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DSWM13 Switch


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#51 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 02:56 PM

Down the line when it gets to the point that it's purely IP based, even from the LNB (or switch in the case of an MDU), what kind of bandwidth requirements and wiring requirements do you foresee? I'm guessing to guarantee QoS, the number of tuners supported would be determined by (speed of link)/(maximum theoretical channel bitrate)? Is there any idea at this point what that would be? IE: how many tuners would they be willing to install on a dedicated (no other traffic) 100Mb wired network?

 

Well, that all depends on the usable bit rate of a transponder. That in turn depends on what modulation scheme it uses and the amount of error correction ratio. Both of those could be adjusted over time, but let's make a WAG of somewhere between 1 and 2 Mbits per MHz. Maybe someone knows the real answer here?

 

If you have 12 500 MHz bands (they aren't all full, and not all transponders are fully utilized, but let's say they are) then that's 6000 MHz, or between 6 and 12 Gbps for everything, though of course even in the largest MDU not even close to all channels would ever be watched at the same time (unless the residents got together and tried a "flush all toilets at the same time" type of experiment on Directv ;)) Thus the output of all watched channels could easily be carried on a single cat6a cable running 10Gb ethernet.

 

Whether that 10Gb ethernet connection is available on a DSWM LNB or only on a DSWM switch, the MDU should need only the one. The DSWM would send the content via multicast so it would only require one copy of each watched channel, whether only one person is watching it or 100. Between that, and QoS, it is not a difficult problem network wise. These are both fairly mature technologies. The network cabling is no different than what a large MDU that provides ethernet to everyone would already have, or at least would certainly have by the time this was available.

 

In a home, you'd really need to have gigabit ethernet (which runs fine over ordinary cat5) as 100Mb would probably not hold enough channels for much more than a Genie's worth of tuners. Gigabit ethernet is super cheap now, and it will be impossible to find anything slower by the time you could get an IP DSWM LNB for the home. You'd be able to use wireless if you want, as that is already capable of speeds far in excess of 100 Mb, and even faster will be available in the future.


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#52 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:01 PM

The second generation would take a new receiver design, than what we have now.

 

Why? When discussing the second embodiment, the patent indicated that SWM has a maximum of 26 channels. If you do the math the current bandwidth used by the 8+1 channels would allow exactly 34 MHz each for 26+1 channels, not sure if that's where it came from but at any rate I wouldn't assume new receivers would be required.

 

Additionally, just because 26 channels is claimed as the limit doesn't mean they'd actually provide 26 channels if 26 was not compatible with current receivers but some smaller number still much larger than 13 was.


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#53 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:05 PM

Wow ...

 

Thanks a much for this well written explanation. You've really helped my aging brain to understand this a lot better. Wish the patent description had been clearer on this for the main DSWiM parts as it was in quickly explaining the current ASWiM design which I grasped easily.

 

And yes I think the "k = 3" figure for the Ka-hi band is listed because D12 and of course D14 didn't exist when the patent was written and only SW1 & 2 operated in the Ka-hi band then with never greater of six (spotbeam) transponders in use.

 

3 LHCP and 3 RHCP , thus a "k" figure of only 3.

 

 

Cool, thanks! I figured the k=3 thing was something like that, I was racking my brain at first trying to understand that until I remembered that Ka hi was added after Ka lo :)

 

In a real implementation I don't see why they would ever limit the k values, the only penalty for operating on non-existent transponders is a tiny bit of additional power/heat load as more area of the DSP is active. There seems to be little point in doing so and then later having to deliver a firmware update to them with new programming to increase the k value for bands that had transponders added to them.


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#54 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:16 PM

Why? When discussing the second embodiment, the patent indicated that SWM has a maximum of 26 channels. If you do the math the current bandwidth used by the 8+1 channels would allow exactly 34 MHz each for 26+1 channels, not sure if that's where it came from but at any rate I wouldn't assume new receivers would be required.

 

Additionally, just because 26 channels is claimed as the limit doesn't mean they'd actually provide 26 channels if 26 was not compatible with current receivers but some smaller number still much larger than 13 was.

"I think" you're looking at what it "could do", but not how it will fit into the current line of TPs, since some are 50-60 MHz.

"If they were all 32 MHz", then...


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#55 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:36 PM

I've read, thought, reread thought "a bunch more", over and over what you posted.

 

I think you've just described the digital filtering.

 

"In simple terms":

Analog in, frequency shift, ADC, digital filtering, DAC, frequency shift, analog out.

 

 

But that's all a SWM is, and the DSWM is just a digital version of a SWM, made to be cheaper by avoiding SAW filters and improved along the way to output 13 channels instead of 8. I know I confused things with my first few posts, just ignore those and only read the ones from yesterday evening on, after I'd actually read through the entire patent instead of skipping to the end for the good stuff - that IS where the good stuff was, but there are multiple embodiments and the DSWM13 will be only the first.

 

The first embodiment is a building block towards the path to a fully digital solution, but like you say it just does what the SWM8 does, only the transponder selection occurs in the digital domain instead of analog. The second embodiment builds on it by adding higher order functions (Hilbert transforms, Polyphase filters and Fourier transforms) for some of the processing. I believe that the output from that would be I/Q data for full transponders, which would allow placing SWM channels right up against each other with little or no guard band, thereby increasing the channel count to at or near the claimed 26 channel maximum. The third embodiment builds on that to allow operating "on fine pieces of spectrum" (which I take to mean individual Directv channels) The third embodiment shows several options, which ranges from SWM output (detailed in the patent as being two outputs, as on a SWM16) to IP output of I/Q data, to IP output of demodulated I/Q data (i.e., MPEG2/MPEG4)

 

The lack of clarity about exactly what the third embodiment will output may result from not quite being sure what product they wanted to arrive at when the patent was written. The first and second seem pretty clear, so I expect they were both well under development at the time this patent was written.


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#56 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 03:38 PM

"I think" you're looking at what it "could do", but not how it will fit into the current line of TPs, since some are 50-60 MHz.

"If they were all 32 MHz", then...

 

I wasn't aware Directv had any different sized transponders for customer programming. I know they use some 250 MHz wide transponders for internal use.

 

I thought they were all 24 MHz or so wide for Ku and 36 MHz or so for Ka, with some guard bands around them. Which transponders are you referring to that are 50 to 60 MHz wide?


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#57 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 04:22 PM

I wasn't aware Directv had any different sized transponders for customer programming. I know they use some 250 MHz wide transponders for internal use.

 

I thought they were all 24 MHz or so wide for Ku and 36 MHz or so for Ka, with some guard bands around them. Which transponders are you referring to that are 50 to 60 MHz wide?

From what I understand;

 

The Spaceway transponders in their "bent pipe" or "non-processor" mode are technically 62.5 MHz wide, but only the 36 MHz wide central portion of it is used (very inefficient). .

 

D10, 11, and 12 tps. (and soon the upcoming D14) are 36 MHz wide.

 

Ku band tps. are 24 MHz wide.

 

And the tps.for the World Direct international service from G3C at 95W are 27 MHz wide. 


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#58 OFFLINE   TheRatPatrol

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Posted 03 November 2013 - 10:11 PM

So is this new SWiM13 a new LNB that'll go on the dish and only have one cable coming out of it, like the current SWiM 8's? Or will it be more along the lines of the current SWiM 16's?

#59 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:07 AM

"I think" you're looking at what it "could do", but not how it will fit into the current line of TPs, since some are 50-60 MHz.

"If they were all 32 MHz", then...

VOS, we did try to find such, but ... got only 36 MHz max, do you remember ? :)


Edited by P Smith, 04 November 2013 - 12:07 AM.


#60 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:11 AM

So is this new SWiM13 a new LNB that'll go on the dish and only have one cable coming out of it, like the current SWiM 8's? Or will it be more along the lines of the current SWiM 16's?

 

 

We can assume the DSWM13 Directv has announced isn't integrated into a LNB, since it is targeted at the MDU market. There will certainly be a DSWM LNB at some point, but when it will come and whether it will have 13 tuners or have more than 13 is unknown. I'd expect the announced DSWM13 to have a form factor and power requirement identical or nearly identical to the SWM8, since many products for the MDU market are designed specifically to hold multiple SWM8s.

 

There really isn't any reason for anyone to get too excited about DSWM yet, at least not to the point they think "I want one". It doesn't offer any benefits to the consumer over the current SWM anyone is yet aware of, aside from a few extra tuners. It won't have any effect on signal quality - the SNR is mostly set in stone in the LNB before it reaches the SWM/DSWM.

 

Speculation mode: ON

If I had to guess, I'd say we won't see a DSWM LNB until sometime next year, because I now feel fairly certain Directv will need a new LNB to receive everything on its upcoming D14 and D15 satellites. I'm starting to believe there's an outside chance we might see a whole new dish (for new installs only, the new LNB would work fine on the Slimline) Directv waiting a bit before integrating DSWM would have two benefits aside from waiting for the new LNB to be ready. One, the digital components in the DSWM get cheaper over time, and two, they might want to wait for the second generation version which will offer as many as 26 tuners. That would allow just about all residential installs to be done with a single wire.

 


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#61 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:17 AM

So is this new SWiM13 a new LNB that'll go on the dish and only have one cable coming out of it, like the current SWiM 8's? Or will it be more along the lines of the current SWiM 16's?

If its to be used initially for MDU installs in D2 Advantage (formally MFH-2), or DRE systems targeted mainly for hotels, it has to be the stand alone module type first with a DSWiM-LNBF likely following sometime later for residential installs.

 

This will then largely replace the need for a SWiM-16 in many cases for residences which still require the age-old need of a cumbersome four coax line runs to its input that I'm sure DIRECTV would like to get almost totally away from that holdover characteristic of the legacy era.    


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#62 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:15 PM

 

Speculation mode: ON

If I had to guess, I'd say we won't see a DSWM LNB until sometime next year, 

Well, that only gives you 8 weeks to be wrong and 52 to be right.  the odds are on your side!


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#63 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:33 PM

Well, that only gives you 8 weeks to be wrong and 52 to be right.  the odds are on your side!

 

 

OK, I'll amend that speculation, and say we will never see a DSWM LNB using the current stack plan, but a new LNB design using a new stack plan that will take into account all the new stuff like RDBS from 99/103 and Ka from 101. That's going out on a bit more of a limb...


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#64 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 06:26 AM

I don't see the point of a swm 13.

 

Swm 16 is barely larger then a swm 8 now.

So unless directv is dropping swm 8's for 13's it seems pointless to me.


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#65 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

I don't see the point of a swm 13.

 

Swm 16 is barely larger then a swm 8 now.

So unless directv is dropping swm 8's for 13's it seems pointless to me.

Just like the SWM-5 was a proving ground for SWM technology, the SWM-13 will be a proving ground for dSWM technology.  You could very well see a SWM-13 being replaced with a larger version pretty quickly.

 

The ultimate version of this technology can be thought of as the tuner section of one or more Genies integrated into a "switch" sized device.  The "receivers" will be little more than RVU clients, one or more of them with some storage attached.  The SWM-13 is simply the first step down that path.


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#66 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

As was suggested earlier, unless DIRECTV feels the DSWiM-13 cost less to manufacture (no SAW filters, etc.) plus offers more SWiM channels to boot, over old standard of typically allocating 1 SWiM-8 per unit for MDU and the DRE installs. I would agree of not seeing the point to it.

 

The advantage of a future DSWiM13-LNB is more obvious though.


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#67 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 11:23 AM

Just like the SWM-5 was a proving ground for SWM technology, the SWM-13 will be a proving ground for dSWM technology.  You could very well see a SWM-13 being replaced with a larger version pretty quickly.

 

The ultimate version of this technology can be thought of as the tuner section of one or more Genies integrated into a "switch" sized device.  The "receivers" will be little more than RVU clients, one or more of them with some storage attached.  The SWM-13 is simply the first step down that path.

 

This would be *so great* if they'd use the technology to open up the TiVo development beyond a token contractually required box.



#68 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 12:51 PM

This would be *so great* if they'd use the technology to open up the TiVo development beyond a token contractually required box.

I wouldn't hold my breath for that!  DirecTV has a financial disincentive to fully support TiVo - why split a DVR fee with TiVo when they can collect it all for themselves? 


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#69 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:16 PM

I wouldn't hold my breath for that!  DirecTV has a financial disincentive to fully support TiVo - why split a DVR fee with TiVo when they can collect it all for themselves? 

They don't necessarily "split" the DVR fee.  matter fact, DirecTV collects both, their fee plus TiVO's


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#70 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 05 November 2013 - 04:41 PM

Right, getting a TiVo results in additional fees. I'm perfectly OK with that.



#71 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:05 AM

Just like the SWM-5 was a proving ground for SWM technology, the SWM-13 will be a proving ground for dSWM technology.  You could very well see a SWM-13 being replaced with a larger version pretty quickly.

 

The ultimate version of this technology can be thought of as the tuner section of one or more Genies integrated into a "switch" sized device

I can plug in 3 genies into a swim 16, So again still don't see any point in a 13 Unless they are completely dropping the swm 8 and making a swm 13 LNB

 

For MDU, even a 13 is IMO sub par. 

I own a 3 apartment dwelling with Directv service and again would not cut the mustard.

It seems more suitable for a single family home, which would be more logical then just installing swm 8's in a Genie home.


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#72 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:06 AM

As was suggested earlier, unless DIRECTV feels the DSWiM-13 cost less to manufacture (no SAW filters, etc.) plus offers more SWiM channels to boot, over old standard of typically allocating 1 SWiM-8 per unit for MDU and the DRE installs. I would agree of not seeing the point to it.

 

The advantage of a future DSWiM13-LNB is more obvious though.

I agree.


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#73 OFFLINE   carl6

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 07:59 AM

I can plug in 3 genies into a swim 16,

Not without some type of problem. The most you can get off either leg of an SWM 16 is 8 tuners. Only TWO Genies can be supported on an SWM16, which would leave 3 open tuner slots on each side of the 16, not enough for another Genie in either case.



#74 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:13 AM

Not without some type of problem. The most you can get off either leg of an SWM 16 is 8 tuners. Only TWO Genies can be supported on an SWM16, which would leave 3 open tuner slots on each side of the 16, not enough for another Genie in either case.

Sorry your right . :righton:

Swm 16

2 Genies, 2 HD DVRs and 2 HD receivers with whole home.

 

Swm 13 well if its one leg, the sure 2 genies  one HD DVR and 1 HD receiver.

 

Sounds good, But again why bother, I find it hard to believe a SWM13 with the claimed specs. is going to be cheaper.

 

Build a swm 13 LNB and then maybe Directv will have something.

 

http://www.amazon.co...rds=directv swm

 

A swm 13 better be about $30 with power inserter.


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#75 OFFLINE   Ken Stomski

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:20 AM

At a Directv convention in April they hinted at having an unmanaged DRE system for hotels that had daisy chained wiring, verses each room having a home run to a closet which is what DRE requires now.  How it works I have no idea but I will be finding out on the 19th.  As it stands night now if you have daisy chained wiring the only thing I can install is a headend.  I'm kinda excited!






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