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When Directv goes all mpeg4 will they still use 101,110 and 119?


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#1 OFFLINE   mkdtv21

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:39 AM

I don't know much about all this and how it all works but are there sd satellite's capable of transmitting mpeg4 channels and would they use them once everyone is converted to mpeg4. Also another question is out all the satellites Directv has including thier sd and hd, which one has the most bandwidth capacity?



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#2 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:23 AM

I don't know much about all this and how it all works but are there sd satellite's capable of transmitting mpeg4 channels and would they use them once everyone is converted to mpeg4. Also another question is out all the satellites Directv has including thier sd and hd, which one has the most bandwidth capacity?

 

As they only have a few transponders on 110 and a few more on 119, you can rule those out.

 

In reality, you would have to say the spotbeams have the most bandwidth capacity as they can distribute the same bandwidth mutliple times over the same satellite transponders to different regions of the USA.

 

Satellites do not care about HD/SD/MPEG2/MPEG4 format. It's all 1s and 0s to them.

 

Speculation 110/119 might be used for UHD programming with newer h.265/HVEC instead of h.264/MPEG4.



#3 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 06:13 AM

But the band does matter doesn't it? I don't think you can switch a ka transponder to Ku.


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#4 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:42 AM

you mean Ku to Ka? but why would you want to switch?


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#5 OFFLINE   longrider

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 07:56 AM

No, the transponder frequency wont change but as already stated it doesnt care if the signal content is SD or HD or MPEG2, MPEG4, HVEC or something not even designed yet


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#6 OFFLINE   dpeters11

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:05 AM

Yeah, Ku to Ka. It's not an area I know much about, but thought there was probably a particular reason that they put HD on Ka. Would they really want to have some HD on Ku and some on Ka?



#7 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:08 AM

Yeah, Ku to Ka. It's not an area I know much about, but thought there was probably a particular reason that they put HD on Ka. Would they really want to have some HD on Ku and some on Ka?

the reason HD is on Ka is just pure coincidence.  DirecTV needed more sats but did not have the space (no pun intended) so they needed a satellite that can be close to their existing one.  Ku requires 9 degrees of separation where as Ka requires only two.


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#8 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:44 AM

IMHO I don't see DIRECTV giving up any satellite slot/transponder licenses. They're hard to come by and with bandwidth always being a limiting factor doesn't make sense to get rid of them.


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#9 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:01 AM

the reason HD is on Ka is just pure coincidence.  DirecTV needed more sats but did not have the space (no pun intended) so they needed a satellite that can be close to their existing one.  Ku requires 9 degrees of separation where as Ka requires only two.

And in addition DIRECTV needed larger bandwidth transponders, 36 MHz, to transmit full HD (1920 x 1080) program multiplexes as opposed to the smaller 24 Mhz ones of the Ku band.

 

This means less transponders in a 500 MHz band of course, 24 (using a standard guard band of 4 Mhz between transponders) verses the 32 on the Ku band.

 

But is compensated for by having two 500 Mhz authorized sub-bands for Ka, "A" and "B." So allowing for a max. total of 48 transponders on Ka. 


Edited by HoTat2, 19 February 2014 - 10:03 AM.

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#10 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 10:44 AM

the reason HD is on Ka is just pure coincidence.  DirecTV needed more sats but did not have the space (no pun intended) so they needed a satellite that can be close to their existing one.  Ku requires 9 degrees of separation where as Ka requires only two.

I submit that it had a whole lot more to do with the fact that the Ku frequencies are mostly taken than it is a proximity issue.

It probably also has something to do with the fact that Hughes bailed on a couple of Ka satellites that it had commissioned (Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2).

The reason that they put HD and/or MPEG4 on Ka is because they didn't have a significant number of customers that needed to be upgraded to keep the same service whereas if they had tried to do that with SD, everyone would need new equipment.

The need for greater FEC at the more fade prone frequencies substantially negates any benefit of additional transponder bandwidth so HoTat2's argument may be, at least partially, a red herring.

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#11 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 12:32 PM

And in addition DIRECTV needed larger bandwidth transponders, 36 MHz, to transmit full HD (1920 x 1080) program multiplexes as opposed to the smaller 24 Mhz ones of the Ku band.

 

This means less transponders in a 500 MHz band of course, 24 (using a standard guard band of 4 Mhz between transponders) verses the 32 on the Ku band.

 

But is compensated for by having two 500 Mhz authorized sub-bands for Ka, "A" and "B." So allowing for a max. total of 48 transponders on Ka. 

Wrong point; G3C@95W and/119W has DSS-3 (aka Ka) tpns and has enough bitrate to transmit H.264 eg HD channels. Less then on Ka, but enough for a few.



#12 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:52 PM

Wrong point; G3C@95W and/119W has DSS-3 (aka Ka) tpns and has enough bitrate to transmit H.264 eg HD channels. Less then on Ka, but enough for a few.

Yes P. Smith ...

 

But as I understand it, the "DSS-3" HD signals on G3C or Ku transponder 24 @119 (for 4 Spanish HD channels at present) have to use 8-PSK modulation to reduce the data throughput requirement in order to squeeze sufficient numbers of programs into the lesser 24 Mhz wide transponders there.

 

However, 8-PSK is apparently not suitable (at least to DIRECTV engineers it seems) for Ka band CONUS beams, and thus use only QPSK mod. for them. Therefore a greater transponder bandwidth is necessary on Ka for them to handle the greater data throughput requirement for the lower mod. level. 


Edited by HoTat2, 19 February 2014 - 02:24 PM.

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#13 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

in general you are correct, but DTV employ both

 

Ka tpn using both QPSK and 8PSK modulation , DSS-3 is actually DVB-S2 type with DTV's AMC addition for content protection


Edited by P Smith, 19 February 2014 - 02:42 PM.


#14 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 02:59 PM

in general you are correct, but DTV employ both

 

Ka tpn using both QPSK and 8PSK modulation , DSS-3 is actually DVB-S2 type with DTV's AMC addition for content protection

Do they ever use 8-PSK mod. on CONUS beams?

 

I'm aware DIRECTV uses it for spotbeams on occasion, but CONUS?

 

And what does "AMC" mean?

 

I thought DIRECTV uses NDS Videoguard for content protection.


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#15 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 03:00 PM

check with Gary

 

see DTV patents



#16 OFFLINE   Ed Campbell

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:22 PM

Speculation 110/119 might be used for UHD programming with newer h.265/HVEC instead of h.264/MPEG4.


+1 I hope.


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#17 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 04:30 PM

They will absolutely still use 101, as others have pointed out there is nothing connecting Ku to MPEG2 and Ka to MPEG4. Once it no longer carries MPEG2, it'll carry MPEG4 and no doubt by that time HEVC (for 4K) They may move some heavily watched HD channels like ESPN and HBO to 101, and would probably want 4K channels there as well, to take advantage of Ku's greater rain fade resistance.

 

As far as 110 and 119, who knows. When the satellite at 110 needs to be replaced, will it really be worth the expense for Directv to do so to provide a mere three transponders? They aren't even using them right now in the US (I think they are in PR) The argument is that they don't want the competition (i.e. Dish) to get them, but is it really worth launching a satellite to keep Dish from adding three more transponders? I can't see how. On 119 they have a total of 11 transponders (7 CONUS, 4 spots on the current satellite) so I agree giving that up would be highly unlikely.

 

My belief is that once Directv ceases MPEG2 broadcast, 110 and 119 will not be used for customer broadcast in the US. They seem to have plenty of internal uses for bandwidth (they have 2000 MHz of Ka bandwidth on 101 they use internally now) and it makes sense to keep all the customer content into the tight little group they now have at 99/101/103.

 

Directv is licensed for a ton of new bandwidth on 99/103 in the RDBS band (17.3 to 17.7 GHz, just a bit below Ka lo) Their next two satellites are both capable of doing CONUS broadcast in that band. We can't know right now if they'll use it for customer content or internal use. If it is used for customers it would only require a new LNB (and a firmware update, obviously) for every HD customer to begin receiving it. I wouldn't be surprised to see them replicate all the content on 119 and 95 on RDBS. It would only require about 6 or 7 transponders (out of the 18 or 36 RDBS transponders they would have available) and they'd only have to make that new LNB in SL3 form - no more SL5, and no more LOS issues there sometimes are with 119.


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#18 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 01:42 PM

+1 I hope.


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DIRECTV is not going to throw 4k on those satelites. 99, 101, and 103 are the likely targets for 4k.

I think 110 an 119 are all about foregin channels going forward long term.

#19 OFFLINE   Dude111

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:48 AM

I hope they dont stop braodcasting thier SD stuff... Some of us DO NOT LIKE HD and dont want to pay for it!!

#20 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:20 AM

They will at some point but not till it's cost effective which is still
Years away unfortunately.




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