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Driverless Vehicles


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#21 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 08:17 PM

It's funny how people believe in the infallibility of machine over man... when you consider that man is building the machine... so by the associative properties of ineptitude, machines cannot be infallible :)


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#22 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 08:29 PM

The more controlled the environment the better the success rate.

I just cleared 12 inches of snow out of my driveway so I can get to the street in the morning. Hopefully the county will plow the street before morning but if they don't I may be able to make it to the next big road which will be plowed. If not by morning I hope they at least get my street plowed one lane before I get home, It is harder to get home than get out.

I wonder how the Google car handles snow? The cues needed to maintain lane control are not always evident in the snow.

Answering my own question:

1) The cars have trouble detecting lane markers when there is snow on the road.

2) They can get lost when they come to changes in the road that aren’t on the map.

3) They have trouble understanding when traffic cops direct traffic with hand signals.

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Rebuilding every road in the nation to have good lane markers will be expensive (how about the California counties where they are not even bothering to maintain the pavement).

When your GPS errors and tells you to turn left into a river on onto a railroad track the human can catch it. Some day a Google car will make that fatal mistake.

And when going through a construction zone with a worker flagging traffic telling the difference between an octagon stop sign and an octagon slow sign is a challenge. Not to mention hand signals and flags.

 

The article that you linked, answered all of those concerns.  Obviously this is not happening overnight, but by doing baby steps, we eventually get there


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#23 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 08:31 PM

It's funny how people believe in the infallibility of machine over man... when you consider that man is building the machine... so by the associative properties of ineptitude, machines cannot be infallible :)

Correct. men build machines, but machines don't have feelings and bad habits (read road rage and DWI, TWD, DUI...etc)


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#24 ONLINE   phrelin

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Posted 05 January 2014 - 11:49 PM

The article that you linked, answered all of those concerns.  Obviously this is not happening overnight, but by doing baby steps, we eventually get there

 

I really do think we will gain a lot in safety from the research.

 

The idea of truly "driverless" cars almost becomes a puzzle to me. Someone in the car has to know where the car is taking them - there is a reason to have a driver designated even if that person merely observes to make sure the car is going to the right place. I guess someone could send their dry cleaning to the drive through dry cleaners without anyone being in the car. But it seems like Jeff Bezos' drones would be more effective as delivery and pickup service vehicles.

 

But I think collision avoidance software would work well when all the cars on the road are capable of monitoring each other. You couldn't have that everywhere on every car, but most certainly urban and suburban driving could be made safer.


Edited by phrelin, 05 January 2014 - 11:50 PM.

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#25 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:02 AM

It's funny how people believe in the infallibility of machine over man... when you consider that man is building the machine... so by the associative properties of ineptitude, machines cannot be infallible :)


While I agree in general the idea is that Machines do far less and have far less variables because it's usually a specific task, and they aren't susceptible to the problems that humans are i.e. fatigue food hunger etc. those things generally can be better controlled the regular maintenance schedule than human. It's rare for a properly taken care of for machine to randomly get sick in the middle of it's shift where is for human we all know you get sick at any moment. So to speak.

#26 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 07:00 AM

While I agree in general the idea is that Machines do far less and have far less variables because it's usually a specific task, and they aren't susceptible to the problems that humans are i.e. fatigue food hunger etc. those things generally can be better controlled the regular maintenance schedule than human. It's rare for a properly taken care of for machine to randomly get sick in the middle of it's shift where is for human we all know you get sick at any moment. So to speak.


Many human illnesses come from not being properly maintained. In a perfect world the mechanized helpers would be perfectly maintained and never break down. But people, the flaw in the process as Stewart points out, are involved in making sure their devices are perfectly maintained. Just as the human body is only as good as the way each individual treats it devices are only as good as their maintenance schedule.

There seems to be a disconnect ... the thought that humans are so flawed that we need to replace them with machines. Yet somehow the machines will be less flawed than their creator? When a flaw is pointed out in a machine the answer is "we can fix that" yet when flaws are pointed out in humans the attitude is "give up we're beyond hope".

The problems that face the human machine are solvable. Fatigue can be cured by rest. If eight hours is too long to go without refueling how about having a lunch? Make the lunch an hour so the body can be properly refueled. If four hours is too monotonous to work then schedule a break. If the manual for our devices says to shut down reboot the system every hour and refuel every four hours why is that accepted as "normal maintenance" for a machine yet "goofing off" for the human machine?

More serious faults can develop in machines as well as humans. I've worked at places where machines "randomly" got sick. Yes, often the random illness can be traced back to the user (please don't execute attachments!). But now we're back to the "flawed humans" who will, as Stewart suggests, remain part of the process no matter how mechanized one tries to make the world.
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#27 ONLINE   phrelin

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:41 PM

We have already replaced humans with "machines" in the workplace. Assembly lines use far fewer workers. I used to type out drafts. I would then grab a pencil and mark them up correcting typos, rewriting sentences, etc. then I would give them to a secretary or clerk-typist to have the final version prepared for my signature. Most of my peers dictated to a secretary who took shorthand (or into a dictaphone from which a secretary would prepare the final document). In most workplaces most of those typing positions were eliminated or in the last two decades never created.

Yes, my word processing software makes errors from time to time, as its spellchecker isn't perfect. But I fix the problem and fewer errors appear than ever before.

Jobs, particularly the tedious ones, get eliminated through the development of appropriate technology which is still implemented and operated by people, just far fewer people per unit produced. The eliminated jobs are frequently counted as "people replaced" as many, many times the economy fails to create enough jobs to replace those lost. Hence, people are replaced by machines - at least many folks say or write that.

Commercial aircraft have pretty darn good autopilots, but they are still controlled by pilots. The system even with both sometimes fails. IMHO cars will always have drivers but the "driverless" research will lead to "autodrivers" that can make driving less dangerous.

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#28 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:43 PM

Yeah... that's exactly where I was going.  James also makes an excellent argument that people could in many ways fix themselves easier than they could fix machines... at least for the most common human flaws that are thrown around.

 

edit...

 

Regarding people already being replaced... let's go with automated manufacturing vs people...  Yes, machines are making stuff faster than people.. at least the amount of people normally employed at such places..

 

But is manufacturing perfect now?  Are there never manufacturing problems?  And when a problem happens on the assembly line...  the machines can churn out a lot more mistakes faster too... than humans would IF a human was making the same error...

 

When humans make stuff and bad product comes down the line, they can correct it quicker before too much waste happens... but the machines can churn out the flaws faster too.

 

It pays to remember that we aren't living in a perfect world.  People design the machines, people build the machines, people operate the machines, and people maintain the machines.  Unless and until that changes, people are still the fly in the ointment and you're just trading one problem for another... not ridding the world of human problems.


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#29 OFFLINE   Drucifer

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Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:18 PM

Driverless Car Experience
 

173px-CES_logo.svg.png

VCC, Gold Plaza

Discover the road to driverless mobility in the all-new Driverless Car Experience, sponsored by Bosch. This TechZone will feature a variety of technologies that support the future of autonomous/automated driving including parking assist, collision avoidance and emergency braking and much more.

 

SOURCE

 

Look like DBSTalk members attending this year CES can ride in one of these


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#30 ONLINE   phrelin

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:30 AM

I hope someone can give us a report on this - particularly things like collision avoidance and emergency braking.


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#31 ONLINE   Nick

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Posted 07 January 2014 - 09:15 AM

Yeah... that's exactly where I was going.  James also makes an excellent argument that people could in many ways fix themselves easier than they could fix machines... at least for the most common human flaws that are thrown around.

 

...we aren't living in a perfect world.  People design the machines, people build the machines, people operate the machines, and people maintain the machines.  Unless and until that changes, people are still the fly in the ointment and you're just trading one problem for another... not ridding the world of human problems.

 

Any autonomous machine, whether built by humans or by other machines, will always have a kernel of human instruction no matter how minute, thus will always be subject to human-like fallibility. The fictional operating system, HAL 9000, is a prime example. From a human-logic view, the flaw in HAL's instruction-set was the inability to adapt its perspective to the changing environment and, because of its 'preserve the mission at all costs' directive, resisted emergency override by the surviving crew member.

 

When all else fails, refer to Asimov's "Three Laws of Robotics", including subsequent iterations, such as the Zeroth Law, which introduces the possibility (likelyhood?) of ambiguity or internal conflict when balancing the good of a man against the good of mankind.


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#32 OFFLINE   Drucifer

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:17 PM

Audi A7 Takes the Wheel at CES 2014
 

Audi gave CNET a demonstration of its autonomous vehicle technology, which it calls Piloted Driving, during CES 2014

 

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Read More


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#33 ONLINE   phrelin

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:29 PM

I like the concept of "Piloted Driving", particularly this: "In this initial conception, the car will use facial recognition cameras to tell if the driver isn't paying attention to the road or nodding off, then sound an alert." That feature alone would save lives.

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#34 OFFLINE   houskamp

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 09:35 AM

With the amount of tiime I spend fixing all the "fix crappy driver" toys on cars now, there's no way I would ever ride in a automatic drive car.. we can't even keep the stuff we have working reliablely for a few years bouncing down the road..not to mention how much more they cost already..

 

spending more than 2 weeks showing movies and playing on a simulator in what we call drivers training would be much more effective..


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#35 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 18 January 2014 - 01:21 PM

I seem to remember Driver's Ed being more than two weeks ... I believe it was six weeks - but it was a long time ago.

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#36 OFFLINE   yosoyellobo

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 10:56 AM

After watching an article on CBS News Sunday Morning on driverless vehicle I believe that only if the cars manufactures assume responsibilities for for any accident while the car is under the control the car. A Mercedes Benz which might be one of the first to bring one on the market will not do so until they are sure they could reduce the risk to a minimum. Personally I would not drive one unless any liability in a accident would be assume by the car manufacturer.

#37 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 19 January 2014 - 12:47 PM

After watching an article on CBS News Sunday Morning on driverless vehicle I believe that only if the cars manufactures assume responsibilities for for any accident while the car is under the control the car. A Mercedes Benz which might be one of the first to bring one on the market will not do so until they are sure they could reduce the risk to a minimum. Personally I would not drive one unless any liability in a accident would be assume by the car manufacturer.

Yeah, that's what I was hinting at earlier.

 

If the argument is supposed to be that the self-driving car is safer and better and more reliable than a human... then why hold a human responsible if there is an accident?  IF I'm going to be held responsible for an accident that I'm in while inside of my car... then I better be able to drive it so that at least I have a shot at avoiding the accident myself.  IF I'm not in control, then I'm not liable.


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#38 OFFLINE   djlong

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 05:48 AM

In the US we lose over 30,000 people a year to road accidents.

 

Here's the conundrum.  What if automatic driving could reduce that to 500?

 

You don't seem to want to accept anything less than a PERFECT replacement for a HUGELY flawed original (human driver).

 

It'll be an interesting debate.  I predict insurance companies will offer discounts to those who accept AND USE auto-drive.



#39 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:13 AM

One feature I really liked on a segment yesterday - I think CBS 'Sunday Morning' was valet parking. . .the car drops you off and goes and parks. . . then picks you up.

 

Not that I would use it as I enter or exit close to the Mall - the few times I go to the mall,  I'd rather get dropped off or picked up further away from the entrance.  I hate parking lots and those drivers!



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#40 OFFLINE   yosoyellobo

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Posted 20 January 2014 - 09:48 AM

In the US we lose over 30,000 people a year to road accidents.
 
Here's the conundrum.  What if automatic driving could reduce that to 500?
 
You don't seem to want to accept anything less than a PERFECT replacement for a HUGELY flawed original (human driver).
 
It'll be an interesting debate.  I predict insurance companies will offer discounts to those who accept AND USE auto-drive.


If the cars companies do a good job and the insurance companies offer discounts sign me up.




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