Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Building new home- considering D*


  • Please log in to reply
49 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   Drucifer

Drucifer

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,491 posts
  • LocationNY Hudson Valley
Joined: Feb 12, 2009

Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:21 PM

Just an update...
 
I met with the AV guy earlier this week.  I must say- I'm suffering from sticker shock.  The house is spec'd to have 1 data/cable outlet per room.  
 
I asked to have additional drops in a few rooms in case we want to place the TV in a different spot.  He's quoting us $150 per additional drop.  We're looking at $730 for 5 additional drops.
 
Is that a reasonable price???
 
(He didn't even quote me on running cable to the attic for the satellite.)


If they home runs, that's about right.


DREW
Do it Right, Do it Once
LR: HR34-7, Bsm: HR24-1, Den HR24-2, MB: HR24-5, Kit: H25-5
PrimeStar '95, DirecTV  '00


...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#27 OFFLINE   appstate

appstate

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 10 posts
  • LocationCharlotte NC
Joined: Jun 25, 2013

Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:23 PM

Thanks AllStar for your feedback!  

 

The builder spec'd that each room have 1 drop for cable/cat5.  They also spec'd 7.1 in the great room.  

 

The AV guy is a regular sub contractor and the builder uses them for all their jobs.  

 

I should note that the construction is more of a spec home.  The builder owns the land and waits until a buyer makes on offer on the new home.  Then the builder will allow the buyer to customize and make changes.  

 

We- the buyer- don't have a say in who the subs are... at least that's how the builder explained.  But I'm going to ask the builder if we can look else where for additional quotes.



#28 OFFLINE   appstate

appstate

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 10 posts
  • LocationCharlotte NC
Joined: Jun 25, 2013

Posted 05 July 2013 - 12:25 PM

Also- regarding the drops.  The AV guy is running cable to a central board (is that the right terminology?) where all the cable will be organized.

 

Thought I should include this so you can get a better understanding of what they are providing.



#29 ONLINE   carl6

carl6

    Hall Of Fame

  • Moderators
  • 11,609 posts
  • LocationSeattle, WA
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 05 July 2013 - 10:23 PM

I would not recommend doing any type of wiring during constructin without the GC approval. If you do something not to code or spec, the rework charges to fix it will be well beyond what they are quoting you for the drops.  Someone said "that sounded about right", I don't know, but agree it sounds high.



#30 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,390 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:27 PM

I would not recommend doing any type of wiring during constructin without the GC approval. If you do something not to code or spec, the rework charges to fix it will be well beyond what they are quoting you for the drops.  Someone said "that sounded about right", I don't know, but agree it sounds high.

Awesome comment NOT to get dismissed.  In order for you to be able to run the cable yourself you will have to be licensed and insured.  The price quoted is about the standard charge for new construction "additions" or changes to the current plan


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#31 OFFLINE   appstate

appstate

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 10 posts
  • LocationCharlotte NC
Joined: Jun 25, 2013

Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:58 PM

I appreciate everyone's responses.  I'm definitely NOT going to try and DIY.  

 

I just wanted to get some opinions on the quote I received.  I don't want to be the guy who tries to lowball contractors; nor do I try to devalue what AV contractors offer.  

 

I don't like it when my clients try to commoditize what I do.  

 

I just worry that he's going to bend me over with over priced wiring. When I told him I would supply the HDMI cables, he gave me the "don't buy Monoprice $2 HDMI cables" speech.  His HDMI cables are $79.  Monoprice is $20.  I also told him if I hire him for installation, I'll supply the TV mounts too.



#32 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Never say 'never'.

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,652 posts
  • LocationWinters, CA, between Napa and Sacramento
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:33 PM

Ouch! 

 

The roof may or may not be the best place for your dish. Min is located on the wall, just under the peak of the roof, and a tree on one side blocks it from view while it has a clear shot at the satellite. It may also make a difference to what the roofing materials are-mine is a tiled roof! But aesthetically, a side mount may be a nice alternative. 

 

Best of luck!


"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#33 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,390 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 07 July 2013 - 04:50 PM

 

I just worry that he's going to bend me over with over priced wiring. When I told him I would supply the HDMI cables, he gave me the "don't buy Monoprice $2 HDMI cables" speech.  His HDMI cables are $79.  Monoprice is $20.  I also told him if I hire him for installation, I'll supply the TV mounts too.

Well, he can only guarantee what he supplies.  and that might be part of the cost. 


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#34 OFFLINE   TDockUSC

TDockUSC

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 43 posts
  • LocationMyrtle Beach, SC
Joined: Aug 22, 2006

Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:08 PM

I find myself in the exact same situation as the OP and wanted to ask a followup if I could.  

 

Why 2 coax cables at every spot?  I thought that all the receivers including Genie can get all they need from 1 coax cable now...am I incorrect?

 

If that is correct, are the extra cables just there for future purposes?

 

Thanks. 


Edited by TDockUSC, 09 July 2013 - 02:09 PM.


#35 OFFLINE   longrider

longrider

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 3,493 posts
  • LocationElizabeth, CO
Joined: Apr 21, 2007

Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:21 PM

I find myself in the exact same situation as the OP and wanted to ask a followup if I could.  
 
Why 2 coax cables at every spot?  I thought that all the receivers including Genie can get all they need from 1 coax cable now...am I incorrect?
 
If that is correct, are the extra cables just there for future purposes?
 
Thanks.


Yes, it is futureproofing. When the house is being built the cost difference between running one cable and running 4 to a location is insignificant. Even in a retrofit the cost is in the wallfishing, might as well pull 4 while you are doing it. The second coax could be used for many things, what comes to mind quickly would be OTA or cable internet with DirecTV for TV.

I would also pull two data cables to each location for the same reason. One for phone and one for data, I use CAT5/6 for both again for futureproofing
My Setup

#36 OFFLINE   TDockUSC

TDockUSC

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 43 posts
  • LocationMyrtle Beach, SC
Joined: Aug 22, 2006

Posted 09 July 2013 - 02:22 PM

Yes, it is futureproofing. When the house is being built the cost difference between running one cable and running 4 to a location is insignificant. Even in a retrofit the cost is in the wallfishing, might as well pull 4 while you are doing it. The second coax could be used for many things, what comes to mind quickly would be OTA or cable internet with DirecTV for TV.

I would also pull two data cables to each location for the same reason. One for phone and one for data, I use CAT5/6 for both again for futureproofing

Thanks for the reply.  Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.  



#37 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,881 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:30 PM

Obviously you need enough coax for what you need to do today, or could reasonably see yourself doing in the future - so you need one now, but maybe want two if there's even the slightest chance you might want to add an AM21 for OTA capability, or might become one of the crazy people who pay for both Directv and cable TV. But four? I have a hard time seeing any possible future where you'd ever need that. Yeah, its cheap to pull, but a lot of people seem to go crazy with pulling coax that they never use, kind of like all the "smart" people a decade ago who thought they were being smart pulling fiber in new construction which isn't and will never be used in a home environment by consumer products.

 

You're much better off pulling extra cat5/cat6 than pulling extra coax. There will never be any new technologies that use coax, but at some point everything that uses wired cabling aside from 120v/240v AC is likely to converge on cat5e/cat6a. For instance, the new HDbaseT spec will see TVs soon available for sale that include RJ45 connectors for HDMI input. There is more and more (typically commercial so far) audio equipment that uses cat5 for balanced line level audio. It is often used in low voltage applications for carrying IR and various sensor inputs for burglar alarms, water alarms etc. Security cameras often uses cat5 these days, even when it is a simple composite video signal (if for no other reason it makes it easier to upgrade to IP cameras in the future, which of course use cat5 and are often powered via the same cat5 cable)

 

At some point in the future I think we'll start seeing cat5/cat6 replacing coax for cable and satellite TV. Instead of sticking five tuners in a Genie, stick 8 or 16 tuners on a single chip in a SWM multiswitch or SWM LNB and have it output a single cat5 cable carrying the tuned channels via IP that DVRs, receivers or RVU devices can select. There's a lot of coax already out there so it won't be something they'll retrofit, but I could easily see it becoming the preferred method for new installs within the decade.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#38 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,390 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 09 July 2013 - 03:40 PM

Obviously you need enough coax for what you need to do today, or could reasonably see yourself doing in the future - so you need one now, but maybe want two if there's even the slightest chance you might want to add an AM21 for OTA capability, or might become one of the crazy people who pay for both Directv and cable TV. But four?

I dont think longrider meant that "literally"  more like figurative speech


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#39 OFFLINE   longrider

longrider

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 3,493 posts
  • LocationElizabeth, CO
Joined: Apr 21, 2007

Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:39 AM

Rereading my post I can see how it could be taken that way but the four included the 2 data - 2 coax and 2 data to every location


My Setup

#40 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 17,336 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:29 PM

That pricing is not out of line for a good quality installer.  

 

Mono price is good cables, as long as you get the right ones.  Ask him what brand and where he gets his.

 

Ask for additional empty 2 inch conduit run from the main location where all the home runs go to the attic, and if possible also to the main tv location int he house.

 

And if you can get a bigger home run spot, do it.  They are often smaller than they should be...



#41 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 17,336 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:32 PM

Awesome comment NOT to get dismissed.  In order for you to be able to run the cable yourself you will have to be licensed and insured.  The price quoted is about the standard charge for new construction "additions" or changes to the current plan

 

 

 

You actually do not need to be licensed and insured to run your own cables to pass inspection in all states, if you already own the building. I doubt he does yet though in this case.



#42 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,390 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:34 PM

You actually do not need to be licensed and insured to run your own cables to pass inspection in all states, if you already own the building. I doubt he does yet though in this case.

thus my comment


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#43 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 17,336 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:39 PM

Obviously you need enough coax for what you need to do today, or could reasonably see yourself doing in the future - so you need one now, but maybe want two if there's even the slightest chance you might want to add an AM21 for OTA capability, or might become one of the crazy people who pay for both Directv and cable TV. But four? I have a hard time seeing any possible future where you'd ever need that. Yeah, its cheap to pull, but a lot of people seem to go crazy with pulling coax that they never use, kind of like all the "smart" people a decade ago who thought they were being smart pulling fiber in new construction which isn't and will never be used in a home environment by consumer products.

 

You're much better off pulling extra cat5/cat6 than pulling extra coax. There will never be any new technologies that use coax, but at some point everything that uses wired cabling aside from 120v/240v AC is likely to converge on cat5e/cat6a. For instance, the new HDbaseT spec will see TVs soon available for sale that include RJ45 connectors for HDMI input. There is more and more (typically commercial so far) audio equipment that uses cat5 for balanced line level audio. It is often used in low voltage applications for carrying IR and various sensor inputs for burglar alarms, water alarms etc. Security cameras often uses cat5 these days, even when it is a simple composite video signal (if for no other reason it makes it easier to upgrade to IP cameras in the future, which of course use cat5 and are often powered via the same cat5 cable)

 

At some point in the future I think we'll start seeing cat5/cat6 replacing coax for cable and satellite TV. Instead of sticking five tuners in a Genie, stick 8 or 16 tuners on a single chip in a SWM multiswitch or SWM LNB and have it output a single cat5 cable carrying the tuned channels via IP that DVRs, receivers or RVU devices can select. There's a lot of coax already out there so it won't be something they'll retrofit, but I could easily see it becoming the preferred method for new installs within the decade.

 

 

I believe in over doing it if you are doing it yourself.  I ran five rg6 lines, two cat 6 lines, and a phone line to main tv spots in a home i was doing for a realitve.  When you look at the cost to do that with what wire is, its super cheap to do when the walls are open.  (I figured the extra runs over 2 as 2 is an absolute min for anything, cost about $350 on a 400k place to build, so nothing really)  Hes set for anything other than a full move to fiber, which i don't see coming soon.  But just in case, from the entrance point of the house to the main distribution center, there is an  empty and waiting conduit if that ever happens.   ;)

 

Don't forget, there are other things that people might want to run, and with moca, coax is like Ethernet if needed to if suddenly for some reason 2 cat6 runs by themselves isn't enough.  I can always come up with a reason, even if it is extreme.



#44 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,881 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:05 PM

But by 2020 he'll wish he had 5 cat6 lines rather than 5 coax. No new application will ever use that RG6, it is legacy wiring. Yeah, you can use wires for things they weren't designed for, using technologies like MoCA or powerline ethernet, X10, etc. but doing so adds cost and trades flexibility and performance over doing it right.

 

I can't imagine what he'll ever use 5 RG6 lines to a TV location for, unless you think he's going to be shipping component video around (accepting possible interference and giving up ever doing 4K) Or maybe he might send unbalanced analog audio from an iPod dock along with digital audio from a receiver located there for a whole house audio system? If you gave him more cat6 and less RG6, he'd be more effectively future proofed not having to live within the limitations of coax.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#45 OFFLINE   Drucifer

Drucifer

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,491 posts
  • LocationNY Hudson Valley
Joined: Feb 12, 2009

Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:47 PM

Always look at SmartHome for ideas of present & future electronics in the home.


DREW
Do it Right, Do it Once
LR: HR34-7, Bsm: HR24-1, Den HR24-2, MB: HR24-5, Kit: H25-5
PrimeStar '95, DirecTV  '00


#46 OFFLINE   unixguru

unixguru

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 648 posts
Joined: Jul 09, 2007

Posted 11 July 2013 - 09:32 AM

Conduit everywhere!

 

Whatever you put in, no matter the quantity, will surely be obsolete before the house is.

 



#47 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,881 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:56 AM

Conduit is a great idea, but I've had several friends who ran conduit and later found it impossible to pull anything through - maybe they had bends too tight or something like that.

 

Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about something becoming obsolete before the house is. I'd just want it to not become obsolete as long as I owned the house. The new owner is going to find things aren't to his liking no matter what you do - he'll want to put TVs on different walls, hang them from ceiling mounts, put them behind bathroom mirrors or who knows what else that you don't want to do, so even with conduit he's not going to get exactly what he wants without fishing/opening walls.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#48 OFFLINE   Drucifer

Drucifer

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 8,491 posts
  • LocationNY Hudson Valley
Joined: Feb 12, 2009

Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:29 PM

Conduit is a great idea, but I've had several friends who ran conduit and later found it impossible to pull anything through - maybe they had bends too tight or something like that.

 

. . . ..

Bends? There should be no bends. If you need to turn, you use a junction box that is accessible. 


DREW
Do it Right, Do it Once
LR: HR34-7, Bsm: HR24-1, Den HR24-2, MB: HR24-5, Kit: H25-5
PrimeStar '95, DirecTV  '00


#49 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,390 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 11 July 2013 - 04:49 PM

Bends? There should be no bends. If you need to turn, you use a junction box that is accessible. 

you can actually have up to two "bends" in a conduit and the cable will pull fine.  have three or more game over!!!


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#50 OFFLINE   unixguru

unixguru

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 648 posts
Joined: Jul 09, 2007

Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:43 AM

Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about something becoming obsolete before the house is. I'd just want it to not become obsolete as long as I owned the house. The new owner is going to find things aren't to his liking no matter what you do - he'll want to put TVs on different walls, hang them from ceiling mounts, put them behind bathroom mirrors or who knows what else that you don't want to do, so even with conduit he's not going to get exactly what he wants without fishing/opening walls.

 

Ok, I shouldn't have said obsolete house.

 

I didn't expect to be in the same house 20+ years after building it but here I am and will be a lot longer it seems.  In those 20 years I've had more cables pulled several times and fought many battles.  Some battles I just didn't start because I knew the hassle.

 

If I ever build again (likely requiring more $ than I have), I would use suspended ceilings.  You can get very nice looking suspended ceilings - even made out of wood (including coffered).  With that it becomes trivial to do anything with wiring.






Protected By... spam firewall...And...