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AM-21 questions...


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48 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:39 AM

I checked recording on all of my OTA stations.

 

I found the only channel that does this is WOWT's main channel, 6.1. Subchannel 6.2 records just fine.

 

I am really confused.



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#27 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:56 PM

Do you also get that station via satellite? Can you record it that way?


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#28 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 02:55 PM

Yes, we do. But we want to be able to record this channel when it's raining, so we got the AM-21.



#29 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:12 PM

Interesting that you can record it then. That station must be setting the ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor, i.e. the "broadcast flag" for OTA broadcasts. I guess the AM21 recognizes it, but the setting must be lost or ignored for Directv's rebroadcast so you can record it via satellite.

 

It might be set in error, since you wouldn't think it would be left on 24x7, unless the station owner really hates DVRs. You could try emailing a technical/engineering contact for the station and see if they can explain. If it is in error maybe they'll turn it off for you. Or maybe the flag isn't trying to prevent you from recording, but is set to a value the AM21 doesn't expect, and it is an AM21 issue. If so, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Directv to fix it :)


Edited by slice1900, 26 October 2013 - 04:13 PM.

SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#30 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 04:40 PM

Yes, our channel 6 (WOWT) is carried by DTV, as are all of the locals (except subchannels).

 

Not knowing what control TV stations may have over that, it seems strange that I can record their subchannel just fine.

 

I didn't buy the AM-21 from DTV, not not sure what help they would even give me. I don't think it's a problem with the AM-21, since I can record all the other channels and subchannels in Omaha.

 

That is why it is so puzzling.

 

I wish there was another Omaha DTV subscriber using the AM-21 that is on this forum.



#31 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 07:14 PM

The broadcast flag can be set per stream or per program, so if it really is a broadcast flag issue, it's not necessarily odd that you can record their subchannels but not the main channel.

 

A DirecTV DVR should be able to record even protected content. How is your DVR connected to your TV? HDMI or component? And, are there any devices in the chain, such as HDMI switches or audio receivers?



#32 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 07:34 PM

The problem may be the fact the AM21 connects to the receiver via USB. There are really weird and consumer unfriendly rules around content protection, and it may be that protected content can't be sent unencrypted over a USB link, as that would theoretically allow it to be copied.


Edited by slice1900, 26 October 2013 - 07:34 PM.

SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#33 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 08:10 PM

The problem may be the fact the AM21 connects to the receiver via USB. There are really weird and consumer unfriendly rules around content protection, and it may be that protected content can't be sent unencrypted over a USB link, as that would theoretically allow it to be copied.

 

I highly doubt that is the case. DirecTV wouldn't build a device that was not fully ATSC compliant. Making the USB interface compliant with whatever is necessary to make it compliant with the broadcast flag would be trivial. 



#34 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 01:40 AM

I highly doubt that is the case. DirecTV wouldn't build a device that was not fully ATSC compliant. Making the USB interface compliant with whatever is necessary to make it compliant with the broadcast flag would be trivial. 

 

 

I'm not suggesting it is not compliant, I am suggesting that it is and that's why this is happening. Because it sends the digital signal to the receiver via USB, the broadcast flag may disallow that. Since ATSC signals are broadcast unencrypted, therefore one would assume the AM21 sends them to the receiver unencrypted. Though I guess that doesn't explain why it works when he's watching live, and is only a problem when he's recording.

 

The root of the problem is the local station setting the flag. I'm not aware of any local stations doing so, or if they do certainly not doing so all the time. It may well be unintentional on their part.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#35 OFFLINE   nola56

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:54 AM

I live in Slidell, LA, about 40 miles from the New Orleans TV transmitters, and about the same distance from the Biloxi/Gulfport, MS TV transmitters.  Using two antennas, one pointing to New Orleans and one pointed to Biloxi, I was able to receive over 30 OTA channels, and all of them showed up in the DTV guide, including a "local" LPTV station directed to the New Orleans hotels and restaurants.

All  but 26-2 that is NOT in the guide or available on the AM-21 since DTV hasn't updated their database.



#36 OFFLINE   coconut13

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 08:11 AM

All  but 26-2 that is NOT in the guide or available on the AM-21 since DTV hasn't updated their database.

You can easily get 26.2 ANTENNA TV New Orleans by using a secondary zip. You would have the wrong guide info, but you can pick-up the channel.



#37 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 10:04 AM

I'm not suggesting it is not compliant, I am suggesting that it is and that's why this is happening. Because it sends the digital signal to the receiver via USB, the broadcast flag may disallow that. Since ATSC signals are broadcast unencrypted, therefore one would assume the AM21 sends them to the receiver unencrypted. Though I guess that doesn't explain why it works when he's watching live, and is only a problem when he's recording.

 

The root of the problem is the local station setting the flag. I'm not aware of any local stations doing so, or if they do certainly not doing so all the time. It may well be unintentional on their part.

 

My point is, if it worked in the way you suggest, it would be non-compliant. I highly doubt this is what is going on. It's more likely to be a misconfiguration at the broadcaster with the broadcast flag.

 

It could also be a problem with their encoder, and watching live the AM21 can handle it, but recorded there are some errors in the bitstream it can't handle. We really need to hear from someone else in his DMA who has an AM21 to see if they have the same problem. It could also be some weird problem with his DVR or AM21.



#38 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 03:49 PM

I agree, it would be nice if there was someone in my DMA to confirm this problem.

 

I have the satellite receiver going through my Yamaha receiver vis HDMI and then HDMI to my Panny.



#39 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:38 PM

I don't think it is an HDMI handshake/HDCP issue, because you'd have trouble watching live TV and you'd have problems on other channels like HBO as well.



#40 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 03:56 PM

I received this email from the Chief Engineer at WOWT this morning:

 

"The  AM-21 is made to work with the DirectTV DVR receiver.     WOWT transmits the same as all the local channels.   I would call DirectTV and see if they have any ideas.   Please keep me informed as your progress."
 

I think I will hook the AM-21 to my upstairs DTV DVR and see what the results are.

 

Mike



#41 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 04:50 PM

What happens when you record the sat version of the channel?

Have you tried resetting the over the air and rebooting the DVR then adding over the air back again?

#42 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 28 October 2013 - 05:25 PM

I hooked it up to another DTV DVR, and it is doing the same thing!  It's hard to believe it could be a defective AM-21, but maybe it is. I have emailed the company that sold it to me. Maybe they will swap it out for another, as they really aren't that much.

 

M



#43 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:06 AM

Yeah you really need another person in your market to try this. Very strange.

#44 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:18 AM

What happens when you record the sat version of the channel?

Have you tried resetting the over the air and rebooting the DVR then adding over the air back again?

 

the satellite delivered version of the channel is going to be literally nothing like, at an MPEG level, as the over the air version. DirecTV's encoders would have cleaned up anything that might be breaking it.


Edited by JosephB, 29 October 2013 - 09:29 AM.


#45 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 09:49 AM

Like was said;

 

Tough to pin down without another in market sub. there with an AM21 to compare. 


DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#46 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 02:27 PM

the satellite delivered version of the channel is going to be literally nothing like, at an MPEG level, as the over the air version. DirecTV's encoders would have cleaned up anything that might be breaking it.


Doesn't hurt to test it.

#47 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:08 PM

I heard from Solid Signal, the company that sold me the AM-21. They had this to say:

 

" That is referred to as an IKOD (instant keep-or-delete) and it means that nothing useful was recorded. Since it is happening on every receiver I doubt that it is the hard drive. More likely, DIRECTV’s frequency map for that channel is wrong.

If the customer tells us which market that is, I can bring it to the attention of the right people. If he really wants to be proactive in helping to solve the problem and his receiver is connected to the internet I can instruct him on how to send a report to DIRECTV’s engineering department that will help pinpoint things."

 

I replied that it was on the internet, and to let me know what I need to do.

 

Maybe making some progress!



#48 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:22 PM

I heard from Solid Signal, the company that sold me the AM-21. They had this to say:

 

" That is referred to as an IKOD (instant keep-or-delete) and it means that nothing useful was recorded. Since it is happening on every receiver I doubt that it is the hard drive. More likely, DIRECTV’s frequency map for that channel is wrong.

If the customer tells us which market that is, I can bring it to the attention of the right people. If he really wants to be proactive in helping to solve the problem and his receiver is connected to the internet I can instruct him on how to send a report to DIRECTV’s engineering department that will help pinpoint things."

 

I replied that it was on the internet, and to let me know what I need to do.

 

Maybe making some progress!

 

It's great that you found someone who has an inside line to DirecTV engineering and could possibly help. However, I don't know if they're barking up the right tree. Did you mention to them that you can watch live programming on that channel? If the tuner were trying to hit the wrong frequency, you wouldn't get any signal or be able to watch it live at all.



#49 OFFLINE   mroot

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Posted 31 October 2013 - 09:59 AM

Yes, that was my thought initially too, but not knowing exactly how everything ties together, I'm guessing they have a better idea of it. They do know that I can watch live programming just fine. At least they are familiar with the "IKOD" which I am experiencing.

 

I'm thinking of doing the antenna setup from scratch using a zip code from the Lincoln Nebraska area and see if that makes any difference.






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