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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Uninterrupted Power Supply UPS


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71 replies to this topic

#61 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 02:39 PM

My UPC if you remove the batteries it does not work

Of course not, it has circuitry to detect if a battery is present. That doesn't at all mean that the batteries are supplying the power to the connected device.

Look at the output of the UPS while connected to the mains (with a scope). It will be a a perfect sine wave. (because the power is coming from the line, not the switching supply/battery combo). Pull the UPS AC supply and look again.

 

That tells you what is really happening.


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...hasan, N0AN

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#62 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:21 AM

I can tell you from personal experience that the Honda inverter series work just fine. I would be careful with some of the cheap stuff such as what Harbor Freight sells

 

Don't forget the crap that Costco sells.  I just swapped my Costco generator for some plumbing work.  When I bought the generator I had to call the manufacturer to get the rest of the parts.  Damn thing never worked right.  Two years old and it still looked new.  I think the carb was shot.  

 

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#63 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:24 AM

Of course not, it has circuitry to detect if a battery is present. That doesn't at all mean that the batteries are supplying the power to the connected device.

Look at the output of the UPS while connected to the mains (with a scope). It will be a a perfect sine wave. (because the power is coming from the line, not the switching supply/battery combo). Pull the UPS AC supply and look again.

 

That tells you what is really happening.

 

Kinda hard to win an argument with him, no?

 

Rich



#64 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:20 PM

Kinda hard to win an argument with him, no?

 

Rich

I'm not worried about winning/losing, just providing accurate information. There is so much good help provided on this forum, and peds has done a lot of it, but none of us has a stranglehold on perfection. We all make mistakes. It's much better if we just learn from them and move on, otherwise our credibility disappears. 

 

I would also note that I have not had a problem with any of my APC units (all of which are non-sine wave) powering any of my devices, which include, but are not limited to:

 

HR20 series DVRs

HR21 series DVRs

H21 receiver only

HR24 series DVRs

HR44 series DVR

 

Samsung 60 LED/LCD

Assorted Video Recorders

Onkyo SR-605 HT Amp/Rx

Assorted BluRay Players

 

I don't seem to possess any electronics that can't handle the sine wave approximation that the assorted consumer grade UPSs  put out...at least the ones I have, which are mostly APC. I have 3 of them in my 7 foot rack for the Media room, and another 4 in the basement for the computer/ham radio setup. There are 3 more throughout the house for other things I want to protect. If something could benefit from a surge protector, I give it a UPS, which has surge protection built in to it, and auto-switches away from the line, should it become "dirty" or non-existent.

 

I also have a fairly extensive single point ground system which all the stuff is connected to, including a few thousand feet of buried radial wire. 

 

All that, done the right way, and there is still no certainty that a direct or near direct hit won't fry things. Been there, done that, $13,000 later, redid it all, as the hit came in the telephone line/network connection and fried every network connected device in the house, plus all phone stuff. Obviously, I had not sufficiently protected the phone/network lines. Nothing was damaged from the AC side of things, not one item. If it had a wired connection to my network, it was gone. Wireless stuff was fine.

 

Grounding for lightning mitigation is a very complex and demanding issue. Dish grounding discussions on these forums are more often than not, simplistic and error ridden. (when it comes to lightning mitigation which is an RF problem, not a DC/Safety ground issue). I digress....yet again...sorry. :angel:


Edited by hasan, 16 April 2014 - 03:20 PM.

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#65 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:46 PM

Switching power supplies, like most electronic devices use these days, are almost universally fine with square wave power, so in a discussion of hooking up Directv equipment and DVRs it doesn't matter what kind of UPS you use. The classes of devices that have problems with it (power tool chargers, tube amps, for example) are few and generally not the sort of thing people will try to power off a UPS anyway - though they can be a problem if they use a whole house generator that outputs square wave or sine wave approximation.

 

For a computer, if you're really picky about errors (meaning you have a PC that uses ECC RAM, if you don't know what that is, then by definition you aren't picky) an online UPS is desirable because double conversion removes the noise that power filters in lower end UPSes/power conditioners can't remove. You wouldn't think that can cause errors, but it does - I've tracked down ECC errors on servers to poor quality power, which was fixed when I had the server guys replace the cheap UPS with an online model.


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#66 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:20 PM

Switching power supplies, like most electronic devices use these days, are almost universally fine with square wave power, so in a discussion of hooking up Directv equipment and DVRs it doesn't matter what kind of UPS you use. The classes of devices that have problems with it (power tool chargers, tube amps, for example) are few and generally not the sort of thing people will try to power off a UPS anyway - though they can be a problem if they use a whole house generator that outputs square wave or sine wave approximation.

 

For a computer, if you're really picky about errors (meaning you have a PC that uses ECC RAM, if you don't know what that is, then by definition you aren't picky) an online UPS is desirable because double conversion removes the noise that power filters in lower end UPSes/power conditioners can't remove. You wouldn't think that can cause errors, but it does - I've tracked down ECC errors on servers to poor quality power, which was fixed when I had the server guys replace the cheap UPS with an online model.

Interesting observation. Switching supplies are inherently noisy and attempts to save money by not filtering adequately can cause all sorts of problems (especially RF). It doesn't help that the devices plugged into the UPSs take a few design liberties when it comes to input filtering themselves. Over the years it has become more and more problematic.


...hasan, N0AN

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#67 OFFLINE   jimmie57

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:19 AM

Thank goodness for UPSs. We had a small storm pass thru with some cloud to cloud lightning. Then one struck the ground.

Power was out for about 4 seconds but the UPS kept things running smoothly. A few minutes later the power flicked for about 4 seconds again. Now the sun is out and the power has went out 2 more times for about 4 seconds each time. I suspect that they are working on it somewhere after that one ground strike.

Really glad I installed one on each of my 3 TV systems in the house.

I tried to get my son to let me hook up his 4 computers and the modem and router to one but he said no. I do not have a clue why he resists things like this sometimes. Each time the power went out it reset the modem and router and I had to wait for it all to reboot before working on the web again.

I use the APG 550G models.


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#68 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:52 AM

Interesting observation. Switching supplies are inherently noisy and attempts to save money by not filtering adequately can cause all sorts of problems (especially RF). It doesn't help that the devices plugged into the UPSs take a few design liberties when it comes to input filtering themselves. Over the years it has become more and more problematic.

 

If I remember correctly, the early surge protectors that we could buy for our own use were useless after they got hit with a surge.  Is that right?  And if it is, how does the surge protector on the UPS devices work?  Do they somehow reset themselves or do you have to buy a whole new unit?

 

Rich



#69 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 11:57 AM

perhaps bigger capacity MOV used, they will just dissipate the joules ... or will fry if you got direct hit


Edited by P Smith, 17 April 2014 - 01:33 PM.


#70 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 01:12 PM

If I remember correctly, the early surge protectors that we could buy for our own use were useless after they got hit with a surge.  Is that right?  And if it is, how does the surge protector on the UPS devices work?  Do they somehow reset themselves or do you have to buy a whole new unit?

 

Rich

P. Smith has it right (larger MOVs), not gas discharge based. No need to replace them unless they are out and out fried.


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#71 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 18 April 2014 - 11:01 AM

Thank you, gentleman.

 

Rich



#72 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 11:34 PM

If I remember correctly, the early surge protectors that we could buy for our own use were useless after they got hit with a surge.

Metal Oxide Varistors (MOVs) were mostly sacrificial.

Do they somehow reset themselves or do you have to buy a whole new unit?

In theory, they just go to battery. There are some other crowbar devices that can take more than one hit as well as the much better gas discharge tubes that can go again and again.

Wikipedia has an awesome article on the various TVSS technologies:

http://en.wikipedia....Surge_protector

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