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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Trying to sort out rain fade issues - transponder map anywhere?


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36 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   carillon

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:21 PM

I'd like to know if there is a spreadsheet or webpage that will tell me which satellite and transponder individual channels are coming from. Having a moderate rain right now and some HD channels are unavailable while others are. Just curious to know so I could check the signal strength on individual transponders that provide HD channels that are out.

 

Thanks!


SlimLine-5 SWM-8-LNB Dish (HD Service / WHDVR)
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C31 Genie RVU Client / Dynex HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA
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#2 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:40 PM

With some digging, this should be it: http://www.dbstalk.c...ew-data-732013/


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A.K.A VOS

#3 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:07 PM

But note that there is more to this that the "quality" signal that the receivers shows.  You can have "excellent" numbers on transponders, but your "signal power" and/or SNR  could be very low.  Without the appropriate tools, it is very hard to troubleshot this issue, if you have any.


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#4 OFFLINE   carillon

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:39 AM

With some digging, this should be it: http://www.dbstalk.c...ew-data-732013/

Much obliged... I searched for a good 15 minutes and couldn't find anything. Ironically, one of my searches brought up the thread you referenced but I would swear the attachments were not there to download. Thanks again!


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C31 Genie RVU Client / Dynex HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA
HR24-500 / Panasonic TC-P54S2 / HDMI / Networked - DECA
H24-700 / Toshiba SDTV / Networked - DECA

#5 OFFLINE   carillon

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:43 AM

But note that there is more to this that the "quality" signal that the receivers shows.  You can have "excellent" numbers on transponders, but your "signal power" and/or SNR  could be very low.  Without the appropriate tools, it is very hard to troubleshot this issue, if you have any.

I'm sure you are right, I don't have any tools or knowledge so looking at the transponder strength is all I have to work with. I posted my numbers in a separate thread and was told they were excellent.

 

http://www.dbstalk.c...-numbers/page-2


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HR34-700 Genie / Sharp 52LE700UN HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA
C31 Genie RVU Client / Dynex HDTV / HDMI / Networked - DECA
HR24-500 / Panasonic TC-P54S2 / HDMI / Networked - DECA
H24-700 / Toshiba SDTV / Networked - DECA

#6 ONLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:29 AM

After you click on the link supplied by veryoldschool, , scroll to the bottom of the first post and look for this spread sheet: TPN_MAP_Domestic_130703.xlsx  

Open it up and all the information you need should be there.

 

Edit: actually I guess I copied the link directly to the spreadsheet. Just click on it and it should open.


Edited by jimmie57, 07 July 2013 - 09:30 AM.

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#7 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:38 AM

But note that there is more to this that the "quality" signal that the receivers shows.  You can have "excellent" numbers on transponders, but your "signal power" and/or SNR  could be very low.  Without the appropriate tools, it is very hard to troubleshot this issue, if you have any.

Here we see someone with missed knowledge what has been posted at the forums.

 

The signal's numbers _are_ SNR, find my post where I take time and plot the curve: SS vs SNR [they named it internally as CNR].


Edited by P Smith, 07 July 2013 - 09:41 AM.


#8 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:51 AM

If only a 'moderate' rain causes loss of signal, and this isn't a case where the rain is moderate where you are but very heavy nearby (you can get rain fade even without a single drop ever hitting your house if big storm is in the right place just south of you) you probably don't have optimal signal during clear conditions. That's where you want to start with checking things. You should be in the upper 80s to upper 90s for all transponders on 99c, 103ca and 103cb. If you aren't, you either need your dish to be better aligned or have some other issue that needs to be rectified in your system.

 

If you have good numbers when clear, but you see very low numbers or 0s during rain, either the rain isn't as moderate as you think or water is getting in something it shouldn't - you can test the latter by hitting your dish and all external satellite cabling/switches/splitters/etc with a quick shot from a hose to get it wet.

 

Rain fade will be mostly an all or nothing proposition for the HD channels. If you are completely losing some HD channels, but other HD channels are coming in perfectly, there is probably something else wrong with your system. Bad cable, bad LNB, that sort of thing.


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#9 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:41 AM

Here we see someone with missed knowledge what has been posted at the forums.

 

The signal's numbers _are_ SNR, find my post where I take time and plot the curve: SS vs SNR [they named it internally as CNR].

Found here in the attached thumbnail for those interested;

 

http://www.dbstalk.c...dish/?p=3142133


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#10 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 04:14 PM

Here we see someone with missed knowledge what has been posted at the forums.

 

The signal's numbers _are_ SNR, find my post where I take time and plot the curve: SS vs SNR [they named it internally as CNR].

Mr. "fixanything" I guess you missed the signal power part.  You can have 90s on transponders but you can be sitting at the "floor" of the signal power any signal fluctuation  will give FF/pix


Here’s to the crazy ones.
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The round pegs in the square holes.

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They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


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#11 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 04:36 PM

 You can have 90s on transponders but you can be sitting at the "floor" of the signal power any signal fluctuation  will give FF/pix

It's hard for me to see how this would be true.

 

"If" the receiver is showing 90s, it's hard to see how there would be low RF power.

 

"If" the 90s were at the dish [meter], "then" there could be too much loss to a receiver, but the CNR should also show a drop, which means on a "good day" it won't show 90s on the receiver.

 

With a SWiM, there is almost nothing you can do after the dish to improve/help rainfade.

 

"Testing" has shown rainfade to be in/at the LNA on the input of the LNB.

The LNB outputs so much noise, that you can have -30 dBm [or more] "RF power" with NO input signal [and no CNR].


A.K.A VOS

#12 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:05 PM

It's hard for me to see how this would be true.

 

"If" the receiver is showing 90s, it's hard to see how there would be low RF power.

 

 

When I did some "testing" with AIM, I lowered the signal power by adding splitters, I was geting the same numbers (transponders) when I did the test with -47dB then when I was getting -57dB.  But we know that -57dB is almost at the signal "floor" of DirecTV recommended -60dB (safe) or -65dB (all gone)


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#13 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 05:45 PM

When I did some "testing" with AIM, I lowered the signal power by adding splitters, I was geting the same numbers (transponders) when I did the test with -47dB then when I was getting -57dB.  But we know that -57dB is almost at the signal "floor" of DirecTV recommended -60dB (safe) or -65dB (all gone)

"Yeah" I thought you were going down that road.

Getting the same numbers with -47 & -57 dBm sort of shows what I was saying.

"With a SWiM", the AGC will keep the level constant, so "the fade" is in the LNA.

 

I've been able to get good numbers at around -70 dBm, but this will vary between receivers [chip performance] and it isn't the way a good system is setup.

 

"The thing is" it doesn't matter if the receiver input level is -60 dBm or -30 dBm for rainfade.

I wish it was, but the LNBs output so much noise that "Rainfade" is all in the LNA [first stage of the LNB] as that is where the CNR is set.  


A.K.A VOS

#14 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:04 PM

Mr. "fixanything" I guess you missed the signal power part.  You can have 90s on transponders but you can be sitting at the "floor" of the signal power any signal fluctuation  will give FF/pix

I didn't, but I see you did try get out of the mess what was in your post :D

 

You cannot get high CNR/SNR if your RF level is low, the noise floor will not allow to do that.

Just say you posted being in rush. ;) We will understand that. Making additional noise will not change law of physics.



#15 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 06:49 PM

"Yeah" I thought you were going down that road.

Getting the same numbers with -47 & -57 dBm sort of shows what I was saying.

"With a SWiM", the AGC will keep the level constant, so "the fade" is in the LNA.

 

I've been able to get good numbers at around -70 dBm, but this will vary between receivers [chip performance] and it isn't the way a good system is setup.

 

"The thing is" it doesn't matter if the receiver input level is -60 dBm or -30 dBm for rainfade.

I wish it was, but the LNBs output so much noise that "Rainfade" is all in the LNA [first stage of the LNB] as that is where the CNR is set.  

I fully understand what you are saying VOS, the point I was trying to make however was that a receiver with low RF signal (too any splitters, too long cable run, etc) is more likely to "fade" [(first than the one with higher RF signal) (even if both receivers have the same transponders numbers)]   due "atmospheric" conditions, be it rain, extreme heat... as these can cause signal attenuation. 


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#16 ONLINE   P Smith

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:14 PM

You still don't get it or still try to make it up ...

 

CNR/SNR (e.g. signal level on screen) cannot be high (in 90s) if RF is low; because of existing  noise floor (very high in case of SWiM signal) and close relation between all the number.



#17 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:45 PM

I fully understand what you are saying VOS, the point I was trying to make however was that a receiver with low RF signal (too any splitters, too long cable run, etc) is more likely to "fade" [(first than the one with higher RF signal) (even if both receivers have the same transponders numbers)]   due "atmospheric" conditions, be it rain, extreme heat... as these can cause signal attenuation. 

"If you say within the loss range", this isn't a problem.

 

Now I can mockup a setup that would be like what you're saying.

Step 1: exceed the recommended loss from a LNB to the SWiM [8 or 16]

Step 2: have a very long run to a receiver.

 

"Good weather" will have the SWiM AGC compensate for the "excessive" LNB to SWiM loss.

As the signals weaken, the longer run can drop below min due to the AGC running out of range, while a receiver on a shorter run may not.

 

With a SWiMLNB you can't, because the "weak link" is the loss between the LNB & SWiM.

 

The LNB to SWiM loss really needs to be addressed when you feed more than one SWiM or have to locate the SWiM farther from the dish than the 45' recommended.


A.K.A VOS

#18 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:56 PM

CNR/SNR (e.g. signal level on screen) cannot be high (in 90s) if RF is low; because of existing  noise floor (very high in case of SWiM signal) and close relation between all the number.

While the SWiM does look to add some noise, the LNB is also very noisy.

 

I'd say Peds is looking at a poor setup like I posted above.

 

In "Good Weather" the receiver with a very long run [high loss] has a good CNR, but as the signal drops, while the CNR doesn't, the input level drops below min for the receiver to pickup the CNR, because the SWiM's AGC in limiting.

 

"Rainfade" is still at/in the LNB, but the losses between the LNB & SWiM & receiver all need to be within range.

 

"Roughly" 5 dB between LNB & SWiM and 30 dB between SWiM and receiver. If within these there isn't anything more that can be done.


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#19 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 08:49 PM

 

 

The LNB to SWiM loss really needs to be addressed when you feed more than one SWiM or have to locate the SWiM farther from the dish than the 45' recommended.

Now that is something I was not aware of.  so DirecTV recommends that the SWM (8 or 16) not be more than 45 feet "away" from the LNB.  I haven't yet "played" with "numbers" coming from the LNB to the switch.  I just "played" with the "numbers" coming out of the switch.

 

Now that I have your attention let me ask you some Qs (if you dont mind)

 

what is the insertion loss of the SWM16?

Legacy LNBs output about -30dB, does the AGC on the SWM switch compensates for the insertion of the SWM switch?

I have noticed that the "newer" SWM LNBs are outputting around -21dB, has DirecTV increased the output to compensate loss due to splitters, cable runs?


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#20 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:27 PM

Now that I have your attention let me ask you some Qs (if you dont mind)

 

what is the insertion loss of the SWM16?

Legacy LNBs output about -30dB, does the AGC on the SWM switch compensates for the insertion of the SWM switch?

I have noticed that the "newer" SWM LNBs are outputting around -21dB, has DirecTV increased the output to compensate loss due to splitters, cable runs?

A SWiM-16 doesn't really have insertion loss.

It will attenuate any input above -30 dBm and amplify -45 dBm to the -30 dBm output level.

Legacy LNBs "can be" above -20 dBm, so that's why the -15 dBm upper range.

It's been a year or so since I tested, but the "-30 dBm" output was measured at -27.

I haven't [yet] seen -21 dBm output on a SWiM, but it would allow for more loss than before and DirecTV's "cure" most of the time is to add another 2-way off an 8-way so 6 more dB would be a good thing.

 

You should have "full range" as long as the SWiM input is at least -30 dBm.


A.K.A VOS




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