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HR44/200 wired versus wireless - Better Speeds & MRV?


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#1 OFFLINE   PremierAV

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Posted 24 August 2013 - 11:22 PM

Hi guys,

 

OK, so after getting the HR44 earlier in the week, (along with a SWiM 16 upgrade) I have a question.

 

As for my system, right now it's the HR44/200 (2 clients, 1 live), HR24/100 (just 2 weeks old, replaced under contract), HR24/500 and H23/600 - (with DECA), and a H20/100 all live now. I know the H20 is not MRV compatible and that's fine. (It doesn't even have an Ethernet port. I just keep it in my daughters old room for when she visits.)

 

My question(s) are two fold. And are based solely on what the installer said during the install. If you saw my earlier post about how thrilled he was to be here in the first place (NOT) then you understand why I have questions regarding his methodology.

 

While I'm far from a network administrator, I have always been able to get my home networks to work. I'm not uncomfortable playing around in a router for that matter, and know what a DOS prompt is, and will do things like "run",  "cmd" and "ipconfig" if needed. :righton:

 

With that in mind, I know that connecting via Ethernet is light years faster than wireless. With my DLink for instance, the fastest wireless I can get is 65mbps versus 1Gbps wired, (or worst case 100mbps).

 

This is where I am confused. The installer insisted that with the HR44 that you MUST connect it wirelessly to the router. (Even though the router actually sits ON TOP of the HR44, so cabling isn't a problem.) He said that if I try to connect it via Ethernet that MRV will not work at all. In fact he said that is WHY it has a wireless connection, so that they don't have to use the CCK and connect to it and it will use it's "built in CCK". Quote; "However if you DO try and connect a (Ethernet) wire to it the built in CCK will not work at all. The HR44 itself will be connected to the "internet" but the DECA to MoCA system will not work." (On either end as I understood it).

 

  1. My thing is, why wouldn't it?
  2. Wouldn't it be much faster via Ethernet?
  3. Did DirecTV actually cripple this unit in such a way that you are forced to use a wireless connection?

 

And along with those answers, I suppose I could then get to the point of assigning static IP addresses. This part I mention because after only 24 hours I needed to reboot 1 machine to get it 'playing nice' again. As well as go online and reset other receivers and make sure they were named correctly in the "system". (Had a problem with them being listed wrong in both our iPad, iPhone and Android apps.) Plus I should be able to fix that (dropping problem) with static IP addresses for everything, (like I had to with an IP addressable wireless printer that had a habit of vanishing at the worst possible times). :blackeye:



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#2 OFFLINE   adamson

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:09 AM

Yes ethernet is the better option, it works, your ethernet port on the HR44 is not crippled.

 

Funny thing is the installer connecting it ethernet would have been a slight time saver.


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#3 OFFLINE   adamson

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:37 AM

One thing to remember is once the HR44 or most HR's connects to the internet it latches onto the dns server from the router. If you manually designate the dns server after the fact it reverts back to what it was. The best way to achieve what you want is manually set your network in the "advanced" tab and do not plug in ethernet cable until just before you press "connect".


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#4 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:59 AM

1) Yes the cinema connection will work with a direct ethernet connection to the HR44. Most installers however, are not familiar with this internal bridging capability of the Genie, nor are they officially taught to use it. Many techs. also think to plug in an ethernet cable will disable the Genie's internal DECA resulting in the loss of MRV over coax. This is due to a mistaken association with the H24 or HR24 receivers which do this.

 

2) Not necessarily faster, but more reliable or resistant to dropped connections. The reason for most cinema connections are for access to the internet which rates are usually much lower than even the slowest wireless speeds on an internal LAN anyhow.

 

3) It's not crippled. Techs. are just misinformed or poorly trained on the issue is all. 

 

And static IPs can be a solution for some problematic routers that do not handle DHCP well to the receivers involved in WH service causing issues like random receiver disconnects from the network. YMMV though.        


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#5 OFFLINE   Starrbuck

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 06:45 AM

On the wired you are only going to get close to a gigabit between two computers on the network.  Your biggest limitation is whatever the Internet line to the outside world is (nowhere near 1Gb).


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#6 OFFLINE   Mike Bertelson

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:13 AM

I have my HR44 connected to my router via Ethernet.  I'm not using wireless and I have no issues.  

 

I use On Demand often and have no issues with MRV.

 

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#7 OFFLINE   NR4P

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:50 AM

I'm with Mike on this one.  Use wired.

 

When I first had the HR44, I tried wireless.  GenieGO wasn't perfect with it that way.  I've had my HR44 on wired for weeks and not a hiccup. 

 

IMO, wireless should be the last resort, not the preference.



#8 OFFLINE   PremierAV

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:06 PM

Thanks guys! ;)

 

I really have no idea why the guy was so insistent on going strictly wireless. I questioned him about it directly and he insisted that the HR34 (via the CCK) had to be plugged in, and could run wireless. Yet then the HR44, with its built in wireless DECA... HAS TO BE WIRELESS, full time, all the time. Any attempt to do otherwise would kill your ability to do MRV and IS NOT SUPPORTED from DTV. :bang  

 

Didn't mean to sound like I totally misunderstand wired/wireless speeds through the router, sorry about that. :sleeping:  I know that gigabit would only be for data between the LAN devices, DLNA sharing etc. OTOH, looking at my router page(s) I've seen the throughput at 65mbps consistently, albeit that is the max via wireless (only with excellent signal levels). As the signal level drops, so does the speed (down to less than half the max speed shown). As for speed from my ISP, (Charter) it is promised at 30 but most often tests from 37 to 42. I've seen it as slow as 24 with extreme overhead, VOD doing a full HD download, iPad with the wife, 3 smartphones, and TWO PC's running at once, (one doing the speed test). 

 

In any event the wired connection would be at 100 mbps day in, day out from the router to the HR44, and then passed at that speed throughout the system. Providing I am correct in understanding that the designed speed of MoCA is 100 mbps? It would seem to me this is a much preferred connection, not just for the stability, but especially for the speed. Considering VOD, and apps are bandwidth hogs in the true sense.

 

Is it possible to do it like this? Power down all the receivers (pull the cords). Power down the router. Bring the router back online, then the HR44 and 'connect'. From there do I need to either 'un-marry' and 're-marry' the client or can I leave that one alone? (Just power it back up after the HR44.) And of course after the HR44 (and client) bring all the rest back online. Yes?

 

Sorry for the rambling questions, just want to make sure to not leave anything out. If I need to open another thread for the setup just lmk and we'll go from there as well.

 

Thanks again guys!



#9 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:48 PM

You mean to turn off the HR44's WiFi cinema connection?

 

No just connect the ethernet cable from the HR44 to the router and then restart the HR44. That will disable the -44's internal WiFi.

 

Oh, and DECA uses MoCA ver. 1.1 can actually have somewhere north of 176 mb/s of data throughput depending signal conditions on the coax run between the nodes, number of nodes in involved in the data transfer, etc.. Not that all that is needed for a single MRV session of course (to the contrary its far below that), but just the available capacity of the MoCA 1.1 standard.

 

mocatab1.gif

 

  


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#10 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 04:32 PM

On the wired you are only going to get close to a gigabit between two computers on the network.  Your biggest limitation is whatever the Internet line to the outside world is (nowhere near 1Gb).

Not if you have Google Fiber!  


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#11 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:14 PM

And a quick note the names on the web site that link to you DVR names..... They do not sync by IP address they go by rec Id numbers. I'd leave it all auto myself. I have and it's been fine for years. The only thing that ever caused me any issue was upnp and that my need to be turned off on your router possibly. Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk mobile app

#12 OFFLINE   PremierAV

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:37 PM

You mean to turn off the HR44's WiFi cinema connection?

 

No just connect the ethernet cable from the HR44 to the router and then restart the HR44. That will disable the -44's internal WiFi.

 

Oh, and DECA uses MoCA ver. 1.1 can actually have somewhere north of 176 mb/s of data throughput depending signal conditions on the coax run between the nodes, number of nodes in involved in the data transfer, etc.. Not that all that is needed for a single MRV session of course (to the contrary its far below that), but just the available capacity of the MoCA 1.1 standard.

 

 

Turn off the WiFi connection, yes. To swap that headache for a solid 'wired' connection.

 

I just recently upgraded from the frozen honey speeds of AT&T DSL @ 3 down. Many years of promises for more, even though our neighborhood is all underground utilities (built from 99 to 02) and is actually fiber. Yet due to our rural location we're just too far from the CO so the speed(s) were never going to come. :down:  Weird thing is I was talking to a CS rep from AT&T about the problem (for about 35 minutes we talked about everything from them to Home Theater, to DirecTV) and he mentioned he could "refer me" to my local cable provider. Next thing I knew the installer was knocking on my door and WE NEVER SPOKE TO CHARTER AT ALL! :nono2:  They even opened an investigation on it and found that it was a totally automated installation request. (Likely from the kid with AT&T getting a referral kickback via their website.) Because of the trouble they gave me a killer deal, knocked some more money off my bill, and I'm getting speeds that we've been dreaming of for years now. (You saw where I mentioned we're getting in the upper 30's to low 40's while paying for 30, right. :grin: )

 

Back to the point though. With all our wireless devices now we've been having problems upstairs getting enough signal to keep everything running. I have an office in the basement where the modem and router used to stay but don't really go down there anymore. So with the new install (then also ran, and buried new RG11) I just had the modem put upstairs at the bottom of my equipment rack and stuck the router up top. (Still have to run a switch off the router though to make room for all the AV connected devices.) Even with better signal there are just too many wireless devices to keep the HR44 connected that way.

 

Hey thanks for that MoCa flow sheet. To be totally honest it's been a long time since I even looked at the standard. That's faster than I was thinking for sure.... what with speeds that can run >176 mb/s and even >140 mb/s with SIX nodes running is freaking awesome. Last time I read up on it I was looking at 1.0, hence me thinking it was limited to around 100 mb/s. I was thinking they limited it to 100 mb/s at the Ethernet side back in the beginning?

 

I'm lucky in my DTV system though as I ran dedicated lines for it. (I ran both OTA and all my DTV lines after we bought the house in 04.) Not even shared with OTA signals, although it seems that DECA/MoCA doesn't play well with OTA signals. Then again, I lost most of my ability to get off air several years ago during a DVR swap when they gave me my first HR24 and took the one away that had OTA tuners in it. (DirecTivo for instance.) I begged and pleaded for MONTHS to get off-air tuners and was told that they didn't do that anymore. Finally got two tuners later from another installer during a box swap but they don't match any of the equipment I have now. I have a buddy that went to the trouble to buy a replacement HDD from weaknees for his DirecTivo JUST so that he could still record OTA signals. One call from the box back to DTV to setup the box when it was new and it's been unplugged ever since. Doesn't use it for satellite, just for OTA and it works like a charm.

 

Back to my cables in the house. Of course none are shared with the original cable (TV) lines either which the stupid builder ran to the outside of the freaking house!!! :bang  Which all means MoCA isn't having to shift where it's running from low (on satellite systems) to high (with cable systems) and can just stick to the lower "E band" range. What really amazes me is that the entire thing is handled with fairly decent QoS. Again, it's been a while since I even looked at the MoCA standard, and was nice to go back and read up on it again. BOY would I like to see MoCA 2.0 (and higher) become reality in day-to-day appliances/devices.

 

So basically the HR44 is doing nothing but acting as a built in DECA to MoCA adapter? And all the DTV boxes are pushing data back and forth through the SWM 16. But then the router is having to handle all the (external) data at the HR44, then move it between the boxes? Seems that our once simple satellite boxes are quite complicated these days. :righton: It's a wonder it works at all! :hurah:



#13 OFFLINE   adamson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:19 AM

Your best bet is to get a range extender May I suggest a Netgear WN2000RPT V2 or better. Hardwire your HR44 somehow, its best to place your router near or in your entertainment center. Since you mentioned you prefer static ip's as I do you need to correctly set each units "network" via the "advanced" tab. Keep the units in a sequence 192.168.1.100-192.168.1.104 for example. 255.255.255.0 subnet, then the ip of the gateway. If you prefer a static dns server you would have to disconnect internet completely from your Directv system and reset each receivers networking in the menu. This does not apply to the clients. They would have to be address reserved by mac address of the client. If your clients are a C41-500 they may report the wrong mac address to the network, in that case use the mac address you see in the network connected devices on your router or extender for that matter.

 

As far as your equipment not seeing one another, I would unplug all Directv equipment and power it up in a sequence. Leave the clients for last after checking if all the other units are working together. The power inserter must be on before the power up process of your equipment and plugged into an outlet directly (no power strip). If everything is seeing each other and working proceed to all receivers network setup except the clients and set as I stated above. On the HR44 hardwire it to your router/extender when you have completed the fields in the "network" "advanced"...plug in ethernet cable and "connect".

 

In whole home setting name each location and be sure share playlist is set to yes.


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#14 OFFLINE   adamson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 07:24 AM

Also it would pay to keep your post's a little less complicated, they are all over the map. Get it working and enjoy.


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#15 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:06 AM

 

.... Back to my cables in the house. Of course none are shared with the original cable (TV) lines either which the stupid builder ran to the outside of the freaking house!!! :bang  Which all means MoCA isn't having to shift where it's running from low (on satellite systems) to high (with cable systems) and can just stick to the lower "E band" range.

 

Well it's good the lines are separated (not with the way your cable installer ran them that is) because the MoCA signal can't shift bands and must remain on the "E" one between 475-625 MHz for DIRECTV's implementation of the standard.

 

Which of course puts it into conflict with cable and OTA broadcast signals that use the same range. 

 

.... What really amazes me is that the entire thing is handled with fairly decent QoS. Again, it's been a while since I even looked at the MoCA standard, and was nice to go back and read up on it again. BOY would I like to see MoCA 2.0 (and higher) become reality in day-to-day appliances/devices.

 

Me too ...

 

A very convenient networking standard over coax than dealing with the headaches of running conventional cat 5/6 cable for ethernet.

  

... So basically the HR44 is doing nothing but acting as a built in DECA to MoCA adapter? And all the DTV boxes are pushing data back and forth through the SWM 16. But then the router is having to handle all the (external) data at the HR44, then move it between the boxes? Seems that our once simple satellite boxes are quite complicated these days. :righton: It's a wonder it works at all! :hurah:

 

More like the HR44 has an internal CCK-W, and when the WiFi is turned off the internal CCK-W acts as a standard wired CCK like on it's predecessor, the HR34. Which is a MoCA to ethernet bridge.

 

Also I wouldn't say the receivers actually "push" data back and forth through a SWiM-16, but a MoCA crossover bridge built into the -16 simply "allows" the networking signal to freely pass between its two SWiM-8 halves. 


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#16 OFFLINE   PremierAV

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:59 PM

And a quick note the names on the web site that link to you DVR names..... They do not sync by IP address they go by rec Id numbers. I'd leave it all auto myself. I have and it's been fine for years. The only thing that ever caused me any issue was upnp and that my need to be turned off on your router possibly. Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk mobile app

This was the DirecTV app. It had all the receivers and then some, (but they were all mixed up and included ones that are not even active). Then when you clicked on a receiver it would say that it wasn't communicating (grayed out even), then click the back button, then back to the receiver list and it'd be highlighted and working. WEIRD!

 

It did however finally get all the receivers listed as it's supposed to be.



#17 OFFLINE   PremierAV

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:43 PM

Your best bet is to get a range extender May I suggest a Netgear WN2000RPT V2 or better. Hardwire your HR44 somehow, its best to place your router near or in your entertainment center. Since you mentioned you prefer static ip's as I do you need to correctly set each units "network" via the "advanced" tab. Keep the units in a sequence 192.168.1.100-192.168.1.104 for example. 255.255.255.0 subnet, then the ip of the gateway. If you prefer a static dns server you would have to disconnect internet completely from your Directv system and reset each receivers networking in the menu. This does not apply to the clients. They would have to be address reserved by mac address of the client. If your clients are a C41-500 they may report the wrong mac address to the network, in that case use the mac address you see in the network connected devices on your router or extender for that matter.

 

As far as your equipment not seeing one another, I would unplug all Directv equipment and power it up in a sequence. Leave the clients for last after checking if all the other units are working together. The power inserter must be on before the power up process of your equipment and plugged into an outlet directly (no power strip). If everything is seeing each other and working proceed to all receivers network setup except the clients and set as I stated above. On the HR44 hardwire it to your router/extender when you have completed the fields in the "network" "advanced"...plug in ethernet cable and "connect".

 

In whole home setting name each location and be sure share playlist is set to yes.

 

 

Thanks for the info on resetting the DNS addresses.

 

I too was thinking go back through the receivers/clients and bring them back online in sequence. (Especially as their IP's are now a bit jumbled.)

 

 

So with the new install ... I just had the modem put upstairs at the bottom of my equipment rack and stuck the router up top. (Still have to run a switch off the router though to make room for all the AV connected devices.) Even with better signal there are just too many wireless devices to keep the HR44 connected that way.

 

Range extender, when I moved the router directly to the main equipment rack. Don't think so.

 

Of course I may end up putting another router, DHCP disabled, to act as a bridge for all the equipment in the basement. (Especially as I have cat5 running to the office from the main system upstairs.)

 

Also it would pay to keep your post's a little less complicated, they are all over the map. Get it working and enjoy.

 

 

 

Guess I communicated a bit too much then. :shrug:

Been participating (even mod/admins) in the online world since Windows 3.0 and the old bbs days. I find it's typically easier to put more information out there than less, as it goes a long way towards clearing up confusion. :biggrin:

 

OTOH, it was working via wireless, I just wanted to clarify that wired indeed would work. Considering the "factory trained tech" told me it wouldn't. :roundandr

 

It is working just fine now though via the Ethernet connection.

 

Thanks all! :goodjob:



#18 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 01:47 PM

This was the DirecTV app. It had all the receivers and then some, (but they were all mixed up and included ones that are not even active). Then when you clicked on a receiver it would say that it wasn't communicating (grayed out even), then click the back button, then back to the receiver list and it'd be highlighted and working. WEIRD!

 

It did however finally get all the receivers listed as it's supposed to be.

 

Yes I understand, and what I am trying to explain is, the app pulls those names of the directv.com web site where you name them and goes by rec id number for such.  It doesnt pull the names you create on the dvrs themselves.  Why, who knows, but it doesn't. 



#19 OFFLINE   adamson

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 06:35 PM

My apologies if I offended you, did not mean to. Anywho I hope I was somewhat of a help on what I wrote.

 

cheers


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#20 OFFLINE   PremierAV

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 12:40 PM

My apologies if I offended you, did not mean to. Anywho I hope I was somewhat of a help on what I wrote.

 

cheers

No problem, just hard to get the message across sometimes via forum software. In that, I tend to use a lot of emoticons to help with that. (Although this forum software has a fairly conservative upper limit to them.) :nono:






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