Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

RBR or Menu Reset


  • Please log in to reply
27 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   mridan

mridan

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 549 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2006

Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:07 AM

Reading some posts here and people with problems on their DVR's doing RBR's. Haven't been on this website for a long time, but I recall that it was better to do a menu reset as opposed to a RBR. I know it can't be done if the DVR is locked up. I thought doing a menu reset was easier on the DVR's system than a RBR.



...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   Jason Whiddon

Jason Whiddon

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,262 posts
Joined: Aug 17, 2006

Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:31 AM

I always do a menu reset if I can. One reset on my new HR44 in a week, and it was because teh 44 would recognize all remote button hits except select, so I could not use the menu reset.


65" VT50 / BDP-S6200
X4000 / Outlaw Model 7125
Klipsch RF82 II and RC62 II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Directv HR44-200 / HR24-500

 


#3 OFFLINE   gov

gov

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,091 posts
Joined: Jan 10, 2013

Posted 07 October 2013 - 10:46 AM

Generally,

 

try the menu reset first

 

 

-then-

 

if you're still dead in the water, try the RBR

 

 

 

Still 'effed' up?

 

unplug the beast for a few minutes

 

 

 

after that, unplug over night

 

 

 

then sacrifice a small animal,  and then your firstborn son.

 

 

After that you can call DirecTV

 

 

 

 

:coffee



#4 OFFLINE   mridan

mridan

    Godfather

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 549 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2006

Posted 07 October 2013 - 11:03 AM


 

 

 

after that, unplug over night

 

 

 

then sacrifice a small animal,  and then your firstborn son.

 

 

After that you can call DirecTV

 

 

 

 

:coffee

LMAO!



#5 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

RunnerFL

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,828 posts
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Posted 07 October 2013 - 02:07 PM

You should only RBR if the unit is locked up and unresponsive.  


THIS SPACE FOR RENT

#6 OFFLINE   gov

gov

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,091 posts
Joined: Jan 10, 2013

Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:39 PM

Locked up and unresponsive being subtly different from 'dead in the water'

 

 

!rolling



#7 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,826 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:44 PM

Using the menu to reboot the DVRs is a safer way to reset.  The DVRs use a journaling file system which "should" be able to deal with an abrupt reset, but using the restart menu lets all the open files close and tasks complete.

 

For non-DVRs, I don't think it makes any difference.


Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#8 OFFLINE   gov

gov

    Legend

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,091 posts
Joined: Jan 10, 2013

Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:50 PM

Using the menu to reboot the DVRs is a safer way to reset.  The DVRs use a journaling file system which "should" be able to deal with an abrupt reset, but using the restart menu lets all the open files close and tasks complete.

 

For non-DVRs, I don't think it makes any difference.

 

 

Going serious for a minute, a nearby community has FREQUENT power outages, like weekly winter and spring, and at least 1 or 2 times a month no matter the season.

 

I take it that is ungood in the extreme ?



#9 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

RunnerFL

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,828 posts
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:38 PM

Using the menu to reboot the DVRs is a safer way to reset.  The DVRs use a journaling file system which "should" be able to deal with an abrupt reset, but using the restart menu lets all the open files close and tasks complete.

 

For non-DVRs, I don't think it makes any difference.

 

And regardless of the file system having journaling or not it's not good on the hard drive to just RBR.


THIS SPACE FOR RENT

#10 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

RunnerFL

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,828 posts
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:39 PM

Going serious for a minute, a nearby community has FREQUENT power outages, like weekly winter and spring, and at least 1 or 2 times a month no matter the season.

 

I take it that is ungood in the extreme ?

 

Someone in that community should have their DVRs hooked up to a UPS.


THIS SPACE FOR RENT

#11 OFFLINE   Jason Whiddon

Jason Whiddon

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,262 posts
Joined: Aug 17, 2006

Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:11 PM

I always keep mine on a UPS. Thats other great thing about satellite, it keeps recording off the UPS :)


65" VT50 / BDP-S6200
X4000 / Outlaw Model 7125
Klipsch RF82 II and RC62 II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Directv HR44-200 / HR24-500

 


#12 OFFLINE   Laxguy

Laxguy

    Fortuna! Fameux des Halles

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 12,197 posts
  • LocationWinters, California
Joined: Dec 02, 2010

Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:19 PM

Reading some posts here and people with problems on their DVR's doing RBR's. Haven't been on this website for a long time, but I recall that it was better to do a menu reset as opposed to a RBR. I know it can't be done if the DVR is locked up. I thought doing a menu reset was easier on the DVR's system than a RBR.

You are correct. It's safer to do a menu reset, but millions of customers do nothing but RBRs and are still living. 


"Laxguy" means a guy who loves lacrosse.

#13 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 10,677 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:07 PM

You are correct. It's safer to do a menu reset, but millions of customers do nothing but RBRs and are still living. 

:wave:


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#14 OFFLINE   joed32

joed32

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,648 posts
Joined: Jul 27, 2006

Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:05 AM

You are correct. It's safer to do a menu reset, but millions of customers do nothing but RBRs and are still living. 

Yes they are, in fact Directv's tech site always recommends an RBR and I've never heard of anyone having a problem because of that. 



#15 OFFLINE   o7RAVENS

o7RAVENS

    Mentor

  • Registered
  • 73 posts
  • LocationBaltimore Md.
Joined: Oct 28, 2007

Posted 08 October 2013 - 07:27 AM

That's me I did two RBRs trying to get rid of the( to record this program press the red button tip)

 I didn't know about the menu reset thing

If needed in future I will use menu reset

another good thing coming  from this site, thanks



#16 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Registered
  • 3,568 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:04 PM

Using the menu to reboot the DVRs is a safer way to reset.  The DVRs use a journaling file system which "should" be able to deal with an abrupt reset, but using the restart menu lets all the open files close and tasks complete.

 

For non-DVRs, I don't think it makes any difference.

There are three tasks that might be happening, not counting response to remote button presses, and they are recording, playing back, and indexing.

 

There is no reason to fret about the first two, because we generally know that recording and playback will be interrupted and we don't care at that point. But what about indexing?

 

Indexing is a way of representing metadata with multiple data points as a single datapoint, which makes searching and displaying guide content faster, and it happens automatically most of the time in the background. It is a strategy for doing lots of work ahead of time to make tasks in the moment easier and faster. Think of a building full of books that are unorganized as an unindexed database. If you want a book you have to check each title one by one until you find the one you are looking for. An indexed database is analogous to a library card catalog system, where the librarian has done the work ahead of time so that all you have to do is access an alphabetized list, and that will direct you to the book you want quickly. This is why indexing exists.

 

 Indexing is a low-level task meaning that if the DVR gets busy with something important, such as changing the channel or starting a recording, it may defer indexing for the moment. If you interrupt indexing (which a GUI reset does not do but a RBR does do, and rudely) some minor indexing data does not get written to the HDD. But after reboot the DVR picks right up where it left off, reindexes that data, and moves on, journaled or not,

 

This means that the difference between interrupting indexing rudely (RBR) and courteously waiting until the data is written and indexing can pause at a logical break point (using a menu reset), is insignificantly minimal.

 

And regardless of the file system having journaling or not it's not good on the hard drive to just RBR.

It would be nice if you could explain why. I can explain why not, which is that when power drops to a HDD the actuator spring pulls the actuator back to a neutral position safely, which is also what happens when you stop R/W on the HDD while invoking a menu restart. There is no physical danger of any kind presented to a HDD when RBR is used or when pulling the power plug. As for the data, there is very little danger there as well. The worst that can happen is that the data about to be written is sprayed across the platter as the actuator pulls back, but the amount of data written is infinitesimal because the current needed to write it drops at approximately the very same instant in time.

 

Theoretically, this could corrupt data which means you could induce a minor glitch into a recorded program, of if it writes to where the cataloging area is you could lose a program altogether, or if to where the OS is the drive loses the ability to boot the OS and reformats. But the odds are probably much less than getting struck by lightning while waiting for the reboot.

 

So yes, there is a tiny, tiny risk. And why tempt fate? A menu reset is preferable mostly because most of us are too lazy to walk across the room anyway. But RBR would not have been made available to us if it was at all problematic, and there are times you need it.


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#17 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

RunnerFL

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,828 posts
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

Yes they are, in fact Directv's tech site always recommends an RBR and I've never heard of anyone having a problem because of that. 

 

But we do see people all the time with hard drive issues.  Who knows for sure why the drive died.


THIS SPACE FOR RENT

#18 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

RunnerFL

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 15,828 posts
Joined: Jan 04, 2006

Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:52 PM

It would be nice if you could explain why.

 

Throw your car in park while driving 80mph down the Interstate and see how that works out for you.  That's the same as doing an RBR on a spinning/reading/writing drive.


THIS SPACE FOR RENT

#19 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,826 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 08 October 2013 - 03:58 PM

There are three tasks that might be happening, not counting response to remote button presses, and they are recording, playing back, and indexing.

 

There is no reason to fret about the first two, because we generally know that recording and playback will be interrupted and we don't care at that point. But what about indexing?

 

Indexing is a way of representing metadata with multiple data points as a single datapoint, which makes searching and displaying guide content faster, and it happens automatically most of the time in the background. It is a strategy for doing lots of work ahead of time to make tasks in the moment easier and faster. Think of a building full of books that are unorganized as an unindexed database. If you want a book you have to check each title one by one until you find the one you are looking for. An indexed database is analogous to a library card catalog system, where the librarian has done the work ahead of time so that all you have to do is access an alphabetized list, and that will direct you to the book you want quickly. This is why indexing exists.

 

 Indexing is a low-level task meaning that if the DVR gets busy with something important, such as changing the channel or starting a recording, it may defer indexing for the moment. If you interrupt indexing (which a GUI reset does not do but a RBR does do, and rudely) some minor indexing data does not get written to the HDD. But after reboot the DVR picks right up where it left off, reindexes that data, and moves on, journaled or not,

 

This means that the difference between interrupting indexing rudely (RBR) and courteously waiting until the data is written and indexing can pause at a logical break point (using a menu reset), is insignificantly minimal....

 

True, if the indexing is run the way it is in a commercial database system (i.e. with transaction boundaries and commit phases).  I don't know whether the DirecTV databases are like that or not, but I HAVE had disk corruption with power failures (back before we had a UPS for every DVR) and RBRs over the years.  Journaling is supposed to put the entire drive under a database-like "Begin transaction/Commit transaction" process, but I can tell you from bitter experience that it doesn't work that way all the time.


Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#20 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,826 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 08 October 2013 - 04:09 PM

Throw your car in park while driving 80mph down the Interstate and see how that works out for you.  That's the same as doing an RBR on a spinning/reading/writing drive.

 

Perhaps a bit extreme of an analogy, but correct in spirit.  We are not talking about server class operating systems or hardware here.  When you cut power to a DVR the low voltage supplied to the circuitry and the drive motor does not go to zero instantly.  For some period of time power regulator capacitors will discharge trying to keep the voltage constant, and then it will slope off.  Sure, we're talking milli-seconds of uncertain voltages in different parts of the system, but that is all it takes to trash the hard drive.  Yes, the odds of it happening to at any given reset is extremely tiny, but when you consider the millions of DVRs in use, it is almost certain to happen quite frequently.  So, who wants to be the "1 in a million" that loses their recordings?

 

...And why tempt fate?....

 

Why indeed...that's why we suggest a Menu Reset unless the system is frozen and a RBR is the only option.


Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA





Protected By... spam firewall...And...