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night owl this 1:30am update sucks


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#41 OFFLINE   locutus

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 06:55 PM

I'll agree that it would be nice if Dish let you pick the time...  I know I have my 922 set for 7am...  but I also think there are a lot of people (my father is one of them) who likes to keep saying "no" to the prompt...  and then eventually something isn't working right because it hasn't done an update in days... and then the complaints start piling up.  So I think that's part of why they designed the Hopper this way and took away the choice of update time.

 

The hopper still lets you say "No" to the update. It just defers to later and asks you again. Even if they don't let you set the time, why would it not see playing a recording off of the DVR as activity and automatically defer until that activity has finished? It seems to do that when the unit is recording, why do I have to put up with the interruption in the middle of playing a recording?



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#42 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 03:30 PM

I have no problem with it asking me... it waits about an hour after saying no doesn't it?  I think that's what I've seen mentioned...  That doesn't seem too bad to me... and it takes seconds to clear those popups that display like that.


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#43 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 03:36 PM

The problem I've noted is if the popup comes while I'm out of the room. If I happen to pause TV at 1:32am to go get a snack I'll miss the 1:35am warning and return to the machine undergoing the reboot. If I'm far behind in my viewing and I'm not watching a recording I lose content - the buffer is gone.

I'm not sure DISH will ever add a "night owl" setting that would move the nightly reboot to 5:35am or some hour of the customer's choosing. If they decide to do so I would support that decision.
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#44 OFFLINE   FarmerBob

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 04:45 PM

Yup, that's complaint number 3 with the family. We're up all night. But the way I see it is that DISH/Echostar is in Colorado. Bars close at 2am, 1:30am is last call, so your box updates at 1:30 and is done by the time you get home from the bar. My bar closes when I stop pouring.

 

Mine fired off at 3:34am this morning, first request. Lately they have been all over the place, but usually 1:23 - 1:37. I have just been letting them do their thing and not have to deal with it later. Also I gage the time it takes to see if possibley I'm getting any new updates. Lately I have been a little more anxious because there are things that need to be fixed, that will calm the family, and I was told were being fixed in the next update. Finger Crossed. I've been doing a lot of that with our HwS.



#45 OFFLINE   3HaloODST

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 07:10 PM

I'll agree that it would be nice if Dish let you pick the time... I know I have my 922 set for 7am... but I also think there are a lot of people (my father is one of them) who likes to keep saying "no" to the prompt... and then eventually something isn't working right because it hasn't done an update in days... and then the complaints start piling up. So I think that's part of why they designed the Hopper this way and took away the choice of update time.


Yeah but all you have to do is set it for a time when nobody's home/awake. This is a long overdue feature that the Hopper has had missing from day one.


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Edited by 3HaloODST, 10 November 2013 - 07:15 PM.

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#46 OFFLINE   locutus

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Posted 10 November 2013 - 09:09 PM

I have no problem with it asking me... it waits about an hour after saying no doesn't it?  I think that's what I've seen mentioned...  That doesn't seem too bad to me... and it takes seconds to clear those popups that display like that.

 

I'm glad that you're okay with it. I'm not. It's an avoidable inconvenience that disrupts my viewing, often at a key moment of the show. Unlike others here, I prefer to schedule technology to work around my schedule rather than the other way around - that IS the purpose of technology, isn't it? To make my life a bit easier? And apparently there's no way to accurately plan around it. I thought I had last night, making sure that my show would end prior to 1:30, but I was wrong. At 1:22am, up pops the shutdown confirmation - right over the last scene of my movie.

 

The simple feature of scheduling was available on the 922. And I still don't see why the unit would not be programmed to identify PLAYING a recorded program as ACTIVITY that would delay a power cycle. After all, the unit doesn't play itself. I'm not going to play a show, then just walk away from it. If I'm playing it, I'm watching it. It's difficult enough that I have to stay up late to watch a show without being interrupted by others. Do I have to be interrupted by my provider as well?



#47 OFFLINE   3HaloODST

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Posted 11 November 2013 - 04:05 PM

What makes it even worse is that sometimes as late as 2:30-3am I've had one of my Hoppers off all day/night and no recordings scheduled for 12-5am yet literally ten minutes after I turn it on it prompts me to check for updates. Then, of course, if I say no I get to say no every hour after that. That is, if I'm not in the bathroom or kitchen or whatever and it reboots... Sent from my iPhone 4S using DBSTalk mobile app

Edited by 3HaloODST, 11 November 2013 - 04:06 PM.

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#48 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:17 AM

Yup, that's complaint number 3 with the family. We're up all night. But the way I see it is that DISH/Echostar is in Colorado. Bars close at 2am, 1:30am is last call, so your box updates at 1:30 and is done by the time you get home from the bar. My bar closes when I stop pouring.

 

Mine fired off at 3:34am this morning, first request. Lately they have been all over the place, but usually 1:23 - 1:37. I have just been letting them do their thing and not have to deal with it later. Also I gage the time it takes to see if possibley I'm getting any new updates. Lately I have been a little more anxious because there are things that need to be fixed, that will calm the family, and I was told were being fixed in the next update. Finger Crossed. I've been doing a lot of that with our HwS.

Sorry to tell you again and again - that time DVR is not UPDATING;

it's just rebooting by prophylactic reason: to cleanup RAM, rebuild system areas/flags, eliminate memory leak created by java code and other corruptions of half-baked-half-tested software in the devices.



#49 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:38 AM

Sorry to tell you again and again - that time DVR is not UPDATING;
it's just rebooting by prophylactic reason: to cleanup RAM, rebuild system areas/flags, eliminate memory leak created by java code and other corruptions of half-baked-half-tested software in the devices.


DISH network uses the time following the reboot for firmware updates (the reboot effectively turns off the receiver to where it can receive the update). The time following the reboot is also used for updating the EPG.
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#50 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 01:02 AM

James, you should know - new FW will reboot a DVR that time when it will finish reprogramming flash memory or set all files for that part of updating.

Updating EPG (as NIT and SDT updating/reloading each four hours) is happening at least four times per 24 hrs. Well known fact - see by yourself logs of changes PID 0x300 (9 days EPG)



#51 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 01:18 AM

James, you should know - new FW will reboot a DVR that time when it will finish reprogramming flash memory or set all files for that part of updating.
Updating EPG (as NIT and SDT updating/reloading each four hours) is happening at least four times per 24 hrs. Well known fact - see by yourself logs of changes PID 0x300 (9 days EPG)


The EPG stream changes every few hours, but that does not mean the receiver is reading it every few hours. DISH receivers only read the 9 day EPG stream when they are not busy doing other things. (The present/next EPG is read constantly and updates the current and next program as the day progresses but the 9 day EPG is not read constantly on a DISH receiver.)

And firmware only begins to download when the receiver is "OFF" (in standby). If the receiver is ON or recording the receiver does not begin the firmware download process. The nightly reboot puts the receiver in a state where both of these updates can take place - receiver "OFF" and idle.
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#52 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 12 November 2013 - 02:55 AM

James,

Nothing changed in methodology of streaming system tables and SW/FW updates; all models of receivers/DVRs working fine up today.

With or without user changeable time for the reboots.

 

Reason(s) for the 1:30am forced reboot ["update"] of H/H2 is not feasibly procuring.



#53 OFFLINE   locutus

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:51 PM

Wow. talk about getting off into the weeds. who cares whether or not it actually updates or just reboots or spews bits all over the floor. The issue is that, whatever it does, it does it in its own good time, and that it disrupts viewing without much regard to whether or not the unit is in use. Being able to schedule the "update"/"reboot"/spew would be the most desirable option, but I would be happy if it would just recognize that playing a recorded show, like recording a show, is not "inactivity", and it should wait until the playback completes before it throws anything up on the screen or begins its own little tidy-up process.


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#54 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:39 AM

Reason(s) for the 1:30am forced reboot ["update"] of H/H2 is not feasibly procuring.


True it is not "feasibly procuring" ... since that might as well be written "nescio quomodo opera."

DISH receivers and DVRs are not designed to run 24/7. They need to go into standby. The scheduled reboots are part of the design to make sure that the receivers go into standby. Many things happen when a receiver reboots and goes into standby, including the updates I have spoken about in this thread.


I agree with those who would like to be able to set their own reboot/update time.

It would be nice if the receiver recognized playback as activity. But what is playback? Watching something live that is delayed by a few minutes could be considered playback ... pausing live TV then leaving the room is one of the situations where the update is most annoying. (If I'm watching a DVRd event I can always restart it after the reboot. Delayed live TV means the buffer is lost.)

If one pauses live TV and walks away the buffer fills and when full playback begins. If anyone is watching they are seeing what came over the satellite an hour ago. My wife does this regularly - she pauses TV, leaves the room to check something on her computer and gets distracted - when the buffer fills the program starts playing.

How does the receiver know if someone is watching a paused screen or a delayed live TV playback? It could be my wife who walked away - perhaps even turning off the TV without turning off the receiver. The receiver is happily playing one hour delayed content to no one.

Perhaps some alogarythm that says "if the receiver has not rebooted since 1:00am local AND there has been no remote control activity in one hour: prompt then reboot." Or (preferably) let the user set the standard reboot time.

Personally I believe it would be easier to let the user pick a time than write the alogrythm.
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#55 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:58 AM

your idea in last phrase  is sharing by many customers as we get the point's discussion a couple times already

 

as to the algo, I would say it wouldn't hard to implement:

- major trigger - standby mode (100% chances to do the night reboot);

- if there is scheduled recording activity going in background - delay reboot and wait for true standby status,

- if OS missed night window - postpone it for next night,

- after X days of skipping the reboot - give a warning to the customer about soon happening reboot as mandatory action and propose to provide by him a time of a day or next night in true standby mode (in case of non-response [say, on vacation] - do force reboot).


Edited by P Smith, 14 November 2013 - 12:59 AM.


#56 OFFLINE   david_jr

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 07:37 AM

A good suggestion, but I suppose no matter how written there would be a scenario that would leave an angry customer.  I think they should just let the user set the time, then if they miss something they only have themselves to blame.



#57 OFFLINE   some guy

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 09:30 AM

psmith is right, the stb looks to updates every few hours (4 I believe) and fills itself in accordingly. The nightly update rebuilds the epg table. I'm sure they will problably eventually address the udpate time but maybe its a little more complicated than everyone thinks. I'm guessing that when you have clients relying on a host then the timing must be perfect in the way they power down and fire back up so that there are no issues when they all come back online.



#58 OFFLINE   3HaloODST

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:46 PM

psmith is right, the stb looks to updates every few hours (4 I believe) and fills itself in accordingly. The nightly update rebuilds the epg table. I'm sure they will problably eventually address the udpate time but maybe its a little more complicated than everyone thinks. I'm guessing that when you have clients relying on a host then the timing must be perfect in the way they power down and fire back up so that there are no issues when they all come back online.


I would believe that having Joeys in the picture might complicate things but the thing is my Joey almost never reboots at the same time as the Hopper it's linked to. If it's such an issue then the linked Hopper/Joey pair should synchronize their update times if they're ever different.


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#59 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:58 PM

- major trigger - standby mode (100% chances to do the night reboot);
- if there is scheduled recording activity going in background - delay reboot and wait for true standby status,


That much is already being done. While recording the receiver will not automatically reboot.
And I have completely missed a reboot on a night when I've told it no every hour or had recordings all night long.
 

- if OS missed night window - postpone it for next night,
- after X days of skipping the reboot - give a warning to the customer about soon happening reboot as mandatory action and propose to provide by him a time of a day or next night in true standby mode (in case of non-response [say, on vacation] - do force reboot).


Once a receiver is targeted for an update it is best that it takes the update. Not only do some of the "bugs" get fixed but there can be new features that DISH is relying on getting deployed. There is no time (unless the receiver crashes or the user forces a reboot) that the receiver will reboot during a recording.

Are you proposing that the receiver stay on for several days straight with no nightly reboot? Rely on the customer always turning off the receiver to put it in standby every night?
 

psmith is right, the stb looks to updates every few hours (4 I believe) and fills itself in accordingly.


Are you talking about EPG updates? If that statement were true for EPG updates new channels that were added during the day they would have their full EPG within four hours. Customers are not getting full EPG for new channels until the next day (after the nightly reboot and EPG download). The data is there ... as anyone who has forced an EPG download can attest ... but the receiver is not looking for a full update 24/7.

Firmware updates only come when in standby.
 

I'm sure they will problably eventually address the udpate time but maybe its a little more complicated than everyone thinks. I'm guessing that when you have clients relying on a host then the timing must be perfect in the way they power down and fire back up so that there are no issues when they all come back online.


I hope they do. And threads like this bring it to DISH's attention that there is an issue with the way the nightly reboot is implemented.

I would believe that having Joeys in the picture might complicate things but the thing is my Joey almost never reboots at the same time as the Hopper it's linked to. If it's such an issue then the linked Hopper/Joey pair should synchronize their update times if they're ever different.


If it were up to me Hopper and Joey would never reboot at the same times. With the network down during the Hopper reboot the Joey's reboot would not finish until the Hopper was back up and running.
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#60 OFFLINE   3HaloODST

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:50 PM

Well -- By "synchronize" I mean have the Joey reboot within 30 minutes or so after the scheduled Hopper reboot.


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