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Pre-wired home with cat 5 issue

networking prewire help cat 5

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55 replies to this topic

#41 ONLINE   armophob

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 11:32 AM

They will for a price. I know because I am "they".

The phone company will not touch any of the wiring from the house to the NID. 



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#42 OFFLINE   zx10guy

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 12:09 PM

I guess it depends on the locality.



#43 OFFLINE   wingrider01

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 06:28 PM

PoE patch panels are the exception and not the norm.  So the statement that patch panels don't have a powered component can be taken to be generally true.  In the various enterprise/campus networks I've been involved with or seen, I've never come across a single PoE patch panel.

 

In addition, going with a PoE patch panel would be significant problem when it comes time to upgrade.  PoE (802.3af) is the norm now, but more and more networks are requiring PoE+(802.3at).  If you had a PoE patch panel, you would be faced with a significant upgrade issue as it would not be a simple rip and replace.  You'll first have to source a PoE+ capable patch panel and then deal with the labor involved in having to repunch down all the LAN drops.  Versus just unplugging the patch cables to a PoE enabled switch and inserting the new PoE+ capable switch.

 

In mid size businesses that do not have deep pockets but need to switch to POE for phones, camera and other devices it is definitely cheaper to use a POE patch panel then forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches.



#44 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 08:58 PM

PoE patch panels are the exception and not the norm. So the statement that patch panels don't have a powered component can be taken to be generally true.

Yup, right on! :righton:


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#45 OFFLINE   zx10guy

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:05 PM

In mid size businesses that do not have deep pockets but need to switch to POE for phones, camera and other devices it is definitely cheaper to use a POE patch panel then forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches.

 

One can get a Netgear ProSafe GS724TP PoE switch for around $500.  I hardly think that's breaking the bank or requires a company with deep pockets.  Contrast that with a Panduit DPOE24U1XG which runs about $1400 and requires a separate 48V DC power feed not included in this price (or the labor to install/punch down the connections.)  And your inference about "forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches" is such a gross exaggeration it's not even funny.  Swapping out 1U closet switches is pretty basic and happens all the time in businesses...small, medium, or large.  If someone considers doing such a change a "forklift" then that person needs to examine another profession. 



#46 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 10:22 PM

you are guys derailing the thread to professional discussion, it has nothing to do with the topic

:backtotop:



#47 OFFLINE   wingrider01

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 12:12 PM

One can get a Netgear ProSafe GS724TP PoE switch for around $500.  I hardly think that's breaking the bank or requires a company with deep pockets.  Contrast that with a Panduit DPOE24U1XG which runs about $1400 and requires a separate 48V DC power feed not included in this price (or the labor to install/punch down the connections.)  And your inference about "forklifting the entire switch infrastructure from the normal switches to POE switches" is such a gross exaggeration it's not even funny.  Swapping out 1U closet switches is pretty basic and happens all the time in businesses...small, medium, or large.  If someone considers doing such a change a "forklift" then that person needs to examine another profession. 

 

I am talking about commercial grade switches, Cisco 3750's, and 47XX's. Looked at the documentation, see very little on specifications, is it a layer 3 switch?



#48 OFFLINE   wingrider01

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 12:19 PM

you are guys derailing the thread to professional discussion, it has nothing to do with the topic

:backtotop:

 

Happen to have a 3750 POE switch in my home wiring closet. the statement "A patch panel has no powered electronics parts no risk of "frying" something or even fire" was made, there are panels that have POE capability and they do have a risk of frying.

 

The builder needs to be involved, evidently they have no idea what a properly wired cat 5 network is for a home the dmark for a pots line should be terminated in the carriers box on the outside and a line extended to the wiring closet. Nothing should be brought out to the Telco's box on the side of the house. If a fault occurs the Telco can claim the additional wires in the box are causing a issue and make it a chargeable service call.



#49 OFFLINE   zx10guy

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:27 PM

I am talking about commercial grade switches, Cisco 3750's, and 47XX's. Looked at the documentation, see very little on specifications, is it a layer 3 switch?

 

While the Netgear switches are not at the same stature as Cisco, it will work in many access layer applications.  Add to the fact, the ProSafe line from Netgear has a "lifetime" (ie 20 years from EOS) warranty, it is hard to ignore the value these switches bring to the table.  There are options other than Cisco and having to get pummeled with SmartNet.  And if Netgear isn't "commercial grade" enough for you there are other alternatives such as Dell PowerConnect where a 5524P goes for $1900 with a lifetime warranty.

 

For edge access, depending on how you design your network, the absence of layer 3 at the edge is not a big deal and often times a preferred design over having a bunch of routing devices on your network.  In the enterprise networks I've designed and deployed, I prefer to have a core switch/router where I have centralized control over how the routing happens at a given location/enclave.  And there are other networks I've seen that are architected the same way.

 

As someone stated, this is getting well off topic and if you want to continue this discussion via PM, be my guest.


Edited by zx10guy, 15 August 2013 - 01:44 PM.


#50 OFFLINE   zx10guy

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 01:43 PM

Happen to have a 3750 POE switch in my home wiring closet. the statement "A patch panel has no powered electronics parts no risk of "frying" something or even fire" was made, there are panels that have POE capability and they do have a risk of frying.

 

The builder needs to be involved, evidently they have no idea what a properly wired cat 5 network is for a home the dmark for a pots line should be terminated in the carriers box on the outside and a line extended to the wiring closet. Nothing should be brought out to the Telco's box on the side of the house. If a fault occurs the Telco can claim the additional wires in the box are causing a issue and make it a chargeable service call.

 

And I (and others) have said to run into a PoE enabled patch panel is rare and the exception.  Especially if you're talking about a home installation where I doubt anyone has a Telco/wiring closet/data center arrangement in their home which provides 48V DC power nor have I seen any structured cabinets which have a PoE patch panel option.  So again, in the home application, the statement patch panels have no electronic parts is valid and I would argue that in a business/enterprise environment the same assumption can be made as per the reasons I've stated, it's rare to see a PoE enabled patch panel.

 

There is nothing wrong with have Category cable all pulled to the NID as long as the intent is for the cables to only be used for POTS line connectivity.  If the homeowner doesn't pay for a specific setup for network setup which consists of a structured wiring cabinet or something similar, the workers pulling the cable will assume the lines will be used only for phone service and hence why all the drops are pulled to the Telco NID.  If there is a deviation from this default configuration, the homeowner needs to be very clear with the builder and the builder needs to be on top of their subcontractor to make the pull the drops to the proper location.  I had this done when I had my house built where I was clear with the builder I wanted the Cat5e drops pulled to a certain location in the basement.  I also had a meeting with the sub to make sure they were aware the cables needed to go to a specific location.

 

The Telco is also not going to care that there are multiple Category cables pulled to the NID.  As the NIDs I've seen have a customer and Telco side.  The sub would pull and typically terminate the cables on the customer side which decouples the Telco from any responsibility for the wiring.



#51 OFFLINE   wingrider01

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 08:34 AM

And I (and others) have said to run into a PoE enabled patch panel is rare and the exception.  Especially if you're talking about a home installation where I doubt anyone has a Telco/wiring closet/data center arrangement in their home which provides 48V DC power nor have I seen any structured cabinets which have a PoE patch panel option.  So again, in the home application, the statement patch panels have no electronic parts is valid and I would argue that in a business/enterprise environment the same assumption can be made as per the reasons I've stated, it's rare to see a PoE enabled patch panel.

 

 

 

there is a 120 volt outlet in the wiring closet with APC 1500 UPS that functions just fine, the POE panel comes with a power injector that inputs 120v outputs 48V DC, have 3 installed in my wiring closet, heck I even have a power injector that converts 120V to 12V DC in there. Just did a switch upgrade of 10 standard panels to 10 POE panels for 1/10 the cost of swapping out the businesses Cisco 37XX layer 3 switches.

 

I disagree with the wiring being terminated in the Dmark panel, that is poor construction and even poorer planning. The Telco here will charge for a service call if anything has been touched on their external box at a residential address which is normally no charge unless they walk into the house.

 

If the builder assumed what you say, then it is the builders fault for not verifying what was on the build plan and requested by the buyer, if it is written down in the specifications the builder needs to make it right



#52 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:31 AM

As yet another Cisco network admin, I'm enjoying this thread. Sounds like PPPI on the builder's part. Of course in my (and any of our) cases we'd be pretty clear about where we'd want the IDF in our homes but to a layman it'd be tough in this situation. The demarc being outside is pretty lousy and I'd be on the horn with the builder to fix that pretty quickly.

And to this:
 

There is no way to make a cable that would use the phone lines as incoming and outgoing data lines is there?

no network cables can't be spliced like that. they must be separate. 

 

Au contraire. Until we had a full rewiring of campus...we would indeed splice out a pair of jacks on a lead, punch 4/5 on a phone block and 12/36 on the network block. It ain't pretty, but when you've only got one drop...and you could make a pretty ugly cable to do the same.


Edited by RasputinAXP, 16 August 2013 - 09:31 AM.

"Belligerent and numerous."

Sometimes I update the Dish Network FAQ

AT200, Hopper & 360 via HDMI to Onkyo 505 to basement 42" Westy, Hopper via Comp-over-Cat5 to living room 42" Vizio with a Roku 3, Joey to Toshiba 32" LCD with a Logitech Revue. You want fries with that? Pull up to the 2nd window.


#53 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 09:43 AM

...
 

 

Au contraire. Until we had a full rewiring of campus...we would indeed splice out a pair of jacks on a lead, punch 4/5 on a phone block and 12/36 on the network block. It ain't pretty, but when you've only got one drop...and you could make a pretty ugly cable to do the same.

I'm hate to come into someone IDF room and find undocumented 'tricks' like that ! Instead of doing your job you forced to spend time for research and scratching your head how the hell I would handle the mess?! :D



#54 OFFLINE   RasputinAXP

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 03:18 PM

I'm hate to come into someone IDF room and find undocumented 'tricks' like that ! Instead of doing your job you forced to spend time for research and scratching your head how the hell I would handle the mess?! :D

 

lol, back in the day it was ALL undocumented tricks. Now that we have a budget we wire the daylights out of a place, but 10-12 years ago when we couldn't convince people to pay for a new drop? Man.

(besides, who had to document it? it was way obvious when we did it... :rolling: )


Edited by RasputinAXP, 16 August 2013 - 03:19 PM.

"Belligerent and numerous."

Sometimes I update the Dish Network FAQ

AT200, Hopper & 360 via HDMI to Onkyo 505 to basement 42" Westy, Hopper via Comp-over-Cat5 to living room 42" Vizio with a Roku 3, Joey to Toshiba 32" LCD with a Logitech Revue. You want fries with that? Pull up to the 2nd window.


#55 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 04:59 PM

Oh, man ! Shame on the guys ! :)



#56 OFFLINE   zx10guy

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Posted 16 August 2013 - 06:16 PM

there is a 120 volt outlet in the wiring closet with APC 1500 UPS that functions just fine, the POE panel comes with a power injector that inputs 120v outputs 48V DC, have 3 installed in my wiring closet, heck I even have a power injector that converts 120V to 12V DC in there. Just did a switch upgrade of 10 standard panels to 10 POE panels for 1/10 the cost of swapping out the businesses Cisco 37XX layer 3 switches.

 

I disagree with the wiring being terminated in the Dmark panel, that is poor construction and even poorer planning. The Telco here will charge for a service call if anything has been touched on their external box at a residential address which is normally no charge unless they walk into the house.

 

If the builder assumed what you say, then it is the builders fault for not verifying what was on the build plan and requested by the buyer, if it is written down in the specifications the builder needs to make it right

There you go with all things network has to revolve around Cisco.  As I said there are other alternatives which more than satisfies most people's requirements (businesses included) without having to pay the Cisco price tag.

 

In your eyes, it's poor construction.  In the eyes of the builder, they don't care unless you're going to pay extra to have it wired in the way we all know is the proper way to do it.  I don't know what Telco you deal with but that's not the case in my area.  And I can't see how they would charge for anything if the home's wiring is on the customer side of the NID.  Have you ever looked at a NID?  On the one installed outside of my home, the NID has two compartments.  One is labeled customer access and the other is labeled Telco access.  The customer side is accessed by using a Philips or flat head screw driver.  The Telco side requires the use of a nut driver to unscrew the bolt.  Even the troubleshooting steps provided by my Telco instructs their customers to do some testing on the customer access side before calling them in for service.

 

If the home buyer didn't put it in writing, the yes, the builder can assume or do what ever it thinks is appropriate.  I suspect if the OP had this in writing, there wouldn't be all this discussion.







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