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Pac-12 Networks confident, even without DirecTV


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#2026 OFFLINE   BlackDynamite

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 07:34 AM

No satellite is national.
Sure they carry local channels, but the company isn't regional like most cable companies.
Take my local Cable company, Blue ridge cable, serves northeastern and central Pa. But has over 5 different channel lineups.
But Directv could certainly make Pac 12 regional , My guess Pac 12 wants it national, and Directv doesn't want to pay those fees, when I'm sure most of the nation doesn't care about Pac 12.

Some of Directv is national, sure, but since of the programming is definitely regional.

I listed local channels not being beamed to other areas as an example but we could also look at the sports networks. Games from other areas are blacked out.

Edited by BlackDynamite, 25 May 2015 - 07:35 AM.


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#2027 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 08:27 AM

Each year that DIRECTV doesn't carry it just makes it that much less valuable to DIRECTV.

Each year that DIRECTV doesn't carry Pac 12 moves a number of subscribers off the dime that were pretty certain that DIRECTV would ultimately carry Pac 12.
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#2028 OFFLINE   Shades228

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 01:00 PM

Each year that DIRECTV doesn't carry Pac 12 moves a number of subscribers off the dime that were pretty certain that DIRECTV would ultimately carry Pac 12.

 

I don't think anyone has been certain DIRECTV would carry it after the first year. There might be some holding onto some hope that it may happen some day. I continue to hope for an unedited release of the original Star Wars trilogy on blu-ray but I think we all know in the back of our heads that it's not going to be any time soon. 



#2029 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 01:46 PM

Some of Directv is national, sure, but since of the programming is definitely regional.

I listed local channels not being beamed to other areas as an example but we could also look at the sports networks. Games from other areas are blacked out.

 

Delivering something like Pac 12 via the spot beams used for locals is not an option. First of all in some areas the spot beam capacity is maxed out, and second there are some areas where there are no locals at all. Do you tell people who live there "sorry, you don't get Pac 12". Directv provides them alternate locals (from LA if you live out west) but they'd be SOL if they started offering spot beam only RSNs.

 

So they have to deliver it nationally, but that doesn't mean they can't treat it like a RSN and you get it in region but have to get the sports pack or buy it ala carte out of region. However, if Pac 12 Network doesn't offer it on those terms then the question is moot. No one knows for sure who is offering what since the public statements of each are going to be designed to make the other look like the bad guy.

 

Directv has said they don't feel what Pac 12 is offering them is worth the asking price, while Pac 12 has said they're offering Directv the same terms that others have accepted. Both could be true if for instance Pac 12 says they want the same carriage offered to BTN, which on Dish means regional carriage plus sports pack out of region, but on Directv would mean national carriage in Choice and above which they may not want to pay for - hence their complaint about price. Who knows what Pac 12 wants or Directv is willing to offer as far as the six additional full time channels, that's another source of potential complication where they might have some language like "you offer the regional channels in areas where you have more than x subscribers" which allowed Dish to carry only two of them but maybe would require Directv to offer more/all of them.

 

These deals aren't a problem for cable companies because they have a ton of subsidiaries for all their separate operations that can negotiate separately. Comcast of Oregon I and Comcast of Oregon II might negotiate to carry Pac 12 on a basic tier along with the Oregon regional channel, while Comcast of Richmond may not carry Pac 12 at all. If Directv carried all seven Pac 12 channels that's a lot of bandwidth that could be used for other stuff, but Comcast in Florida wouldn't have to devote any bandwidth to it. BTN and SEC Network only activate their alternates a few hundred hours a year, so the rest of the time Directv can use that bandwidth for PPV channels that make them a lot of money. Pac 12 would thus cost a lot more to carry than BTN or SEC Network (i.e. lost income from those would-be PPV channels) if they offer more than the base channel.

 

List of the many hundreds of Comcast subsidaries:

 

http://www.sec.gov/A...47243/dex21.htm


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#2030 OFFLINE   BlackDynamite

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 01:47 PM

I don't think anyone has been certain DIRECTV would carry it after the first year. There might be some holding onto some hope that it may happen some day. I continue to hope for an unedited release of the original Star Wars trilogy on blu-ray but I think we all know in the back of our heads that it's not going to be any time soon.

Directv was telling customers it was likely to happen after the first year. I was one of the customers who agreed to a new 2 year commit after the first year because customer service told me the discussions were active and a deal was expected. I figured Directv likes to be the sports leader so customer service was probably right.

Silly me to assume official company representatives have accurate info.

#2031 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 01:48 PM

Each year that DIRECTV doesn't carry Pac 12 moves a number of subscribers off the dime that were pretty certain that DIRECTV would ultimately carry Pac 12.

 

That "number" is very small after the first couple years. They've already taken the hit of not having it for two years, whatever trickle of subscribers who are leaving now having hoped it would be added are not enough for Directv to care about. They lose approximately 10,000 subscribers every day, and add about the same number. If there are one or two guys leaving for someone who carries Pac 12 Network each day it isn't enough to cause them to change their plans at this point.


Edited by slice1900, 25 May 2015 - 01:49 PM.

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#2032 OFFLINE   BlackDynamite

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 01:52 PM

Delivering something like Pac 12 via the spot beams used for locals is not an option. First of all in some areas the spot beam capacity is maxed out, and second there are some areas where there are no locals at all. Do you tell people who live there "sorry, you don't get Pac 12". Directv provides them alternate locals (from LA if you live out west) but they'd be SOL if they started offering spot beam only RSNs.

So they have to deliver it nationally, but that doesn't mean they can't treat it like a RSN and you get it in region but have to get the sports pack or buy it ala carte out of region. However, if Pac 12 Network doesn't offer it on those terms then the question is moot. No one knows for sure who is offering what since the public statements of each are going to be designed to make the other look like the bad guy.

Directv has said they don't feel what Pac 12 is offering them is worth the asking price, while Pac 12 has said they're offering Directv the same terms that others have accepted. Both could be true if for instance Pac 12 says they want the same carriage offered to BTN, which on Dish means regional carriage plus sports pack out of region, but on Directv would mean national carriage in Choice and above which they may not want to pay for - hence their complaint about price. Who knows what Pac 12 wants or Directv is willing to offer as far as the six additional full time channels, that's another source of potential complication where they might have some language like "you offer the regional channels in areas where you have more than x subscribers" which allowed Dish to carry only two of them but maybe would require Directv to offer more/all of them.

These deals aren't a problem for cable companies because they have a ton of subsidiaries for all their separate operations that can negotiate separately. Comcast of Oregon I and Comcast of Oregon II might negotiate to carry Pac 12 on a basic tier along with the Oregon regional channel, while Comcast of Richmond may not carry Pac 12 at all. If Directv carried all seven Pac 12 channels that's a lot of bandwidth that could be used for other stuff, but Comcast in Florida wouldn't have to devote any bandwidth to it. BTN and SEC Network only activate their alternates a few hundred hours a year, so the rest of the time Directv can use that bandwidth for PPV channels that make them a lot of money. Pac 12 would thus cost a lot more to carry than BTN or SEC Network (i.e. lost income from those would-be PPV channels) if they offer more than the base channel.

List of the many hundreds of Comcast subsidaries:

http://www.sec.gov/A...47243/dex21.htm

I'm not going to get into what the pac 12 should offer, because none of us really knows what they've offered or what directv asked for.

But, from a technological perspective, yes, directv absolutely can offer anything they want regionally, spot beam or not.

Directv could set receivers to only show channels that are offered in that area. They could make those channels not even show up in the guide if they wanted. They could also make the tuners not even recognize the channel numbers.

Spot beam is certainly one way to offer a regional service, but it isn't the only possible way.

#2033 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 02:03 PM

I'm not going to get into what the pac 12 should offer, because none of us really knows what they've offered or what directv asked for.

But, from a technological perspective, yes, directv absolutely can offer anything they want regionally, spot beam or not.

Directv could set receivers to only show channels that are offered in that area. They could make those channels not even show up in the guide if they wanted. They could also make the tuners not even recognize the channel numbers.

Spot beam is certainly one way to offer a regional service, but it isn't the only possible way.

 

Sure, they can offer Pac 12 only regionally, but if Pac 12 won't sell it to them on those terms, requiring them to pay x per subscriber in region and y per subscriber out of region it would be pretty silly of Directv to not offer it out of region when they're forced to pay for it.

 

That's why the "same carriage as BTN" that all rumors point to matters, because Directv offers that (and SEC Network) nationally, while Dish and AFAIK all cable providers offer those only regionally. For example on Mediacom I get BTN in a basic package but SEC Network is sports pack. In Alabama the situation is reversed for Mediacom subscribers and they get SEC in a basic package and BTN is in a sports pack. Cable providers in LA probably don't have either on a basic tier. If Pac 12 says "we're just as good as those other conferences, so we're going to demand the same terms of carriage from any provider we deal with" then they're not going to let Directv offer it in Choice only in Pac 12 country.


Edited by slice1900, 25 May 2015 - 02:04 PM.

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#2034 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 02:13 PM

I'm not going to get into what the pac 12 should offer, because none of us really knows what they've offered or what directv asked for.

But, from a technological perspective, yes, directv absolutely can offer anything they want regionally, spot beam or not.

Directv could set receivers to only show channels that are offered in that area. They could make those channels not even show up in the guide if they wanted. They could also make the tuners not even recognize the channel numbers.

Spot beam is certainly one way to offer a regional service, but it isn't the only possible way.

Considering all the talk about the pac12 wanting the same carriage as the big 10 it sounded to me they will only accept national coverage meaning what DIRECTV is technically able to do is unimportant.

#2035 OFFLINE   dcowboy7

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 11:07 AM

Directv was telling customers it was likely to happen after the first year. I was one of the customers who agreed to a new 2 year commit after the first year because customer service told me the discussions were active and a deal was expected. I figured Directv likes to be the sports leader so customer service was probably right.

Silly me to assume official company representatives have accurate info.

 

Yea that was silly.


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#2036 OFFLINE   tonyd79

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:46 PM

I'm not going to get into what the pac 12 should offer, because none of us really knows what they've offered or what directv asked for.

But, from a technological perspective, yes, directv absolutely can offer anything they want regionally, spot beam or not.

Directv could set receivers to only show channels that are offered in that area. They could make those channels not even show up in the guide if they wanted. They could also make the tuners not even recognize the channel numbers.

Spot beam is certainly one way to offer a regional service, but it isn't the only possible way.

 

Except if they don't use a spot beam, they are delivering it nationally even if they limit who can tune it in. Are you saying they should use seven national channels to provide local programming to seven markets?


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#2037 OFFLINE   tonyd79

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:50 PM

Each year that DIRECTV doesn't carry Pac 12 moves a number of subscribers off the dime that were pretty certain that DIRECTV would ultimately carry Pac 12.

Stop with that nonsense. Anyone who signed prior to the channel being launched is well beyond that agreement. The network has been up for almost three years (three this August). The exodus has already happened. Any continued exodus beyond August 2011 would be diminishing until it was a trickle by August 2013. Any drops now are lost in the churn noise.


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#2038 OFFLINE   KyL416

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:53 PM

They kind of did it back in the day with Turner South, who despite being delivered on Conus, wasn't available out of market with Sports Pack until Turner sold it to Fox, dropped all the non-sports programming and started its transition to SportSouth. But even then they still used the feed for Extra Innings.

#2039 OFFLINE   BlackDynamite

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:08 PM

Except if they don't use a spot beam, they are delivering it nationally even if they limit who can tune it in. Are you saying they should use seven national channels to provide local programming to seven markets?

No, I'm saying they should provide the whole thing to everyone. Someone else said directv is different than cable companies who provide it because cable companies are regional and satellite is national. I was just pointing out that directv can be regional too if they want.

#2040 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 08:28 PM

Someone else said directv is different than cable companies who provide it because cable companies are regional and satellite is national. .

Yeah Exactly.
Comcast in Pa, is not the same as Comcast in say California.
Why? Because I don't want to pay for your services, when they aren't even for my area.

Directv doesn't have that luxury.
They are a national provider.
The channel lineups Equipment and prices are the same.
Only difference is now Directv is charging RSN fees.
They don't have enough capacity to spotbeam Rsns to local DMA's
Cable can do this. Why? Because they are regional. They have local offices and substations all over the place.
Directv and Dish cant and dont.
NY RSNS for example covers 4 states, that already atleast 3 spotbeams that would require 4 channels per spot. That is a waste of space.

That's why the RSNS are National, and to cost down, RSN fees are applied.
Well that's atleast what the claim is.

Edited by damondlt, 26 May 2015 - 08:31 PM.

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#2041 OFFLINE   BlackDynamite

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 08:51 PM

Yeah Exactly.
Comcast in Pa, is not the same as Comcast in say California.
Why? Because I don't want to pay for your services, when they aren't even for my area.

Directv doesn't have that luxury.
They are a national provider.
The channel lineups Equipment and prices are the same.
Only difference is now Directv is charging RSN fees.
They don't have enough capacity to spotbeam Rsns to local DMA's
Cable can do this. Why? Because they are regional. They have local offices and substations all over the place.
Directv and Dish cant and dont.
NY RSNS for example covers 4 states, that already atleast 3 spotbeams that would require 4 channels per spot. That is a waste of space.

That's why the RSNS are National, and to cost down, RSN fees are applied.
Well that's atleast what the claim is.

Directv absolutely does have that "luxury" if they want. They just choose to do business another way.

As I said, directv can set their receivers to block or allow any channels they want. They can do this based on location if they want. Just because it's not in a spot beam doesn't mean it's impossible to offer that channel regionally.

#2042 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:35 AM

Directv absolutely does have that "luxury" if they want. They just choose to do business another way.

As I said, directv can set their receivers to block or allow any channels they want. They can do this based on location if they want. Just because it's not in a spot beam doesn't mean it's impossible to offer that channel regionally.

If every time regional sports channels gets Conus coverage that's "x" number of Conus slots that can't be used for other channels.

Let’s assume there are three fictional regional college sports networks with and average of five channels each that would fifteen Conus slots that are being used for regional delivery. You could easily wind up with a couple dozen Conus slots taken up by regional college sports channels.

When does that become untenable? Where is the point that you impact the national “cable”, major league sports, and PPV channels? Where do you draw the line?

I would seem to me that having to carry every regional college sports network and their associated channels on Conus feeds can become unsustainable and, I’m guessing, one of several reasons why DirecTV has drawn a line in the sand on this one.

Mike


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#2043 OFFLINE   fleckrj

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 07:04 AM

No, I'm saying they should provide the whole thing to everyone. Someone else said directv is different than cable companies who provide it because cable companies are regional and satellite is national. I was just pointing out that directv can be regional too if they want.

 

 

Directv absolutely does have that "luxury" if they want. They just choose to do business another way.

As I said, directv can set their receivers to block or allow any channels they want. They can do this based on location if they want. Just because it's not in a spot beam doesn't mean it's impossible to offer that channel regionally.

 

 

If every time regional sports channels gets Conus coverage that's "x" number of Conus slots that can't be used for other channels.

Let’s assume there are three fictional regional college sports networks with and average of five channels each that would fifteen Conus slots that are being used for regional delivery. You could easily wind up with a couple dozen Conus slots taken up by regional college sports channels.

When does that become untenable? Where is the point that you impact the national “cable”, major league sports, and PPV channels? Where do you draw the line?

I would seem to me that having to carry every regional college sports network and their associated channels on Conus feeds can become unsustainable and, I’m guessing, one of several reasons why DirecTV has drawn a line in the sand on this one.

Mike

You all are forgetting that there is a big distinction between what DirecTV can do technically, and what the content owner will allow DirecTV to do. The distinction between cable outlets and DirecTV is more about how contracts are written than it is about the ability of the provider to distribute regionally versus nationally.  Contracts between content owners and cable companies are broken down by small regions. Contracts with DirecTV are national.  Again, the technology exists to allow for regional broadcasting and regional contracts could be possible, but the content owners are not willing to go that route.  If the Pac-12 would allow DirecTV to offer the network only in the Pac-12 territory, nationally a la cart, or nationally in the sports pack, the network (at least the national feed with game time alternates for live games for now, and perhaps the regional feeds, too, once D14 and D15 are fully functional) would be on DirecTV.  The problem is that the Pac-12 wants the same coverage that the Big 10 network has, and that arrangement does not make business sense for DirecTV.

 

Viewership of Pac-12 games that are offered on national outlets do not draw nearly the audiences that the Big 10 or SEC games do, so DirecTV is justified in claiming that outside of the Pac-12 footprint, the Pac-12 network is not worth as much as the Big 10 or SEC networks are.  The standoff has nothing to do about technology and what DirecTV has the ability to do.  The standoff is all about how much money the Pac-12 wants versus how much the network is worth to DirecTV.

 

.



#2044 OFFLINE   Coachbulldog

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 08:56 AM

Stop with that nonsense. Anyone who signed prior to the channel being launched is well beyond that agreement. The network has been up for almost three years (three this August). The exodus has already happened. Any continued exodus beyond August 2011 would be diminishing until it was a trickle by August 2013. Any drops now are lost in the churn noise.

 

I have no evidence other than observation, but I agree with what you're saying. If there ever was an exodus from Directv to other providers because of PAC12 Network it is long over.

 

I live in a Pac12 market and am still able to see Pac12 football games on television each Saturday during the fall. Some of the biggest Pac12 football games in 2014 were on ESPN, FOX, or ABC including the PAC12 championship game. Same for basketball. ESPN, FOX, CBS channels carried a lot of Pac12 games including the conference tournament championship game. I understand there is the super fan that wants to see every game of every sport their school plays but those fans are not enough to make Directv give in to the Pac12's demands. Like it or not, despite the tremendous success Pac12 athletic teams have enjoyed, the conference does not have the same national appeal as the Big 10 or SEC and their network isn't worth as much to Directv. 



#2045 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 11:17 AM

Let’s assume there are three fictional regional college sports networks with and average of five channels each that would fifteen Conus slots that are being used for regional delivery. You could easily wind up with a couple dozen Conus slots taken up by regional college sports channels.

 

I have no idea what the negotiating position of the Pac 12 is for these regional channels, but you're absolutely right that it sets a terrible precedent if Directv carries these. Your example would not remain fictional for long, with the BTN contract coming up in a couple years they'd have ample time to add seven regional channels to cover two teams a piece or heck why not 14 channels because you know that in state rivals like Michigan/MSU and Purdue/Indiana don't wish to be placed together, and OSU wouldn't want to share with anyone :)

 

The ACC would be watching as they develop their channel, and the SEC would use ESPN's muscle to force these extra channels on carriers. Maybe even before the contract is up, if they add something else providers may want to carry in the meantime (like say ESPN4K) The Big 12 is already there, I think all its teams have their own channels though aside from Longhorn Network few hear about them. Mediacom produces and carries the Cyclone Network (Iowa State) for example. I get it here in Iowa, but pretty sure subscribers in Alabama don't get it even in a sports pack :)


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#2046 OFFLINE   Yakuman

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 07:31 PM

Do most people outside the Pacific time zone even know Pac 12 exists?

 

On my honor, I had never heard of Big 10 until it showed up in my channel lineup.


Edited by Yakuman, 27 May 2015 - 07:32 PM.

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#2047 OFFLINE   Eksynyt

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 09:27 PM

Yes plenty of my friends in the eastern and central time zones switched from DirecTV because they refuse to pick up the Pac 12 Network. Yet they never hesitate to have the SEC Network and B1G Network.

This channel will never be on DirecTV so this discussion is pretty pointless. If you want the best college sports experience, then switch to Dish

#2048 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 09:30 PM

Yes plenty of my friends in the eastern and central time zones switched from DirecTV because they refuse to pick up the Pac 12 Network. Yet they never hesitate to have the SEC Network and B1G Network.

This channel will never be on DirecTV so this discussion is pretty pointless. If you want the best college sports experience, then switch to Dish


My college sports experience is excellent, and I'll never have dish...
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#2049 OFFLINE   Billzebub

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:20 AM

Yes plenty of my friends in the eastern and central time zones switched from DirecTV because they refuse to pick up the Pac 12 Network. Yet they never hesitate to have the SEC Network and B1G Network.
This channel will never be on DirecTV so this discussion is pretty pointless. If you want the best college sports experience, then switch to Dish

Shouldn't there be a disclaimer when ads like the above are inserted into discussions?

#2050 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:39 AM

Do most people outside the Pacific time zone even know Pac 12 exists?

On my honor, I had never heard of Big 10 until it showed up in my channel lineup.

Really you never heard of one of the highest ranked college sports divisions?
With the largest fanbase?
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Edited by damondlt, 28 May 2015 - 04:51 AM.

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Blue Ridge Communticatons

Digital HD Basic Plus, Cinemax,Showtime/TMC,Starz /Encore
Tivo T6 (Roamio Plus) Master Bedroom,Samsung 5300 40 Inch

Tivo Mini Livingroom Vizio M602i-B3 60 Inch

Tivo Mini Bedroom 2  LG 26LE5300 26 Inch
Tivo Mini Bedroom 3  Element ELEFW328 32 Inch
Cisco HD ,Bedroom office 4  Magnavox 32 inch

Arris Touchstone DG1660

Dream 60 Mbps down 3 Mbps up.

 





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