Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

Dish and local channel disputes made me think...


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   scooper

scooper

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,979 posts
  • LocationYoungsville NC
Joined: Apr 22, 2002

Posted 26 September 2013 - 02:10 PM

PSIP that goes beyond 12 hours ? Maybe on some channels - but not on most of them around here. TVGOS was great for the DTV PAL DVR, but when Rovi stopped that - the DVR's went to PSIP only and lost quite a bit of functionality. I suppose it is better than nothing....


You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#27 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 41,690 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:22 PM

But PSIP data includes guide data for at least 24 hours by FCC requirement, and there is nothing can prevent Dish from using that information except bullheadedness.


Retransmission consent. That guide is part of the broadcast of the station and cannot be retransmitted by DISH without consent. DISH could redesign their receivers to use PSIP data direct from a station ... but the receiver would need to tune to each station to download the data - so you would not have data for other channels. (And there is NO FCC requirement that the PSIP guide data be complete or accurate. It could say "Digital Program" 24x7.)
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#28 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 626 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:17 AM

Retransmission consent. That guide is part of the broadcast of the station and cannot be retransmitted by DISH without consent. DISH could redesign their receivers to use PSIP data direct from a station ... but the receiver would need to tune to each station to download the data - so you would not have data for other channels. (And there is NO FCC requirement that the PSIP guide data be complete or accurate. It could say "Digital Program" 24x7.)

 

Okay, okay, okay.  We're beating a dead horse here.  Dish removes data from a station when it no longer carries it, and you state that perhaps this is because their contract with Tribune prohibits guide information with stations they don't carry (though I would find this a rather odd provision and neither of us have the actual contract to check.)  Then I propose that they use the PSIP data for guide data, and you throw retransmission consent at me - say what?  I wasn't talking about Dish retransmitting it, I was talking about programming the receivers to decode the PSIP data and incorporate it into the guide.  Sure, it's a little more work for Dish, but they already have a need to do that work.  I have 2 channels that I receive OTA that Dish does not provide guide data for.  Even when I tune to them, I get a parental warning for no rating and have to input a code (twice!) to watch the channel and even then, it doesn't read the PSIP data to tell me what program I'm watching.  These aren't popular subchannels, and I get that.  But Dish's PSIP ignorance makes those channels difficult for me to enjoy, and incorporating the PSIP guide data would be a very nice feature.  Then the same feature could be used during stalled contract negotiations.



#29 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

Stewart Vernon

    Excellent Adventurer

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 20,559 posts
  • LocationKittrell, NC
Joined: Jan 07, 2005

Posted 27 September 2013 - 12:54 PM

You're continuing to ignore the posts others have made on all the negatives of PSIP data.  There is a reason why almost no one uses PSIP data for EPG info and DVR timers.


-- !rotaredoM mA eM

What I do when I'm not here


#30 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 41,690 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:12 PM

DISH Network satellite receivers DO NOT use PSIP data for the guide. The furthest DISH goes with using PSIP information is to read the station ID (TSID) and compare it against a field in the DISH Network EPG. If the TSID and subchannel match DISH uses that satellite transmitted EPG as the EPG for the over the air received station.

PSIP guide data is unreliable and is difficult to collect. The receiver would need to tune away from whatever OTA channel was being tuned to tune in to the other stations to collect their EPG data. It would only be able to do that when you're not watching a OTA channel. This just adds more unreliability to the unreliability of the PSIP EPG data.

It seems pointless for DISH to redesign their receivers to use unreliable data.

Probably the best place for DISH to collect PSIP data (if they would use it at all) would be at the local point of presence where they receive signals for retransmission. Sending that data to Colorado so it could be added to the satellite fed EPG would be the best way to get it to receivers. But that would be retransmission of a station's signal.

The bottom line though seems to be that if a station does not want to be carried by DISH ... if they withhold their signal from retransmission ... why should DISH go out of their way to make it easier for customers to watch that channel? Let the local station lose viewers to the other local channels.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#31 OFFLINE   scooper

scooper

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,979 posts
  • LocationYoungsville NC
Joined: Apr 22, 2002

Posted 27 September 2013 - 04:41 PM

I'd have to agree with James here - you can either set manual timers on the OTA channels, or get another device that can read the PSIP info / record from that.


You CAN put antennas on your owned and/or controlled property...

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

#32 OFFLINE   Jim5506

Jim5506

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,562 posts
Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted 27 September 2013 - 05:52 PM

Dish drops guide data for stations in dispute for the exact reason that they are in dispute with the station and they do not want to in any way encourage watching that station by any means since they are not allowed to carry it.

 

IMHO Dish could continue to carry that data but it would be at cross purposes with their own interest.


Tuners: Hopper 2000; Hopper w/Sling; 3 Joeys; Samsung SIR-T351; Accurian 6000;2 X HD TiVo; 2 X TiVo Series 2 Stand alone; Panasonic Showstopper 2000
Dish 1000.2 @ 110, 119, 129; dish 500 @ 61.5
Antennas - CM4228; RS U75-R; coathanger; Funke PSP.1922 (stillin the box); paperclip
Displays: Sony VPH D50Q with HD Fury HDMI input; Hitachi 57F59; Sony Bravia LCD;Sanyo 32" LCD; Panasonic 42" plasma
Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

Give me a Finco colinear array and I'll rule the world - HA-HA-HA-HA!

#33 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 626 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 28 September 2013 - 04:28 AM

I'd have to agree with James here - you can either set manual timers on the OTA channels, or get another device that can read the PSIP info / record from that.

 

So because I've set my DVR to block MA programming, I have to input my parent code twice to tune to a channel that shows nothing but classic TV shows (MeTV) or a constant weather loop.  And when I record an OTA program with a manual timer from these channels, how exactly does it show up in the guide?  Wouldn't the PSIP title be superior to a generic message?

 

It's hilarious that we're told the Hopper is the best DVR on the planet, and then you suggest we should go get a different device to record channels from.

 

And yes, it isn't in Dish's best interest to provide the data, but it is in their customers'.  



#34 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 41,690 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 28 September 2013 - 06:10 AM

When in doubt, lock it out. It has been that way forever.

DISH receivers do not read PSIP EPG. Only the satellite provided EPG (if available) is used).

The Hopper as shipped does not even tune OTA. OTA reception is an add on using a dongle. If you want to know where OTA reception ranks on the list of important features on the Hopper there is your answer. I won't call it an afterthought, but one OTA channel per Hopper on a dongle that was not available until months after the Hopper was introduced does not reflect a high priority feature.

Personally I'd like to see a four tuner OTA add on box that ran on the network. Place the box in a central location where an outdoor TV antenna can be connected and stream the tuned channels to the Hopper and Joeys (similar to HD Homerun). But DISH went with a dongle ... and a wiring system where mixing OTA on the satellite cable can cause interference so one has to run a completely separate antenna feed to the dongle than to the receiver.

Not being able to use PSIP EPG (a feature not available even on the better equipped receivers with multiple OTA tuners) isn't the first thing I'd complain about on the Hopper.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#35 OFFLINE   jsk

jsk

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 747 posts
Joined: Dec 26, 2006

Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:14 AM

Why wouldn't it be in Dish's best interest to let the guide data go through during a contract dispute?  It would prevent them from loosing some customers when a station is pulled.  I think it would be in Dish's best interest to assist customers (for a fee) to add an OTA antenna.   Then, they can tell the stations that x% of their customers aren't affected by their station being pulled because they can receive the station (or same affiliate) OTA.


Dish Player DVR 722K with OTA module connected to the Eastern Arc

#36 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 41,690 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 28 September 2013 - 11:43 AM

If people can receive channels OTA without DISH why does DISH need to carry the channels at all?


DISH needs to put themselves in a place where OTA stations need DISH to expand their coverage area and reach their viewers. Assisting people to work around their DISH network service to get OTAs another way is against that goal.

The only way I see DISH helping to get locals other than via satellite is if DISH delivered local stations via IPTV, using the apparent loophole that Aereo uses. DISH can install thousands of antennas in an array have each feed to a personal tuner that is fed to an individual customer via the Internet. If Aereo can do it why not DISH?
  • foghorn2 likes this
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#37 OFFLINE   jsk

jsk

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 747 posts
Joined: Dec 26, 2006

Posted 28 September 2013 - 01:42 PM

I thought Dish looses money on OTA channels with the crazy rates the stations are charging.  Besides, the stations know that if they aren't carried on Dish, many subscribers would switch to Direct or cable and the stations would still reach their viewers.  Unless Dish is able to offer so great of a selection of channels that viewers won't care about their locals, Dish can't make the case that the stations need Dish more than Dish needs the stations.  I don't see that happening.

 

If Dish bought out Aero or licensed their technology, they may be able to drop locals in some markets in favor of Aero.  However, this would only work for people that have an Internet connection, but some of those people might be able to get OTA.  I guess they could use Sat. Internet, if that would work with Aero, but does Dish have the Sat bandwidth to support individual streams of Aero?


Dish Player DVR 722K with OTA module connected to the Eastern Arc

#38 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 626 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:57 AM

Dish should provide the guide data for all OTA channels a customer receives.  I don't care how they do it, what technical hurdles they face, how high on the priority list this is, or whether they are in a contract dispute or not.  Dish's implementation of OTA is poor, and could be improved.



#39 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 41,690 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:17 AM

Sure thing. Just add $20 per month to everyone's bill to pay for the service. Since you don't care how they do it I suppose you would be willing to pay for the technology / software upgrades.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#40 OFFLINE   jsk

jsk

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 747 posts
Joined: Dec 26, 2006

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:00 AM

I don't understand the hurdles that prevent them from providing the guide data for every channel.  They get the TSID of the station OTA and they get the data from Tribune.  Match the two together and you get the guide data, right?  With Maryland Public Television, I only get guide data for WMPT (22.1-.3).  WMPB (67.1-.3) & WFPT (62.1-.3) simulcast WMPT and just show "Digital Service."  Since I receive WMPB more reliably than the other channels, I would rather record off of that channel. 


Dish Player DVR 722K with OTA module connected to the Eastern Arc

#41 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

Stewart Vernon

    Excellent Adventurer

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 20,559 posts
  • LocationKittrell, NC
Joined: Jan 07, 2005

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:01 AM

Dish should provide the guide data for all OTA channels a customer receives.  I don't care how they do it, what technical hurdles they face, how high on the priority list this is, or whether they are in a contract dispute or not.  Dish's implementation of OTA is poor, and could be improved.

Understand that OTA support is not a priority for Dish.  Dish is a satellite company...  They would much rather not support OTA at all... but it fills a gap for them and serves as a carrot... but when push comes to shove, the reality is Dish would be just as happy if you used other means to view OTA.


-- !rotaredoM mA eM

What I do when I'm not here


#42 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

Stewart Vernon

    Excellent Adventurer

  • Topic Starter
  • Moderators
  • 20,559 posts
  • LocationKittrell, NC
Joined: Jan 07, 2005

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:03 AM

I don't understand the hurdles that prevent them from providing the guide data for every channel.  They get the TSID of the station OTA and they get the data from Tribune.  Match the two together and you get the guide data, right?  With Maryland Public Television, I only get guide data for WMPT (22.1-.3).  WMPB (67.1-.3) & WFPT (62.1-.3) simulcast WMPT and just show "Digital Service."  Since I receive WMPB more reliably than the other channels, I would rather record off of that channel. 

It isn't difficult... they do carry some sub-channel EPG info for OTA channels that they don't deliver via satellite.  It just is a very low priority for them... and of all the things we see complaints about, one of the last things is usually OTA EPG data.  I wish they would... though most are in my DMA, a few OTA sub-channels are missing EPG data.  Other markets have it worse than mine.  It's just a matter of it being a low-priority item and one that Dish does not directly make money for their efforts spent in that area... so I understand why it is low priority.


-- !rotaredoM mA eM

What I do when I'm not here


#43 OFFLINE   sregener

sregener

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 626 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2012

Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:38 PM

Anyone know how DirecTV handles the OTA guide data when they're out-of-contract with a broadcast station?



#44 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 41,690 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:41 PM

DISH currently carries 1114 OTA EPG channels. A few of them may be duplicates of carried channels. Overall, DISH carries unique EPG for 5145 channels in the system.

Every subchannel EPG added adds to that count. Every transponder carries a feed of "present/next" EPG ... what is on now and what is next on each of those 5145 channels. Plus there are two and nine day guides that grow in size every time DISH adds a EPG feed.

According to RabbitEars there are 7588 subchannels transmitted. DISH cannot carry EPG for them all. Not without a major redesign to how EPG is managed. (Don't forget, any changes affecting EPG for OTA would need to be compatible with every receiver that uses that feed ... not just the Hoppers, but back to at least the 211 and 622 (released in 2005/2006 IIRC).
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#45 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 41,690 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:05 PM

Anyone know how DirecTV handles the OTA guide data when they're out-of-contract with a broadcast station?


Not dispute related, but both DISH and DirecTV carry EPG for 13 channels and subchannels in my market. The difference being that one of the DirecTV carried subchannels does not exist (they are missing one DISH has). Both carriers are missing EPG for subchannels added over the past year or so.

DirecTV has data for 4004 OTA channels and subchannels in their guide ... this includes channels that they also carry via satellite.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#46 OFFLINE   Jim5506

Jim5506

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,562 posts
Joined: Jun 07, 2004

Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:35 PM

Another hole in the system is that sometimes channels do not provide sub-channel data to the Tribune corporation so it can be used.


Tuners: Hopper 2000; Hopper w/Sling; 3 Joeys; Samsung SIR-T351; Accurian 6000;2 X HD TiVo; 2 X TiVo Series 2 Stand alone; Panasonic Showstopper 2000
Dish 1000.2 @ 110, 119, 129; dish 500 @ 61.5
Antennas - CM4228; RS U75-R; coathanger; Funke PSP.1922 (stillin the box); paperclip
Displays: Sony VPH D50Q with HD Fury HDMI input; Hitachi 57F59; Sony Bravia LCD;Sanyo 32" LCD; Panasonic 42" plasma
Sony 80GB PS3; Toshiba HD-DVD

Give me a Finco colinear array and I'll rule the world - HA-HA-HA-HA!




Protected By... spam firewall...And...