Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

Broadcasters take their case against Aereo to the Supreme Court & Win


  • Please log in to reply
195 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Athlon646464

Athlon646464

    Hall Of Fame

  • News Hound
  • 3,045 posts
  • LocationUxbridge, MA
Joined: Feb 23, 2007

Posted 11 October 2013 - 03:14 PM

Broadcasters take their case against Aereo to the Supreme Court 
 
Fox may have been making an empty threat when it said it would go the paid TV route, if Aereo continued to stream its content online. But, that doesn't mean the broadcasters were just going to stomp their feet and let the start up carry on with it's plans to expand its streaming and cloud DVR offerings. 
 
Today, a group that includes not only Fox, but ABC, NBC, Telemundo, Univision, PBS and CBS petitioned the Supreme Court to hear their case.
 
aereochenbot.jpg

1 HR34-700, 1 C31-700, 1 C41W-100, 1 WVBR0-01, 1 HR24-500

Original install on Apr. 20, 2008 - C41W & WVB self installed on Dec. 27, 2014 - HR34 & C31 installed on Aug. 24, 2013 - HR24 installed on July 23, 2010

Press any key to continue, or any other key to cancel.


...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#2 OFFLINE   comizzou573

comizzou573

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 282 posts
Joined: Aug 06, 2007

Posted 12 October 2013 - 04:00 AM

I will definitely switch to this company from dish once they become big enough : )



#3 OFFLINE   Mike_TV

Mike_TV

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 157 posts
Joined: Jan 17, 2006

Posted 12 October 2013 - 05:34 AM

I will definitely switch to this company from dish once they become big enough : )

At $8 a month and the first month free, I think it's a no-brainer to try out and play with for a month or two.  Just waiting for Chicago to come online and I'm there.



#4 OFFLINE   nmetro

nmetro

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 717 posts
Joined: Jul 11, 2006

Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:42 AM

Sometimes coporate greed ends up being poetic justice. The broadcasters are suing because they air informercials, fluffy news, 20 minutes of comeercials per hour, and something that resembles programming, as a "public performance". That their broadcasts are copyrighted. While the content is; their signals are not. Even though, the US government, i.e. US citizens, own the frequencies which they used for these so called "public performamnces". The Supreme Court may acually rule in the favor of Aereo, because the broadcastsers use publicly owned frequencies. This may open the "can of worms" regarding charging cable and satellite companies fees for retranmission of signals. In other words, the brodcasters coudl see this blow up in their greedy corpoarte boardrooms.  The winners will be consumers who do not have to put up with ab naseum blackouts each time a retransmission consent agreement is being negotiated. Yes, broadcastsers could fight back, by streaming all their contents on the internet for a fee, but who will pay to watch commercial laden internet broadcasts for a fee? Especially, when more than 50% of prime time network programming consists of reality shows?



#5 OFFLINE   lparsons21

lparsons21

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 3,611 posts
  • LocationHerrin, IL
Joined: Mar 04, 2006

Posted 12 October 2013 - 11:53 AM

'who will pay to watch commercial laden internet broadcasts for a fee'?

 

HuluPlus subscribers already do that!  :)


Lloyd
Receiver/Provider: Tivo Roamio Plus/Mediacom
HDTV : Mitsi WD-73742 73" 3D DLP
Surround: Denon AVR-2113ci 7.1 Setup

 


#6 OFFLINE   comizzou573

comizzou573

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 282 posts
Joined: Aug 06, 2007

Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:16 PM

I think internet tv is going to be the next big thing, it would be like satellite where you can sub to any local market channel if you live in hawaii and want chicago locals instead you can get it. The only problem once they grow, your going to need really good internet connection that is the down side of it.



#7 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 40,976 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:28 PM

I think internet tv is going to be the next big thing, it would be like satellite where you can sub to any local market channel if you live in hawaii and want chicago locals instead you can get it. The only problem once they grow, your going to need really good internet connection that is the down side of it.

The big IF is if such at scheme is allowed. At the moment Aereo is keeping their service "in market", which matches the law that satellite follows (except for getting permission and paying for the stations carried). Delivering stations out of market ... especially to markets that have a competing station ... is something that Aereo has not tried.

I do not expect Aereo (or any other company) will get permission to deliver network content on out of market stations. At best I can see the local content on any station in the country being available - but not network content and not syndicated content (if the owners push to protect it).

If Aereo manages to get permission to continue to deliver in market channels without following cable or satellite rules I'll be surprised ... and hope it changes satellite delivery rules in the process.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#8 OFFLINE   SeaBeagle

SeaBeagle

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 737 posts
Joined: May 07, 2006

Posted 12 October 2013 - 07:51 PM

Aereo is weird. If you do not have a credit card billing address that Aero likes Aereo will not let you subscribe. Great way to start a new company. It seems like more and more companies are like this.

These seem to me to be companies set to as a tax write off for someone.

#9 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 17,088 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:28 PM

Probably one way how they confirm you live in the market that you are getting service in. Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

#10 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 13,973 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:22 AM

Aereo is weird. If you do not have a credit card billing address that Aero likes Aereo will not let you subscribe. Great way to start a new company. It seems like more and more companies are like this.

These seem to me to be companies set to as a tax write off for someone.

perhaps because they dont provide service in that market....


Sent from my iPad using DBSTalk
Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#11 OFFLINE   Gloria_Chavez

Gloria_Chavez

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 464 posts
Joined: Aug 11, 2008

Posted 13 October 2013 - 10:37 AM

The OTA TV broadcasters are also going after the Cablevision cloud DVR decision, "suggesting" that the case was wrongly decided, and that the Supreme Court erred when it refused to hear the arguments in 2009.


Since 1995 the average cable bill has increased 122%, while TV consumption per household just 13%.

http://www.multichan...1_Per_Month.php

http://blog.nielsen....-all-time-high/

#12 OFFLINE   jsk

jsk

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 744 posts
Joined: Dec 26, 2006

Posted 13 October 2013 - 11:58 AM

If the broadcasters were to win this fight, would it mean that I cannot stream signals from my OTA module via Sling?


Dish Player DVR 722K with OTA module connected to the Eastern Arc

#13 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 17,088 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 13 October 2013 - 12:39 PM

No not the same thing at all. They are basically claiming that aero as a company is redistributing their signals and getting paid to do it. Not personal use at all.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

#14 OFFLINE   comizzou573

comizzou573

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 282 posts
Joined: Aug 06, 2007

Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:00 PM

The big IF is if such at scheme is allowed. At the moment Aereo is keeping their service "in market", which matches the law that satellite follows (except for getting permission and paying for the stations carried). Delivering stations out of market ... especially to markets that have a competing station ... is something that Aereo has not tried.

I do not expect Aereo (or any other company) will get permission to deliver network content on out of market stations. At best I can see the local content on any station in the country being available - but not network content and not syndicated content (if the owners push to protect it).

If Aereo manages to get permission to continue to deliver in market channels without following cable or satellite rules I'll be surprised ... and hope it changes satellite delivery rules in the process.

 

you can watch any news station you want over the internet, i dont see why it would be problem



#15 OFFLINE   Gloria_Chavez

Gloria_Chavez

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 464 posts
Joined: Aug 11, 2008

Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:01 PM

No not the same thing at all. They are basically claiming that aero as a company is redistributing their signals and getting paid to do it. Not personal use at all.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

 

Not really.  The Courts that have sided on Aero's behalf have used the Cablevison precedent, when Aero has argued that its technology is not different from Slingbox's.

 

If Aereo loses, so does Slingbox.

 

 

*********************************

http://digitalhhr.co...own-be-looming/

 

The strength of the Cablevision Case’s private versus public performance distinction was recently put to the test, however, when the TV networks sued Aereo in the Southern District of New York for direct and secondary copyright infringement. The only decision rendered in the case thus far concerns the Plaintiffs’ preliminary injunction motion, American Broadcasting Companies, Inc. v. Aereo, Inc., No. 12 Civ. 1540 (AJN), 2012 U.S. Dist LEXIS 96309 (S.D.N.Y. July 11, 2012) (“Aereo Case”), which was specifically limited in scope, dealing only with the Plaintiffs’ claims that Aereo was directly liable for publicly performing the Plaintiffs’ copyrighted works. At the outset, the court acknowledged that the core issue in deciding the motion was “the applicability of the Second Circuit’s decision in Cablevision” given the similarity between Aereo’s technology and Cablevision’s RS-DVR. Accordingly, Aereo argued, much like Cablevision, that it effectively rents to its users remote equipment comparable to what these users could install at home, characterizing its system “as merely allowing users to rent a remotely located antenna, DVR and Slingbox-equivalent device, in order to access content they could receive for free and in the same manner merely by installing the same equipment at home.”

       

Edited by Gloria_Chavez, 13 October 2013 - 01:03 PM.

Since 1995 the average cable bill has increased 122%, while TV consumption per household just 13%.

http://www.multichan...1_Per_Month.php

http://blog.nielsen....-all-time-high/

#16 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 17,088 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:03 PM

Just because aero claims they are the same as sling doesn't mean the courts or anyone else agrees at all. It's bad form to even suggest this.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

#17 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 17,088 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:05 PM

you can watch any news station you want over the internet, i dont see why it would be problem


And as I said earlier in another thread news is not at all the same as the rest of tv.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

#18 OFFLINE   Gloria_Chavez

Gloria_Chavez

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 464 posts
Joined: Aug 11, 2008

Posted 13 October 2013 - 01:18 PM

Just because aero claims they are the same as sling doesn't mean the courts or anyone else agrees at all. It's bad form to even suggest this.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

 

Fox disagrees.  Ultimately, SCOTUS will decide.

 

*************

Why Slingbox Is Finally Getting the Aereo Treatment

 

March 8, 2013

 

http://variety.com/2...ect-1200005356/

 

Fox disagrees, and its attorneys argued that “any purported right that Dish believes consumers have to ‘place shift’ live broadcast programming does not apply here because Dish is not a consumer. It is not ‘consumer place-shifting’ when Dish retransmits Fox’s signal over the Internet, in violation of its license agreement, to get more people to subscribe to Dish Network. It is piracy.”

 

......................

 

So what happens if Fox and other broadcasters prevail?

 

Analyst Richard Greenfield of BTIG Research noted in a recent blog post that if Fox wins, “it would mean that Slingboxes are illegal for consumers to use, unless an agreement is reached with content holders (which we doubt would ever happen).” He also noted the irony that many media industry executives are faithful users of Sling: They use it to check their operations around the country.

 

*************


Since 1995 the average cable bill has increased 122%, while TV consumption per household just 13%.

http://www.multichan...1_Per_Month.php

http://blog.nielsen....-all-time-high/

#19 OFFLINE   inkahauts

inkahauts

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 17,088 posts
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Posted 13 October 2013 - 08:15 PM

FOX wants people to pay if they even sneeze. They are idiots. Sling isn't at all the same. It's one login at a time for a box connected at your home. Not a server farm somewhere else that stores all your info. How it's done make a big difference.

FOX might get the idea of sling built in kicked but I doubt it. The fact is they are mad because it's allowing dish to circumvent the contracts DIRECTV and others have to stream the channels on tv everywhere platforms.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

#20 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 40,976 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 13 October 2013 - 09:10 PM

It is not ‘consumer place-shifting’ when Dish retransmits Fox’s signal over the Internet, in violation of its license agreement, to get more people to subscribe to Dish Network. It is piracy.”


Fox has it wrong. DISH is not retransmitting Fox's signal over the Internet. The consumer is retransmitting the signal. The consumer is responsible for their own bandwidth at both ends of the service. DISH is not hosting a farm of streaming equipment at an ISP or other data co-location site (like Aereo is doing). DISH's Slingbox is an individual customer streaming to themselves.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#21 OFFLINE   tonyd79

tonyd79

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 12,881 posts
  • LocationColumbia, MD
Joined: Jul 24, 2006

Posted 14 October 2013 - 02:49 PM

This can get interesting. I never understood how Sling gets around the copyright and local market laws, just that they do.

 

But I am not sure I see the connection that is being made anyway. Sling is about moving content. Aero is a different delivery mechanism of the same content that cable and satellite provide in the same geographic space. From an Aero perspective, it seems that they would fall under the same must-carry or must-pay arrangements for cable and satellite but to drag Sling into it is overstepping. Different issue.


LR: HR34-700, H24-200, Fios DVR, BD350 Blu Ray, Roku Netflix Player, Chromecast, Sony 65w850 TV
BR: HR21-200, Viso 32LX, DB350 Blu Ray
Dish: Slimline, SWM8
Other: genieGo

#22 OFFLINE   KyL416

KyL416

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,574 posts
  • LocationTobyhanna, PA
Joined: Nov 10, 2005

Posted 14 October 2013 - 03:37 PM

Anyone with common sense and a basic knowledge of physics knows they are lying about the one antenna per subscriber thing since they are all working as a bay and one of those "innovative" micro antennas alone cannot receive the entire DTV spectrum from VHF 2 to UHF 52. If it were they would make way more money selling the antennas. Not to mention the wiring involved to devote a tuner and encoder for each subscriber would violate every single NEC code. Also, anyone with a basic packet sniffer could see that the urls are the same for everyone outside of the auth code, just by opening the media cache file on my iOS device I was able to watch multiple channels at the same time. The whole prepping the stream thing is just an artificial delay created by a javascript countdown. The problem is getting a judge to understand all the technical aspects when it comes to broadcasting and the internet.

If Aereo does win, will they have to abide by the other rules that cable and satellite providers have? i.e. EAS alerts (they carry Bloomberg so they can't rely on the local stations to do it), SAP feeds for Descriptive Video as part of the disability act, closed captioning, potential franchise requirements like Public/Educational/Government access, etc. They also have the problem of the low powered stations, for example in NYC there's several low powered stations that have signals that don't get past the 5 boroughs over the air, but they are providing them to the entire market which opens up another can of worms. Of course there's the whole upending the entire must carry/retransmission consent system since you know cable and satellite will cite this as a precedent, as well as the rights issues since in some cases not even the networks have the mobile and PC rights to their programming because of other conflicting deals. i.e. WPVI Philly is the local OTA station for the Eagles cable games, however Watch ABC cannot show these games because of the exclusive deal NFL made with Verizon.

#23 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 40,976 posts
  • LocationMichiana
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 14 October 2013 - 04:16 PM

This can get interesting. I never understood how Sling gets around the copyright and local market laws, just that they do.


Sling provides equipment. The closest they come to providing a service is connecting one's remote device to their own home equipment. They are not providing the programming themselves. They do not host the receivers (and do not, in their TOS, allow others to run Sling hosting farms). What people do with their Sling equipment is a personal choice. Sling promotes their products for legal use (personal use viewing of content from one's own home) and does not promote illegal viewing. Generally speaking, personal use has been upheld.

Aereo provides tuners, storage, hosting and streaming services from their site to their customers. They provide the content. On the plus side they do respect market areas and do their best to only deliver the content within each Aereo market. But without the content that they receive and deliver the would not have a product.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#24 OFFLINE   Mike_TV

Mike_TV

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 157 posts
Joined: Jan 17, 2006

Posted 15 October 2013 - 08:14 AM

Anyone with common sense and a basic knowledge of physics knows they are lying about the one antenna per subscriber thing since they are all working as a bay and one of those "innovative" micro antennas alone cannot receive the entire DTV spectrum from VHF 2 to UHF 52. If it were they would make way more money selling the antennas. Not to mention the wiring involved to devote a tuner and encoder for each subscriber would violate every single NEC code. Also, anyone with a basic packet sniffer could see that the urls are the same for everyone outside of the auth code, just by opening the media cache file on my iOS device I was able to watch multiple channels at the same time. The whole prepping the stream thing is just an artificial delay created by a javascript countdown. The problem is getting a judge to understand all the technical aspects when it comes to broadcasting and the internet.
 

 

This is interesting and I'm sure the broadcasters have inspected the serivce under a microscope, from afar, to build their case against them.  Is there a website that lays out these claims (everyone sees the same stream, the antennas actually don't receive the signal and go one-to-one with a subscriber, etc)?

 

I'm interested in the technical aspects of how the service works or doesn't work.

I'm curious from a technical standpoint on how the service works, or flat out misrepresents how it works.



#25 OFFLINE   KyL416

KyL416

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 2,574 posts
  • LocationTobyhanna, PA
Joined: Nov 10, 2005

Posted 15 October 2013 - 12:35 PM

With software like URLSnooper, Wireshark or a jailbroken iOS device where you can access the media cache file you can see what the URLs are. If you are familiar with streaming servers you can tell how non-unique they are.




Protected By... spam firewall...And...