Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

NASCAR Proposed Chase Changes 2014


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,474 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 01 February 2014 - 12:16 PM

I like the new format. It keeps the winner undisclosed until the last race is over.

 

In the past there could be a winner before the last race is run.

 

James, you are very correct that a non winner could be the Chase Champion.


Edited by jimmie57, 01 February 2014 - 12:48 PM.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#22 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Topic Starter
  • Super Moderators
  • 39,729 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:12 PM

In the past there could be a winner before the last race is run.

That is the reason why the chase was started 10 years ago ... no big climatic race. And while the chase did not guarantee that a champion would not be known the race before the final it made it unlikely. The recent changes seem to be an overreaction to the "must finish 22nd or better" championship wins. (if only the past two years were more like 2011's win race to win championship.)

The change seems designed to appease the uneducated fans and non-fans of NASCAR who don't know or want to know how a body of work over 10 to 36 races ends up with a champion ... while telling long term fans that the sport they have loved for years is broken and needs to be more like other sports, which we assume are not broken. Perhaps NASCAR really isn't a sport. It is just a wanna be?

I believe a better solution would be to educate the fans ... put more emphasis in the media on the body of work - a 10 race playoff not a single race. If people were confused by the outcome of the final race not making a lot of difference in the championship perhaps they need to be reminded how important "game 7" is when one team wins the first four games of the series. It is so important that NBA and MLB don't even bother to play it. The NBA and MLB allow a champion to be chosen based on the best performance in a series ... why can't NASCAR? Or do they think their fans are too stupid to understand?

Yeah, I liked NASCAR (past tense). At the moment I tolerate NASCAR. There are races I'll probably not watch this year because of the rule change. By the end of the year I'll know if it is worth watching at all in 2015.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#23 OFFLINE   4HiMarks

4HiMarks

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,312 posts
  • LocationLaurel, MD
Joined: Jan 21, 2004

Posted 03 February 2014 - 11:06 AM

I see it as a return to the sport's roots, where you had a series of qualifying heats to decide who advances to the next round, as is also done in the Olympics for many types of races.

What does it matter that someone who didn't win a race all year could win the championship? That could have happened under the previous format, too. I think the new format makes it less likely.


Dish subscriber since 2000, HD since 2004.

#24 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Topic Starter
  • Super Moderators
  • 39,729 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 03 February 2014 - 07:23 PM

What does it matter that someone who didn't win a race all year could win the championship? That could have happened under the previous format, too. I think the new format makes it less likely.

I disagree ... I believe it is more likely that there will be an "upset" - a driver with less wins or perhaps even winless will get the championship.

Here's the math ...
In the days before the chase NASCAR assigned points for winning and finishing well and awarded the championship to the driver with the most points. But it was too easy for drivers to win a championship before the last race. So they created the chase - a system that eliminated most drivers but increased the opportunity for the 10th place driver to win a championship.

These latest changes level the playing field each round. 12 drivers EQUAL at 3000 points regardless of if they have a win or not (no seeding with 3 extra points for each win. 8 drivers EQUAL at 4000 points just three races later ... and it is guaranteed that at least five of the drivers did not win one of those three races. 4 drivers EQUAL at 5000 points for the finale. The leveling of the playing field every three races throws away the season up to that point and puts the winless or drivers with less wins all on the same footing.

Yes, mathematically one could always win a championship without a win. Matt Kenseth nearly did it. Mathematically one could have the best average finish in the history of NASCAR and still lose the championship. Ask Carl Edwards. If you want a system that heavily rewards drivers for their performance at one track NASCAR is your game.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#25 OFFLINE   4HiMarks

4HiMarks

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,312 posts
  • LocationLaurel, MD
Joined: Jan 21, 2004

Posted 04 February 2014 - 11:50 AM

You have to consider that in previous seasons, at least one driver with a "regular season" win has been locked out of the Chase. I believe that one year, Kasey Kahne even had the most wins, but also had a bunch of DNFs, so he missed out. The next year they changed the format so he would have made it. Now, every driver with a win is almost guaranteed to be in the Chase. More drivers with wins eligible = greater chance winner will be someone who has a win.

 

Your math is only considering wins after the Chase has started. The new system heavily rewards drivers with a "checkers or wreckers" attitude, as opposed to playing it safe and just going for a leisurely Sunday drive.


Dish subscriber since 2000, HD since 2004.

#26 OFFLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,474 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 04 February 2014 - 12:37 PM

We will have a better feel for the new format after this first season of it is over.


Edited by jimmie57, 04 February 2014 - 12:37 PM.

DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#27 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Topic Starter
  • Super Moderators
  • 39,729 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 04 February 2014 - 05:14 PM

You have to consider that in previous seasons, at least one driver with a "regular season" win has been locked out of the Chase. I believe that one year, Kasey Kahne even had the most wins, but also had a bunch of DNFs, so he missed out. The next year they changed the format so he would have made it. Now, every driver with a win is almost guaranteed to be in the Chase. More drivers with wins eligible = greater chance winner will be someone who has a win.


I don't mind opening the chase to all winners ... it is the eliminations (especially the one race with no credit for previous races) that I am firmly against.
 

Your math is only considering wins after the Chase has started. The new system heavily rewards drivers with a "checkers or wreckers" attitude, as opposed to playing it safe and just going for a leisurely Sunday drive.


That is NASCAR's math starting this year. As teams make the next round only getting into that round matters. Win in one round and you make the next. But once the team is in the top 12 all previous scoring is tossed. If they reach the top 8 all previous scoring is tossed. If they reach the top 4 all 35 races worth of previous scoring is tossed.

Which is why a no win driver can win the chase ... despite other drivers having six or seven wins. All they have to do is make it to the last round.


I also take issue with the claim that drivers are not giving 100%. NASCAR is insulting their drivers. While there are times where a driver did not have to give 100% to advance - and may have held back - there was a 100% rule in place. If NASCAR felt that Jimmie Johnson was not giving 100% and could have finished higher than 9th last year at Homestead they should have fined him $s and points. Dale Jr outdrove Jimmie Johnson and in a one race winner takes all he would have won the championship: without a race win. That is the reality of NASCAR's new rules.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#28 OFFLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,474 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:23 PM

How many times have you heard a driver or crew chief say "looking at the bigger picture". To me that says they did not try as hard as they could because they wanted the higher points and not take the risk of a crash and some points. I am looking forward to the season starting.

 

Today they laid out in black and white about punishments and what each type would cost. I like that also.


DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#29 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Topic Starter
  • Super Moderators
  • 39,729 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:53 PM

I've heard a lot of interviews where a driver said they took a tenth place car and finished in the top five ... or a fifth place car gets second or wins. There has been "we had a fifth place car before ..." the accident or engine failure or whatever went wrong. A lot of emphasis on "we did the best we could" or "we did better than we expected".

The "good points day" seemed to be the silver lining with some drivers embracing the reality that yes, it was good to finish where they did - but a lot of eye rolls. Kyle Busch's temper tantrums for finishing second were both praised for his desire to win every time and reviled for poor sportsmanship. But I felt more drivers wanted to express themselves like Kyle ... ticked that they came in second ... but didn't want to be the cry baby on TV.

As needed as they are to pay for the sports, the sponsors get in the way of NASCAR's acceptability. As annoying as the "good points day" interviews (with or without the eyeroll) the everlasting joke of NASCAR is the product placement ... gotta take a sip of Coke on camera and spew every sponsor one can remember before saying "we ran well".

Yes, there are product placements in other sports - normally sportswear on the athletes and stadium/bowl game naming rights. But the practically traditional "going to Disneyworld!" comment is about the most you'll get out of an athlete at the event (although Payton Manning did a good job of promoting Omaha).

I gotta stop thinking about how broken NASCAR is ... :)
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#30 ONLINE   kikkenit2

kikkenit2

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 665 posts
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:29 AM

I told you they would change the rules so Earnhardt Jr would win. lol  Way to go Dale. Enough of second place.

I recorded 5 hours extra and still didn't catch the end of the race. And the stands looked packed late at night even.

Replay friday evening fox sports 1.



#31 OFFLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,474 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 24 February 2014 - 07:15 AM

The one new rule from last night is that Dale Jr is now in the Chase for the championship already.

Coming up this weekend we will get to see how the new qualifying rules play out.

 

Dale Jr is always strong at that track and I think the earned the race last night with the speed in the car and the driver knowing how to drive this type of track.


DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#32 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Topic Starter
  • Super Moderators
  • 39,729 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

I told you they would change the rules so Earnhardt Jr would win.


Don't tell Dave Moody or he will shout you off of his radio show ... but Dale would have won the championship last year without winning a race. At least this year he has a race win - and at the best track to win.

And he did something his daddy never did. He won the Daytona 500 twice.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#33 ONLINE   kikkenit2

kikkenit2

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 665 posts
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:29 PM

I would quote my statement in post #3, but this website doesn't even work right with internet explorer 11. Amazing.

Lucky for me I don't even know who Dave Moody is. I remember Dale Earnhardt was the dirtiest driver around and

had to ram cars out of the way on the last lap to win over and over again. Eventually he learned how to win fairly or

something so he became the #1 driver. Maybe he didn't win the Daytona 500 much, but he won a bunch of championships.

 

His son was popular just because he was his son. And maintains that popularity while hardly ever winning. I don't see

that happening in any other sport, racing or not. In 2004 his car had 10% more power than anybody else and he pulled

away from the pack no sweat. Many accused nascar of letting him cheat to win. He hadn't won for 55 straight races, but

always come close at Daytona. About time Jimmie Johnson let him win this race. I still want to watch the finish. Now, lets

see if the most popular driver by far can win somewhere else. If not, he is the richest steady loser ever.

 

And for any league or race series to crown their champion without winning even one race isn't something to be proud of.

Tell Dave M. that would be embarrassing. I hope he wins more than one race this year. For nascar and the fans sake.


Edited by kikkenit2, 24 February 2014 - 11:53 PM.


#34 ONLINE   kikkenit2

kikkenit2

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 665 posts
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:26 AM

So Dave Moody is the Sirius radio nascar guy? If he didn't support Jr he would be run out of town. Didn't they make a new rule about pushing and someone got penalized early in the race for doing just that? 88 teammate Jeff Gordon admitted pushing Jr on the last restart and both of his teammates (legally) blocked the field and had 3 of the top 5 engines in the field? I can't wait to see the end of this race. Maybe they did cheat a little to win. And a big chunk of tape accidentally stuck on his grill helped the car go faster? Amazing sport.



#35 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Topic Starter
  • Super Moderators
  • 39,729 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:33 AM

If NASCAR were rigged Jr would be winning a lot more races. Haters always hate ... and yes, Jr gets some sympathy for losing his dad but he is a good driver. Perhaps not the greatest driver but better than most.

If you want a sport where the most popular team wins every time perhaps in your sport they shouldn't compete, they should take a vote before each matchup and the vote winner wins the match. What legitimate sport does that? Sports are filled with upsets ... even the most popular teams don't win every event.

Name a sport that only has 36 competitions per year like Sprint Cup Racing. The best drivers win six or seven races per year (on a good year). It is easy to rack up wins in the big stick and ball sports where one team only has to beat one team each time they play. Not one team trying to beat 42 other competitors each weekend.

Golf is the only other sport I can think of where one competes against many and determines one winner. Nearly every other sport is match play with half the people or teams playing ending up with a win.


Pushing was outlawed in the Nationwide series and truck series ... trying to avoid the "two car tandem" where cars could lock bumper to bumper and jump ahead of the competition. Pushing was reduced in the cup series by redesigning the cars so they don't push well - or they overheat if the cars lock together for too long.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#36 ONLINE   kikkenit2

kikkenit2

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 665 posts
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:15 AM

I would quote a little, but quote doesn't work...  I don't hate nascar. I certainly don't like it near as much as you. Plenty of other racing/sports to like.

Especially on directv. And I like Jr. a lot. I am just amazed that someone that hardly ever wins is the fan favorite about 8 years straight. Any sport where the same person/team wins all the time is terrible. It becomes boring. Luckily that almost never happens. Most sports have less than 36 competitors? There are lots of sports (like ski racing) that have a long list of competitors. You see only the few best on tv to save time and keep it exciting.

 

I would like to see Jr win a lot more (fan favorite or not). Especially the season championship. I am sick and tired of Jimmie Johnson winning so many. I think it would help nascar ratings/popularity a lot if Jr went on a roll. And no I don't want any cheating for that to happen. Early in the Daytona 500 I thought they black flagged a driver for pushing. No? I can't really comment on what happened because I didn't see much of the race. Nobody can control the weather. I'll watch the replay next saturday.



#37 OFFLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,474 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:45 AM

So Dave Moody is the Sirius radio nascar guy? If he didn't support Jr he would be run out of town. Didn't they make a new rule about pushing and someone got penalized early in the race for doing just that? 88 teammate Jeff Gordon admitted pushing Jr on the last restart and both of his teammates (legally) blocked the field and had 3 of the top 5 engines in the field? I can't wait to see the end of this race. Maybe they did cheat a little to win. And a big chunk of tape accidentally stuck on his grill helped the car go faster? Amazing sport.

Yes, there was a car penalized in the Nationwide race for pushing. He was on the guy's back bumper too long according to the officials. You can push, but ever so slightly for a short time. It is a subjective call.

I watched the race and the bearer bond tape was on the track during the yellow flag and Jr ran right over it. Not really because the splitters are always down now and technically touching the track ( new rule ). It , the splitter, picked up the tape and it stuck to the front. He and others at first thought it was a big black trash bag. He moved up within inches of the pace car several times in an attempt to get it off but because it was tape it was stuck and would not move.

Blocking is part of racing. Blocking does cause a lot of wrecks.


DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#38 OFFLINE   jimmie57

jimmie57

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,474 posts
  • LocationTexas City, TX
Joined: Jun 26, 2010

Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:48 AM

I would quote a little, but quote doesn't work...  I don't hate nascar. I certainly don't like it near as much as you. Plenty of other racing/sports to like.

Especially on directv. And I like Jr. a lot. I am just amazed that someone that hardly ever wins is the fan favorite about 8 years straight. Any sport where the same person/team wins all the time is terrible. It becomes boring. Luckily that almost never happens. Most sports have less than 36 competitors? There are lots of sports (like ski racing) that have a long list of competitors. You see only the few best on tv to save time and keep it exciting.

 

I would like to see Jr win a lot more (fan favorite or not). Especially the season championship. I am sick and tired of Jimmie Johnson winning so many. I think it would help nascar ratings/popularity a lot if Jr went on a roll. And no I don't want any cheating for that to happen. Early in the Daytona 500 I thought they black flagged a driver for pushing. No? I can't really comment on what happened because I didn't see much of the race. Nobody can control the weather. I'll watch the replay next saturday.

If you are using IE11 the quote and spell check does not work. I uninstalled that update on my 2 computers and it took me back to IE10 with everything in tact, shortcuts, etc. Spellcheck and Quotes works once again.

 

You can also use Fire Fox and it will work also.


DirecTV customer since 1996 - Current :Slimline 3 SWM,   HR24-100 HDMI to 32" Sharp LED,
HR24-100 Component cables to 46" Samsung LCD & Optical Cable to Yamaha AVR, H21-200 HDMI to Yamaha AVR & HDMI to 52" Mitsubishi LCD


#39 ONLINE   kikkenit2

kikkenit2

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 665 posts
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:38 AM

Jimmie thanks for that explanation. I was beginning to think I was banned from quoting. I wish they would fix this site.

 

I padded that race 5 hours long and still missed the last 35 laps. Missed all the excitement of not knowing who won.

Dale Jr winning is a huge thing. Opened up my sports page today and top of first page is a reprint from Orlando

Sentinal newspaper. Correction. The article says he is fan favorite 11 years running. And the article reflects exactly

my opinion. Amazing he has held that popularity while winning 3 of last 215 races. Written by George Diaz.

 

I am glad they eliminated all that pushing. I called it the towtruck 500 here a few years ago and my post got erased

after a few weeks. I don't blame you James. It really was ridiculous to watch. Did cause some good pileups though.

I looked up some records last night. Senior 7 championships. Jr zero. Hopefully he wins some more races.

 

Now sober up and fix this website.



#40 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Topic Starter
  • Super Moderators
  • 39,729 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:35 PM

Any sport where the same person/team wins all the time is terrible. It becomes boring. Luckily that almost never happens.


The big stick and ball sports ... even the worst teams win. The worst team in professional football last year won two of their 16 games. Winning 12.5% of the games they played ... and that's the worst team in 2013? The worst team in professional baseball last year won 51 games - 31.5% of 162 games. The worst team in professional basketball had 11 wins - 19.6% of 56 games.

Most sports have less than 36 competitors?


Reading is important ... less than 36 COMPETITIONS. Professional football has less (16 in the regular season vs 26 in the pre-chase cup season). But the biggest difference is match play. Half of the participants win ... fans of even the worst teams can get several wins nearly every year. In NASCAR Cup races only 43 teams get to compete and there is only one winner.

Perhaps people who expect a lot of wins spread around all competitors are too stuck on stick and ball sports scoring. 
 

Jimmie thanks for that explanation. I was beginning to think I was banned from quoting. I wish they would fix this site.


Fix your browser ... my workplace considers IE 11 "not ready for prime time". It has not been deployed to most users (too many important sites that can't use it) and the few people with IE 11 have to deal with the glitches and run in compatibility mode where possible. IE 11 is broken.
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.




Protected By... spam firewall...And...