Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

What xponders/sats does guide info arrive on?


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Registered
  • 3,532 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 20 October 2013 - 12:51 PM

I got a message that I had not received guide info for over an hour. Checking readings, all really looks pretty good. I am on a SL5 LNBF. This may be related to possible switching issues that I have been suspecting. I've had a few blank recordings also.

 

Do we know what transponders the guide info arrives on? Is there a list somewhere that tells us what services are on what transponders, including spots?

 

TIA


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   dpeters11

dpeters11

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 12,688 posts
  • LocationCincinnati
Joined: May 30, 2007

Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:21 PM

Here is the spreadsheet with the map of transponders. I'm not sure how the guide transponders are handled, I know the primary one for the 5 LMB is on 119W.

 

http://www.dbstalk.c...fresh-10162013/



#3 OFFLINE   texasbrit

texasbrit

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,074 posts
Joined: Aug 09, 2006

Posted 20 October 2013 - 02:49 PM

This problem nearly always means the line of sight to the 119 satellite is blocked for some reason. When you are tuned to a channel from the 99/101 satellites the guide comes from 101. When you are tuned to a channel on 103/119 the guide data comes from 119.

What are your 119 signals (all transponders)?



#4 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 3,532 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 20 October 2013 - 04:41 PM

I've got clear line of sight, second story, no trees at all, nearest building of same (actually a little lower) height is 75' away. 119 levels are actually a little higher now than in this attached screen shot.

Attached Thumbnails

  • RF levels 008.jpg

It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#5 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 3,532 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 20 October 2013 - 04:45 PM

When you are tuned to a channel from the 99/101 satellites the guide comes from 101. When you are tuned to a channel on 103/119 the guide data comes from 119.

 

If you have a SL3 does 103 info come from somewhere else other than 119?


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#6 OFFLINE   DB Stalker

DB Stalker

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 131 posts
  • LocationTooele, UT
Joined: Aug 21, 2013

Posted 20 October 2013 - 04:58 PM

If you have a SL3 does 103 info come from somewhere else other than 119?

if you have the SL3 LNB then you get your guide data from the 101


#)

#)


#7 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,955 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 20 October 2013 - 05:17 PM

Briefly for the "Fast PIDs" anyhow, used for rapid APG updates.

 

101 SD guide data comes from Tp. 2 on D9S at 101

 

Guide data for the HD birds at 99 and 103 comes from Tp. 31 at 101

 

Guide data for 95W (World Direct service) comes from transponder 1 on G3C

 

Guide data for 110 is only for Puerto Rico is from Tp. 8 (actually Tp, 28) on D5

 

Guide data for 119 Ku is from Tp. 26 on D7S at 119.

 

For guide data of the HD local channels, the particular transponder used varies by market.


DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#8 OFFLINE   texasbrit

texasbrit

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,074 posts
Joined: Aug 09, 2006

Posted 20 October 2013 - 07:00 PM

Briefly for the "Fast PIDs" anyhow, used for rapid APG updates.

 

101 SD guide data comes from Tp. 2 on D9S at 101

 

Guide data for the HD birds at 99 and 103 comes from Tp. 31 at 101

 

Guide data for 95W (World Direct service) comes from transponder 1 on G3C

 

Guide data for 110 is only for Puerto Rico is from Tp. 8 (actually Tp, 28) on D5

 

Guide data for 119 Ku is from Tp. 26 on D7S at 119.

 

For guide data of the HD local channels, the particular transponder used varies by market.

 

 

Not quite. Guide data for 103 Ka also comes from 119 and if you are tuned to a 103 channel with a non-SWM 5LNB that's the one it uses.



#9 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 10,183 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 20 October 2013 - 08:52 PM

Not quite. Guide data for 103 Ka also comes from 119 and if you are tuned to a 103 channel with a non-SWM 5LNB that's the one it uses.

So then for a SWM 5LNB, the guide data comes from the 101?  


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#10 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,955 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:16 PM

Not quite. Guide data for 103 Ka also comes from 119 and if you are tuned to a 103 channel with a non-SWM 5LNB that's the one it uses.

Yes, but by means of "Slow PIDs" which are distributed randomly over many transponders I understand.  

 

From the information I have there is no dedicated transponder on 119 for sending APG guide data for HD channels as "Fast PIDs."


DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#11 OFFLINE   HoTat2

HoTat2

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,955 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles, CA.
Joined: Nov 16, 2005

Posted 20 October 2013 - 11:17 PM

So then for a SWM 5LNB, the guide data comes from the 101?  

Yep ...


DIRECTV sub. since Sep. of '95


#12 OFFLINE   texasbrit

texasbrit

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,074 posts
Joined: Aug 09, 2006

Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:05 AM

So then for a SWM 5LNB, the guide data comes from the 101?  

 

Yes, for all SWM systems, including those where a non-SWM LNB is at the dish and then connected by cables to an SWM8/16 multiswitch. The guide data is carried on a separate SWM channel between the SWM switch (either the one at the dish or the SWM8/16) and always comes from 101.



#13 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 10,183 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:25 AM

Yes, for all SWM systems, including those where a non-SWM LNB is at the dish and then connected by cables to an SWM8/16 multiswitch. The guide data is carried on a separate SWM channel between the SWM switch (either the one at the dish or the SWM8/16) and always comes from 101.

so why the redundancy, redundancy....

why not have the guide data from the 101 regardless of LNB


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#14 OFFLINE   Diana C

Diana C

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,799 posts
  • LocationNew Jersey
Joined: Mar 30, 2007

Posted 21 October 2013 - 09:05 AM

so why the redundancy, redundancy....

why not have the guide data from the 101 regardless of LNB


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Because if you are using a non-SWM stacked multiswitch infrastructure there are times where no 101 transponders are visible to the receiver.  For example, if you are watching a HD channel on 103, then the receiver can only see 110/119 in the 950 to 1450 MHz IF band.

 

post-451904-0-30596000-1382369082.png

Attached Thumbnails

  • DirecTV Stack Plan.png

Dish Network Customer from 9/1998-11/2001
DirecTV Customer 10/2001 - 7/2014

FiOS TV/TiVo Customer since 6/2014
Moderator, DBSDish.com 1999-2000
Co-Founder and Administrator, DBSForums.com 2000-2006

Current setup:
DirecTV: HR34-700 (1TB) / HR24-100 (1TB) / HR24-500 (1TB) / HR21-700 (320GB) / HR21-100 (1TB) / 2 H25s / C41-500 / SWiM16 / Nomad / CCK

FiOS: 2 Tivo Roamio Pros (6 TB total) / 5 Tivo Minis attached via MOCA


#15 OFFLINE   texasbrit

texasbrit

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,074 posts
Joined: Aug 09, 2006

Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:14 PM

Following on DianaC' s post;

 

The stacking plan for DirecTV is:

99 and 101 signals are together

103/110/119 signals are together

 

You can see this on the input connectors for any of the multiswitches.

That means that in a conventional non-SWM system, when the receiver is tuned to a 103 transponder (for example) it only gets signals from 103/110/119, it does not see 101 at all. So it is getting the guide data from 119.

 

When DirecTv introduced the 3LNB non-SWM LNB, there was a design problem to be solved. How to get the guide data onto the cable to the receiver when it was tuned to a 103 transponder. There's no 119 signal, so no guide. So the 3LNB LNB is different electrically from the 5LNB. It takes the 101 guide data, and puts it with the 103 signals so the receiver thinks the data is coming from 119, even though it is not. That way the receivers get the guide data even when they don't see 101.

And that's also the reason why telling a receiver connected to a non-SWM 5LNB that it is connected to a 3LNB does not solve a 119 line of sight issue. The 5LNB electronics don't put the 101 guide with the 103 signals, so when tuned to a 103 channel the receiver gets no guide if 119 is not there.

 

SWM made life easier. Because the guide isn't carried "with" any particular satellite's signals, it is carried on a separate channel, the SWM electronics can take the 101 data and use it all the time.



#16 OFFLINE   twaller

twaller

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 184 posts
Joined: Dec 17, 2005

Posted 21 October 2013 - 02:39 PM

Wow, I learn something new every day. I have an SL5, and a few years ago I had a LOS issue with the 119, and had guide data problems. I got rid of a tree and now have no issues with 119. In June I upgraded to a SWM 16. So now what you are saying is that even if I have LOS issues with the 119, the guide data will come from 101 regardless of the channel the receiver is tuned to.


Sent from my iPhone using DBSTalk

#17 OFFLINE   peds48

peds48

    🙈🙉🙊📡

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 10,183 posts
  • LocationLong Island, NY
Joined: Jan 10, 2008

Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:17 PM

Following on DianaC' s post;

 

The stacking plan for DirecTV is:

99 and 101 signals are together

103/110/119 signals are together

 

 

one more Q, does the same applies for a 18x20 LNB?


Here’s to the crazy ones.
The misfits. The rebels.
The the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.

The ones who see things different.
They’re not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status quo.


Think Differently 

#18 OFFLINE   TomCat

TomCat

    Broadcast Engineer

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 3,532 posts
Joined: Aug 31, 2002

Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:24 PM

This is all great stuff.

 

I found a major clue to my failed recordings/missing guide data issue (you may notice another thread where I suspect the switch in the LNBF and am replacing it with SWM just on general principles).

 

Non-SWM at the moment, I have four cables coming from the SL5. I plan to reuse one of them. There are F-81 barrels in all just behind the dish, as the cables were there for a nearby Phase III dish replaced in 2007(?). I opened and inspected all four, and found some minor discoloration, which I burnished and then reconnected all four. As I was checking signal on sats on all four DVRs (which I figured I might want to do in case the signal interrupt made one go stupid) I found this anomaly on one DVR:

 

On 103s and only on one tuner, all transponders were missing. Not on other DVRs, which rules out the LNB part of the feedhorn, but not the switch part. I changed the sat setup to some weird sat, rebooted, and then changed it back to SL5, hoping that would blow out a corrupted config, and restore a good one. Just after the reboot, the transponders were no longer missing.

 

OK, that means it could be the DVR, or it still could be the switch. I already ordered the SWM SL3, so that will pretty much narrow things down if I continue to have issues. Probably a good opportunity to repeak anyway, which has not ever been done.

 

The missing transponders included those from the local spots (thanks, dpeters, for the spreadsheet). And those were where the failed recordings were (Elementary, The Crazy Ones, Tomorrow People).

 

Thanks everyone. It's nice to have detailed sat info when troubleshooting an intermittent issue this surgically.


It's usually safe to talk honestly and openly with people because they typically are not really listening anyway.

#19 OFFLINE   texasbrit

texasbrit

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,074 posts
Joined: Aug 09, 2006

Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:25 PM

one more Q, does the same applies for a 18x20 LNB?

Yes, it's the same stack plan, but of course there is no 99 or 103 to worry about, so the only transponders that need the 119 guide are the ones on 119 (and 110 if you are in PR, I guess).

So for example if you have a single receiver connected to an 18x20 phase III dish, by one cable, the signalling from the receiver selects either 101, or using the 22KHz tone, 119, and that is what the dish sends you. 110 is mapped so it looks like part of the 119 transponder set. So when you are watching a 101 channel, the guide comes from 101. When you are watching a 110/119 channel, the guide comes from 119.



#20 OFFLINE   texasbrit

texasbrit

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 4,074 posts
Joined: Aug 09, 2006

Posted 21 October 2013 - 08:33 PM

This is all great stuff.

 

I found a major clue to my failed recordings/missing guide data issue (you may notice another thread where I suspect the switch in the LNBF and am replacing it with SWM just on general principles).

 

Non-SWM at the moment, I have four cables coming from the SL5. I plan to reuse one of them. There are F-81 barrels in all just behind the dish, as the cables were there for a nearby Phase III dish replaced in 2007(?). I opened and inspected all four, and found some minor discoloration, which I burnished and then reconnected all four. As I was checking signal on sats on all four DVRs (which I figured I might want to do in case the signal interrupt made one go stupid) I found this anomaly on one DVR:

 

On 103s and only on one tuner, all transponders were missing. Not on other DVRs, which rules out the LNB part of the feedhorn, but not the switch part. I changed the sat setup to some weird sat, rebooted, and then changed it back to SL5, hoping that would blow out a corrupted config, and restore a good one. Just after the reboot, the transponders were no longer missing.

 

OK, that means it could be the DVR, or it still could be the switch. I already ordered the SWM SL3, so that will pretty much narrow things down if I continue to have issues. Probably a good opportunity to repeak anyway, which has not ever been done.

 

The missing transponders included those from the local spots (thanks, dpeters, for the spreadsheet). And those were where the failed recordings were (Elementary, The Crazy Ones, Tomorrow People).

 

Thanks everyone. It's nice to have detailed sat info when troubleshooting an intermittent issue this surgically.

 

If you have zero signal on all the 103s transponders on just one tuner, but the 103ca and 103cb signals are all OK on the same tuner, that's pretty strange. Try swapping over the two cables but leaving the BBCs where they are. If the problem moves to the other tuner, that points to a problem with the cable or multiswitch. If the problem stays on the same tuner, leave the cables as they are (i.e. swapped) and swap the BBCs. If the problem now moves to the other tuner, you have a faulty BBC.






spam firewall