers) and the other splitter port feeds to a second RG6 going to the main house.

 

At the main house, connect a single HD-DVR, or single tuner receiver if there are no non-Genie HD-DVRs, directly to the SWM2 port coax that was split in the guest house, using a barrel connector. Use the smallest splitter necessary for the SWM1 port coax that wasn't split. Hopefully you need only a two way splitter.

 

If you're lucky and things work out like above, with a Genie and two HD-DVRs in the main house for the 9 tuners, you would only have a two way splitter on each SWM port, and if the runs inside the main house aren't all that long there's a decent chance it'll make the 200+ foot run to the house without needing any amplification, depending on what the value of '+' is :)

 

If you need a four way split of the SWM1 port, or the runs inside the house are kinda long, you may need one or two Sonora SWM amps. They aren't that expensive, so might be worth adding just to be safe unless you have a SWM meter and are sure the signal levels at all receivers in the house are good. You may want to run four RG6 to the house instead of just two, for future proofing.


Edited by slice1900, 26 May 2013 - 10:23 PM.

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#5 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 11:57 PM

What's the goal here?

 

If you need a four way split of the SWM1 port, or the runs inside the house are kinda long, you may need one or two Sonora SWM amps. They aren't that expensive, so might be worth adding just to be safe unless you have a SWM meter and are sure the signal levels at all receivers in the house are good. You may want to run four RG6 to the house instead of just two, for future proofing.

You've asked a good question.

 

Currently there aren't any amps from Sonora that will amplify the DECA/Coax networking signal, so use and placement of amps can limited the coax networking.


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#6 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:05 AM

Currently there aren't any amps from Sonora that will amplify the DECA/Coax networking signal

 

 

That's also my understanding, which is why I suggested using ethernet for whole home, or failing that the NAS diplexer solution shown at solidsignal.com, in order to keep the whole home traffic local to the main house. Even if SWM connectivity can be achieved without amplification, it seems unlikely the DECA signals could reliably make the round trip through the SWM16's DECA bridge between receivers on different SWM ports.


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#7 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:52 AM

That's also my understanding, which is why I suggested using ethernet for whole home, or failing that the NAS diplexer solution shown at solidsignal.com, in order to keep the whole home traffic local to the main house. Even if SWM connectivity can be achieved without amplification, it seems unlikely the DECA signals could reliably make the round trip through the SWM16's DECA bridge between receivers on different SWM ports.

RG11 & an amp will take care of the dish to SWiM-16 [mounted at the guest house].
RG6 between the guest house and main house isn't the best option.
Two RG11 runs would save about 7 dB of loss for the coax networking. <- this would be my choice.
As the creator of the "NAS diplexer solution shown at solidsignal", yes there is 5 dB less loss over the SWiM-16 crossover.

"The model" shows using one 2-way, one 4-way, and 250' runs of RG6 are within a couple of dB of the max.
Using RG11 reduces the SWiM loss by 7 dB & the DECA [over 2 lengths] by 7 dB too.
The diplexer crossover could gain another 5 dB.
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#8 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

Shouldn't using the your NAS diplexer solution save a hell of a lot more than that and not require use of RG11? I'm guessing the reason he said he had to use RG6 to the main house was because of the conduit he mentioned. He may be concerned about successfully pulling RG11 through it, either due to lack of room or some tight bends. There's no need for RG11 for SWM, since you always have the option of amplifying the signal, and SWM amps are pretty cheap. The savings from using RG6 instead of RG11 may even pay for the amps, but it sounds like he believes he has no choice in the matter anyway.

 

I was assuming use of the diplexers to connect the two SWM legs in the main house, not at the SWM16 in the guest house. That way DECA doesn't have to make the long journey there and back, and there's no need to use RG11 to reduce losses due to the inability to amplify the DECA signals. I still think ethernet only is the way to go for whole home if at all possible. If he's fortunate enough that the house already has cat5 run to all the receiver locations, it is a no brainer. A gigabit switch to connect them all, and it will be a far faster and far more reliable network than DECA.

 

What I'm thinking for your diplexer solution is putting them inline (backwards) where the RG6 enters the main house, with the SAT outputs going back to the guest house, and the ANT outputs connected together on a splitter. The diplexers would introduce very little additional loss for the SWM signal, the DECA stays in the house, and if he needs SWM amps it won't present a problem for the DECA.

 

Are you sure he'd need an amp for the signal from the dish, even if he uses RG11? What's the typical output of a legacy LNB and how much loss is there in 200 feet of RG11? Are you thinking the losses will put the signal below the threshold where the SWM16's AGC would bring it back to nominal? Of course, he did say it was "200+" feet, so this may once again depend on what the value of '+' is :)


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#9 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:44 PM

Shouldn't using the your NAS diplexer solution save a hell of a lot more than that and not require use of RG11? I'm guessing the reason he said he had to use RG6 to the main house was because of the conduit he mentioned. He may be concerned about successfully pulling RG11 through it, either due to lack of room or some tight bends. There's no need for RG11 for SWM, since you always have the option of amplifying the signal, and SWM amps are pretty cheap. The savings from using RG6 instead of RG11 may even pay for the amps, but it sounds like he believes he has no choice in the matter anyway.

 

I was assuming use of the diplexers to connect the two SWM legs in the main house, not at the SWM16 in the guest house. That way DECA doesn't have to make the long journey there and back, and there's no need to use RG11 to reduce losses due to the inability to amplify the DECA signals. I still think ethernet only is the way to go for whole home if at all possible. If he's fortunate enough that the house already has cat5 run to all the receiver locations, it is a no brainer. A gigabit switch to connect them all, and it will be a far faster and far more reliable network than DECA.

 

What I'm thinking for your diplexer solution is putting them inline (backwards) where the RG6 enters the main house, with the SAT outputs going back to the guest house, and the ANT outputs connected together on a splitter. The diplexers would introduce very little additional loss for the SWM signal, the DECA stays in the house, and if he needs SWM amps it won't present a problem for the DECA.

 

Are you sure he'd need an amp for the signal from the dish, even if he uses RG11? What's the typical output of a legacy LNB and how much loss is there in 200 feet of RG11? Are you thinking the losses will put the signal below the threshold where the SWM16's AGC would bring it back to nominal? Of course, he did say it was "200+" feet, so this may once again depend on what the value of '+' is :)

Diplexer option has about 1 dB loss, where the crossover of the -16 has about 6 dB.

 

You asked a good question a while back, but it hasn't been addressed [yet].

One of the questions might be is the connected home [aka MRV] wanted between the guest and main house?

Would there ever be an interest in having a Genie client in the guest house, with the Genie in the main house?

 

"If no, then" diplexers at the main house keeps the DECA losses within range.

 

"If yes, then":

RG11 really should be used for the 200' runs. as the loss is close to what "only" 135' of RG6 is.

 

If the RG6 is a fixed item, then an amp can be used between the -16's output and the diplexer [going to the 4-way].

This configuration amplifies the SWiM signals on the long runs with the 4-way splitter, while still maintaining the DECA/coax networking.

It's pushing this limit, but should be 5 dB less than the max, so :shrug:

 

As for the loss/gain of the dish to SWiM-16:

You don't want to spec/build a system that only works on a sunny day.

You can have 5 maybe even 10 dB of loss between the LNB & SWiM without problems, but after that, with the long SWiM runs here, the SWiM AGC may not support the full range anymore.

 

Solid Copper Core RG11 @ 200' would have about 13 dB loss at the high end. This can be compensated with an amp with slop correction, which basically takes this distance/length "out of the loop", as it would be as if the SWiM-16 was mounted at the dish. 


A.K.A VOS

#10 OFFLINE   carl6

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:09 PM

If whole home between the buildings is not needed/desired, separate dishes might be the simplest solution.



#11 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:33 PM

If whole home between the buildings is not needed/desired, separate dishes might be the simplest solution.

But this is the problem, according to the TS "The only line of sight is 200+ feet from a guest house…"


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#12 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:07 PM



... What I'm thinking for your diplexer solution is putting them inline (backwards) where the RG6 enters the main house, with the SAT outputs going back to the guest house, and the ANT outputs connected together on a splitter. The diplexers would introduce very little additional loss for the SWM signal, the DECA stays in the house, and if he needs SWM amps it won't present a problem for the DECA. ...

Lost me there;

Shouldn't you just connect the two diplexers in the home OTA ports together directly without the need of any intervening splitter between them in this setup?

Edited by HoTat2, 27 May 2013 - 10:09 PM.

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#13 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 02:07 AM

Lost me there;

Shouldn't you just connect the two diplexers in the home OTA ports together directly without the need of any intervening splitter between them in this setup?

 

 

You could do it that way, unless you wanted to use a CCK.


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#14 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 28 May 2013 - 06:46 AM

You could do it that way, unless you wanted to use a CCK.

I don't think this is a "you could do", but more "you would do" it that way.

 

There is no need [ever] for a combining splitter, when you only have two. The combining splitter was used solely to combine two SWiM-16s [or four coax].

Where a CCK connects shouldn't matter, but if you have a combining splitter, you also have an unused input port, where a CCK can be connected.


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